What guage wire from main panel to spa panel?

So I've been collecting parts for my e-brewery for a few months now and I'm getting pretty close to the prize. I'm doing a build very similar to jsguitar's, with two 5500 watt elements. I will have a switch to select which element is hot, so only one element will be on at a time plus a March pump or two. The wire will have to run about 50-75 feet from the main panel to the spa panel in the garage. What size wire would you use?
Thanks!

What size breaker is in your main panel?

I haven't put one in yet.

The guage of wire needed is going to depend on the size breaker you are using. The wire gauge needs to be rated for the maximum amps your breaker can pull, even if your setup won't use all the current. If you use a 30A breaker in your main panel you can run 10ga. wire to the spa box. That is more than enough to power one element at a time. If you use a 50A breaker in the main panel 6ga. wire should be used.

The SPA Panel has a 50A GFCI breaker in it. I would suggest that you place a 50A standard breaker in your mains panel and run a 4 wire cable to a electric range 4 prong outlet in your garage. This way you will have 50 amp service available for future adventures. (Welding? Expanded brewery setup for doing back to back batches? Other stuff?)

With that said, the wire size that needs to be used has a huge depends attached to it. It depends on the cable insulation type and the wire material. i.e. - copper or aluminum wire. The cable cost would be your deciding factor for that setup. The electrical supplier (HD/Lowe's) can guide you.

If you decide to do a run for a 240V 30A outlet (dryer outlet) it also must be a 4 wire cable and a 4 wire outlet. With that I would suggest copper wire with 4 conductors, #10 gauge. The main panel breaker would be a 30A 240V breaker.

Hope this helps.

P-J

So, at a minimum, I could get by with a 30A breaker in the mains and 10/3 wire to the spa panel? Then if I jump up to a 50A in the mains, I have to use 6ga wire?

What THHN? Could I use 3 strands of that? I'm just trying to think of the most budget friendly way to do this.

Current NEC requires 4 wire cable (2 hots, neutral & ground) for ANY new wiring from your mains panel for 120V/240V service to another location. It is the code.

Please do not bet your house on it.

Wow! This is going to cost and arm and a leg! I just did a quick search for 6/4 wire and it's $356 for 100'!!

AdamCanFly said:

Wow! This is going to cost and arm and a leg! I just did a quick search for 6/4 wire and it's $356 for 100'!!

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That is in copper. Also, that is why I made the comment:

It depends on the cable insulation type and the wire material. i.e. - copper or aluminum wire.

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Copper in that size is out of site today. An Aluminum fabricated cable would be a LOT cheaper. The wire size is larger - but - muck cheaper.!!!

Ok, I'm off to search for aluminum cable. What should I be looking for?

To give you a better understanding of this whole thing you need to take a look at this wire chart -
http://www.armstrongssupply.com/wire_chart.htm
It is the best one I've been able to find as it defines the wire type, insulation type and temp range.

I sure hope this helps you.

BTW - you can also do your run to the garage in conduit and then buy single strand wire to pull through it. I don't know if that would be a better choice for you though. I can do conduit work - If I had to hire it? NO way.!

P-J

You should be able to find #6/4 Al SER cable for under $1 a foot. Not sure if Home Depot has it but your local electrical wholesaler will.

I'm might just going to end up going with the 10/4.

I'm seeing aluminum "sub feeder" cable. I'm going to have to talk to my electrician neighbor about this. Thanks for all of the help guys! I feel like I have a better understanding of this now. If someone knows of a good place to get this stuff, I'd appreciate a suggestion.

Reviving an older thread that dealt with aluminum feeder cable:
Are there draw backs to using aluminum feeder cable, if it’s the right AWG for my new e-brewery? There is a small room in my basement that was the kitchen of an illegal apartment that was there when I moved in, the stove in the kitchen was powered by an aluminum feeder cable from a 2 pole 30 amp breaker in the main panel. Should I run a new feeder to the spa panel I plan to install? My brewery will only be drawing 30amps too. I’d love to not have to drop the $$ on a new run of copper 10/4 or have to fish it the 30 feet through the ceiling to the space but I don’t want to regret not too.

The only downside to aluminum I've heard of is that it expands and contracts more than copper, so terminations can supposedly come loose easier that with copper. I haven't found this to be the case with the aluminum feeder I ran for my brewery yet, but I plan on torquing down the connections once a year or so just in case.

I'd like to know this as well. What aluminum wire and source for it would be good for 60 Amp, 50 Amp and 30 Amp runs from the main panel to a spa panel?

Looking at the chart P-J posted, I'd break it down like this:

• 60 Amp
  • AWG 3 with 60° C insulation
  • AWG 4 with 75° C insulation
  • AWG 6 with 90° C insulation
• 50 Amp
  • AWG 4 with 60° C insulation
  • AWG 6 with 75° C insulation
• 30 Amp
  • AWG 8 with 60° C insulation
  • AWG 10 with 75° C insulation

What type of wire should I look for?
Does home depot carry it?

Not sure about Home Depot, but Lowes carries 6/4 SER cable, which would be good for 50 amps.

Personally, I'd avoid the big box stores and go to your local electrical wholesaler. They'll be cheaper and should be able to cut you off a piece of the exact length you need. I got 40' for about $35 when I bought mine.

sdugre,

aluminum wire does loosen over time due to heat expansion so re-torquing your connections every year or so is a very good idea.

runs4beer

When sizing the wire you also have to take into consideration the temperature rating of the lugs that you are putting the wire into. Some are only rated for 60 degrees C but most have gone to 75 degrees now. It will say in very small letters right on the side of the lug what it's rated for. 90 degree equipment is more rare and so those ampacities will almost never be used.

Aluminum wire is also not commonly used on anything less than a 40 amp circuit anymore so smaller sizes are a little harder to find. You also need to use a product called DE-OX on the terminations of any aluminum wire that you install to prevent oxidation and heat build up due to resistance.

Also the electrical suppliers change their prices almost daily as the wire prices change whereas the box stores only change when they have to purchase a new order so it's worth checking their prices before you purchase. They will also cut to length alot of their wire.

I used 6/3 for my hot tub. Skip the aluminum stuff. Do you know a electrician or a electrical or home contractor? They can usually get you a better price thru the wholesaler.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_294914-226-...||p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&facetInfo=55.0

would this work for 50 amp service?

You can get 60 amps with that.

bendiy said:

I'd like to know this as well. What aluminum wire and source for it would be good for 60 Amp, 50 Amp and 30 Amp runs from the main panel to a spa panel?

Looking at the chart P-J posted, I'd break it down like this:

• 60 Amp
  • AWG 3 with 60° C insulation
  • AWG 4 with 75° C insulation
  • AWG 6 with 90° C insulation
• 50 Amp
  • AWG 4 with 60° C insulation
  • AWG 6 with 75° C insulation
• 30 Amp
  • AWG 8 with 60° C insulation
  • AWG 10 with 75° C insulation

What type of wire should I look for?
Does home depot carry it?

Click to expand...

one thing to point out, per nec any circuit under 100 amps is to be rated at the 60 degree column, unless all termination point are rated higher, you must always the weekest link rule b/c that is where a failure is going to happen.

now im looking forward to my ebiuld, starting collecting my parts. got my new subpanel. and picking up liquid tight and my control panel. my family keep saying "just b/c your an electrician doesnt mean you have to be all high tech and electric w brewing" i just laugh.. say i dont but when material is mostly free and i know all labor makes it a heck of a lot easier. i love reading everyones biuld threads!!!

AdamCanFly said:

I'm might just going to end up going with the 10/4.

Click to expand...

NO, you can't use 10 awg for 70ft at 240vac drawing 50A. A 5500 watt element at 240 vac draws 23 amps, you have 1 or 2 pumps (3 amps) want a RIMS or HERMS later, lights, etc? Adds up. Use a minimun of 6 awg copper or 4 awg aluminum. Also, rated for underground.

PleasantValleyHops said:

one thing to point out, per nec any circuit under 100 amps is to be rated at the 60 degree column, unless all termination point are rated higher, you must always the weekest link rule b/c that is where a failure is going to happen.

now im looking forward to my ebiuld, starting collecting my parts. got my new subpanel. and picking up liquid tight and my control panel. my family keep saying "just b/c your an electrician doesnt mean you have to be all high tech and electric w brewing" i just laugh.. say i dont but when material is mostly free and i know all labor makes it a heck of a lot easier. i love reading everyones biuld threads!!!

Click to expand...

How long are these one way runs? This is very important.

Brewbuzzard said:

How long are these one way runs? This is very important.

Click to expand...

Roughly 4 years.

Brewbuzzard said:

NO, you can't use 10 awg for 70ft at 240vac drawing 50A. A 5500 watt element at 240 vac draws 23 amps, you have 1 or 2 pumps (3 amps) want a RIMS or HERMS later, lights, etc? Adds up. Use a minimun of 6 awg copper or 4 awg aluminum. Also, rated for underground.

Click to expand...

This is an ancient thread but since you commented in such a matter of fact way that its wrong. I'll throw my 2 cents in too.
Overkill is fine for future expansion if one wants to do back to back brewing but otherwise 30a can really be more than enough.

Did you see where he stated he was only using one 5500w element at a time.... One 30a circuit was plenty for this a 5500w element draws 23a max and often less... If he has pumps he will likely just plug them into a normal 120v outlet which im sure he has in the room which is on its own wiring...(even so a chugger or march running on the same 30a line as a 5500w element still wouldnt draw the full 30a or be an issue)

I have a 30a circuit, I also use a 50a spa panel ..It does work as it should with a 30a breaker in the main box. I use 4500w elements so I can run my control panel,a 4500w element (BK OR HLT) and a 2000w rims element at the same time as one of the 4500w elements.... But wait there's more! I also can run any or all three of my 24v DC pumps which plug into my control panel as well as my stirring wand... I have used multiple load meters and have one wired in so I know im always below 30a... the most Ive ever seen it draw was 28.xx amps momentarily and that was rare.

50a is fine if you think your going to want to run 5500w elements along with larger rims elements on the same circuit at the same time but for the 10 minute time loss my 4500w elements are more than enough to boil 12-13 gallons at 80% pwm power on my pid... they only draw 18amps... plenty left over for my 240v 2000w rims... Again im just saying its very doable... Ive been doing it for almost 4 years now.

Now if this was for some sort of shed with no power at all and you wanted for some reason to run the fridge (not recommended for a gfci line BTW) lights and everything off one unbalanced at that point line? Than yeah 50a would be the way to go but its not ideal for some of the reasons I just mentioned..

Oh, I thought I saw a more current date plus, I kept getting notices in my email from homebrewtalk. I was worried the dude would burn down at a 70 ft run. That also led me to think it was to a shed or remote location. Thanks for clearing that up. Happy brewing.

Yep, AuieD' is correct. My panel uses "either or" switch logic. Many successful brews and never see more than 23 or 24 amps with 5500 element and both 120VAC pumps running...all plugged into the same "drop cord". That lost 10 mins of heating between mashout and boil, would only be a problem I'd want to solve if I were going pro, or doing back to back brews all day long.

I had most of the stuff already installed from my garage sub panel to a 50 amp welder outlet. So my ghetto brew system got hooked up for about as little cash as you can spend. I built the spa panel more like a plug in device, that just happens to get plugged into that welder outlet when I want to brew. She's securely mounted to the wall, but easily removable if a future buyer wanted "code compliance". It has it's own dedicated ground and a 30' extension that plugs into the main supply on my rolling brew cart.