Would you let a child die....

Because you didn't have training.

FFS......... this makes my blood boil. If I were to post what I though then it would be one of the biggest rants on the forum.

****ing w****ners

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7006412.stm

Police chiefs have defended two community support officers (PCSOs) who stood by as a 10-year-old boy drowned in a pond.

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Jesus freakin'.....

I can't swim worth a damn, but I would have been in there without thinking. I can't believe that this little boy was brave enough to jump in to save his stepsister, but they just stood by. It doesn't matter in the least if you're wearing a uniform or not, at that moment you need to be a human being.

That's tragic on so many levels, it's almost incomprehensible.

Gosh thats really horrible. Of course I would go in after the kid, and I can't really understand why anyone wouldn't, but wasn't the boy already out of sight underwater when the officers got there ?

I have a hard time blaming the officers for not going in after him though.

Its a sad situation, I feel really bad for his parents - they must be devastated.

I would have gone in after him, but I actually have some training in the area. The big problem with people drowning is that they are panicked and will grab onto anything to save themselves. With an unskilled swimmer attempting a save, that can result in two deaths instead of one. Still, I can’t see how you can just stand there and watch it happen.

Let me preface this by saying that I can't swim. I can paddle myself from one side of a pool to the other but in no way do I think that I have the ability to jump into somewhere and save someone who is drowning. Now would I still try, that is tough. If it were a family member or I was the only person there I probably would have done something, but to be quite honest I don't know if I would try for someone I didn't know. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't just walk on by, I would try something, but jumping in, probably not.

Since I don't know what level of training these people had or what thier specific responsabilities are in a case like this I won't pass judgement on them.

I feel for the family, but I completely disagree with the grandmother's statement. If you can't swim, you have no business going into water over your head - ever. You just compound the problem. I've done ERT (Emergency Response Team) training and been Confined Space and Safety man in many dangerous situations and you really need to use your head . I'd like to hear more of the story - not enough details.

Same situation happened in here recently. Young fellow drove his car in the water - 1st arriving officer couldn't swim nad basically had to watch him drown...what can you do?

Well fortunately the little boy was able to save his sister.

You know a similar thing happened here in the States this summer.

A six year old boy jumped into his grandparents partially filled swimming pool to save his three year old sister who had fallen in. He managed to push his sister up into the shallow end of the pool, but couldn't pull himself up as well. And since the water was only partially filled, he couldn't reach the ladders to climb out.

Sacrificed himself to save his sister.

Very sad, but there is a heroic side of the story to be happy about as well. The little boy should be remembered as a hero.

I remember back when I was in high school, there was a big story in our county about a bunch of black kids playing around this tiny shallow pond, and none of them could swim. Some were as old as their mid-teens. One fell in and started drowning. Another tried to help him, but he got pulled under as well. And so it went...I think at 3 or 4 of them died trying to save the others. At least where I grew up, there was a very big gap between blacks and whites on the swimming forefront, and this kind of thing was tragic but non entirely unheard of.

As for these officers, I don't know which way to go. On one hand, I can't say that I would have stood by while children drowned, but I'm a great swimmer. On the other hand, if you can't save them, how do you justify jumping in? If little timmy is trapped down the well, do you jump in too, knowing you can't get out? They should have ran and found someone who could swim...but jumping in knowing you'll not be able to save them if you do, that doesn't make much sense.

I don't have training....you don't need training......you just do it.

These plastic coppers are worthless...

You need to know how to swim if you are going in the water after someone.

There is no indication in that story that the officers could not swim. Only said that the "might not" have been able to swim, not that they knew they couldn't.

Very tragic accident, but why weren't the children under parental supervision? Real easy to blame the cops but where was mum?

the_bird said:

There is no indication in that story that the officers could not swim. Only said that the "might not" have been able to swim, not that they knew they couldn't.

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Like I said, not enough details about what happened. Even a weak swimmer will be in trouble trying to rescue a drowning person.

Boston said:

Very tragic accident, but why weren't the children under parental supervision? Real easy to blame the cops but where was mum?

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exactly...

Well I have no doubt.

I'd be straight in, no debate.

Too bad there wasn't another heroic eight year old boy around instead of....

I'd be in so quick you'd get a mouthful of water when you opened your mouth to ask, 'Who is that?'

orfy said:

I don't have training....you don't need training......you just do it.

These plastic coppers are worthless...

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No, you don't "just do it". Saving someone from drowning is not the same as being able to get into the water. They're thrashing around, panicking. Any lifeguard at any pool knows how to do it. The training for it is pretty intense.

So, no, it's not as simple as just doing it, any more than performing CPR is as simple as just doing it. And with this, you do have something to lose.

the_bird said:

There is no indication in that story that the officers could not swim. Only said that the "might not" have been able to swim, not that they knew they couldn't.

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If that's the case, then a pox on their souls.

Evan! said:

No, you don't "just do it". Saving someone from drowning is not the same as being able to get into the water. They're thrashing around, panicking. Any lifeguard at any pool knows how to do it. The training for it is pretty intense.

So, no, it's not as simple as just doing it, any more than performing CPR is as simple as just doing it. And with this, you do have something to lose.

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For me it is that simple.

I am trained and do know the dangers and recommended procedures but it is MY call in a situation like that.
I know the risks but regardless of that it is a case of If I see a child in trouble I'll go 200%.
I am not the kind of person who can walk on by.

I'm with you Orfy, if a kid is drowning I'm going in the water without giving it a second thought. I can swim, I'm no rescue diver or anything but I can swim better than a drowning kid so that means I'm going to try and help the kid

That's alright, well no it's not but get this:

My grandparents used to live in a lake community. Well now my sister occupies their house, anyway. One weekend we were out there and their neighbor, who has a pontoon boat casted off and started speeding to the other side of the lake. Asked where he was going he quickly shot a "Some kid drowned" over his shoulder. He was serious. They were having a church gathering at a house down the street. They decided they were going to take the boat out. Well, it was rated for about 3 adults (we have the same kind of boat, not very big).

They managed to load this boat up with about 3 adults and 4 kids (that was the initial report.) and flipped the boat. Unfortunately the ******* adults made it back to land, and 2 of the children drowned. Now, first they drowned because everyone was too chicken to save them and Second because they overloaded the damn boat.

When the question of charges was brought up, they decided not to press charges. WHAT?!?!? Are you kidding me, that's endangerment and neglect, not to mention some degree of involuntary manslaughter. The kids were even told NOT to get on the boat by their parents, but the kid didn't listen, and neither did the person on the boat. No life preservers either.

Yeah, long post i know, but it pisses me off what people try to get away with sometimes. Unfortunately they did get off the hook for some ungodly reason. Not only that but they got reports after that covered up so that it sounded like the boat wasn't overloaded. Last report i heard i was 2 adults and 2 kids...

I'm with you Cnbudz: Not only would i have been in the water the instant there was trouble i would have kicked the "police officer's" ass.

you can't tell me the cops didn't know a child was drowning. if'n you don't rush to help in a case of children in trouble you don't need to be cassified as human

He was trying to support Bethany as she struggled in the six-feet-deep water before slipping from view.

that's just drives me nuts they have jackets don't they? rant over

Things like this confirm my idea that countries should be able to sterilize certain portions of their population.

OK let me preface this by saying that I probably would have gone after the kid, too.

But one of the first things you are taught in CPR training is that you DON"T exceed your training. You do what you are trained for and keep doing it until someone more qualified arrives. Now, this is what is taught for CPR and I don't know if it would be the same for a drowning victim, but if it is, it explains why the officers didn't go in after the child. Doesn't make it any more pleasant.

It's a shame a Boy Scout was not there. The child would be alive today and those pathetic excuses for "Public Safety Officers" would be fired.

Absolutely pathetic excuses for men, and even human beings.

I'm trained in lifesaving and CPR, was a firefighter & EMT for 5 years. First thing is your own hide, but when a small child is drowning, for crying out loud. 6 ft of water, OK, if they may of been short bastards ( I can stand in 6 ft and still breath) but still, it's just a kid.

The pathetic political correctness cancer that afflicts Britain may keep these buttwipes out of jail, but their guilt will NEVER leave them.

Let me first say that I like to play devils advocate for the sake of arguement.

Someone mentioned CPR and not exceeding your limits. In the US we have what are called "Good Samaritin" laws that provide some protection to people attempting life saving techniques (i.e. You can't be arrested for assault after legitimiately giving someone the Heimlich).

However, those laws do not extend to untrained personel. In fact, case law shows the OPPOSITE, that an untrained person can do more DAMAGE than good, and when someone knowingly acts on that, they can be prosecuted criminally. (i.e. CRP breaks ribs, punctures lung = go to jail)

That said, in the US, if those officers HAD attempted a rescue and FAILED, they would have gone to jail.

Likewise, say that they HAD jumped in, and inadvertantly drown the child themselves when panic set in: how many people would be jumping on them for acting knowing they were untrained?

And finally: how the hell does one become a public safety officer without basic lifesaving training? My CPR and lifesaving lessons through the red cross took a total of 5 hours and I worked in a juvenile prison - the odds that one of them ended up in water were staggeringly low.

So would you let the child die?

orfy said:

So would you let the child die?

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I know how to swim, and even though it's been a while since my training, I think that my action in that situation would have been helpful - No, I would not let the child die, I would attempt a rescue.

HOWEVER...

I distrust all media, there's not a single media outlet that presents things factually without a spin... If they did, there would be NOTHING seperating one media outlet from any other. In this case, I simply don't have enough information to condemn OR exonerate these officers.

If someone is in that situation and has a reasonable belief that their actions will HELP, they should be morally compelled to do so. Not helping when you think you can is just shy of manslaughter, in my mind.

The opposite is true.

When someone has a REASONABLE belief that their actions will HARM someone, and does it anyway, that is immoral.

I don't know of those officers CAN swim. If they HAD jumped in, unable to swim, and they had drown the kid, I'd be FURIOUS - I'd say they would be ethically and legally responcible for that child's death.

It's not about letting a child die. It's about using your head before you make a bad situation worse. I let children die everyday - I waste my money on luxuries instead of giving to third world food programs. It's time to drop the chest thumping and bleeding heart rage and start using your heads.

Before you react as a first responder, you better be sure you are capable and have the gear to deal with the situation, whether it's a man down in a confined space, HAZMAT crisis or a drowning victim. Just 'jumping in' to any situation unprepared screams LODD (Line of Duty Death). It might be a good idea for those who think otherwise to review these kinds of situations. Start by looking at the percentage of first responder victims in water resuces, it isn't on the low side.

Maybe the critics should ask themselves - 'Would I expect a person in a wheelchair to crawl into the water?'. Because an improperly trained person in a water rescue is just as useful when it comes to getting into the water.

Water rescue ain't like baking cookies. If you've ever seen someone drown, you would know better.

I too see a lot of media spin. Seems the police are really making hay out of this one, hmmmmm I wonder why? And the family is pretty quick to point fingers elsewhere too.

Kevin Dean said:

Let me first say that I like to play devils advocate for the sake of arguement.

Someone mentioned CPR and not exceeding your limits. In the US we have what are called "Good Samaritin" laws that provide some protection to people attempting life saving techniques (i.e. You can't be arrested for assault after legitimiately giving someone the Heimlich).

However, those laws do not extend to untrained personel. In fact, case law shows the OPPOSITE, that an untrained person can do more DAMAGE than good, and when someone knowingly acts on that, they can be prosecuted criminally. (i.e. CRP breaks ribs, punctures lung = go to jail)

That said, in the US, if those officers HAD attempted a rescue and FAILED, they would have gone to jail.

Likewise, say that they HAD jumped in, and inadvertantly drown the child themselves when panic set in: how many people would be jumping on them for acting knowing they were untrained?

And finally: how the hell does one become a public safety officer without basic lifesaving training? My CPR and lifesaving lessons through the red cross took a total of 5 hours and I worked in a juvenile prison - the odds that one of them ended up in water were staggeringly low.

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Well said. That is a more descriptive version of what I was saying . Like you, I was trying to play devil's advocate. Basically, the good samaritan law says that, if you are trained in some sort of lifesaving, be it CPR or whatever, you are OBLIGATED to assist, and you are protected from prosecution. You are NOT protected if you do anything that exceeds your training. Even if you save a life you can be, and often are, sued. Such is the mess that we have in our litigious society.

All that being said, I probably would have jumped in after the child, consequenses be damned.

I agree with Edwort, this situation would have been a no-brainer for a good Boy Scout. First Aid and Emergency Preparedness were mandatory merit badges, sad that a 12 yr old scout has more lifesaving training than some of the police forces of this world. I personally am an Eagle Scout, and am CPR certified, and hell yeah I woulda jumped in. But personally I blame their municipality for not training their officers. That's just shameful.