lack of flavor in pale ale... wtf?

Brewed the American Pale Ale from Brewing Classic Styles. It barely had any flavor at all- very strange. After a few sips, you can taste a gentle hop bitterness, but no flavor from the late additions at all. Even the malt flavor is much less than I anticipated. Any thoughts would be helpful b/c I am unsure of where to go from here.

OG: 1.056
FG: 1.011
IBU: 45

Water: distilled
Pre-boil Vol: 7 gal

Malt:
Extra Light LME*- 8.2 lbs
Munich LME- 0.5lbs
Wheat LME- 0.5lbs

*Recipe calls for Light. LHBS only had Extra Light

Steeping:
Victory**- 0.75lbs

**Steeped in 3/4 gal water for 30 minutes at 150-160F

Hops:
Horizon(60) 0.70oz
Cascade(10) 0.5oz
Centennial(10) 0.5oz
Cascade(0) 0.5oz
Centennial(0) 0.5oz

Extras:
Servomyces(10)
Whirlfloc(10)
Clarityferm- in fermenter

Post-Boil:
Cooled with pump and immersion chiller with ice water (about 15-20 minutes).

Oxygenated with O2.

Made appropriately sized starter of Wyeast 1056. Pitched at 66F. Fermented at 68F(one week). Raised to 71F(one week). Cold crashed to 38F(one week).

Kegged and carbed to 2.5 vols.

Very confused, but hopefully someone out there has some insight for me. Thanks ahead of time!

To me, it seems like there aren't much hops in the last 10 mins for the taste you want. Most recipes with huge hop flavor add 4-5 oz in the last 0-15 mins or so.

I think you need to back those hops at 10 back to about 15 or 20. Give them more time for the oils to break down. You probably had more aroma than flavor.

tre9er said:

I think you need to back those hops at 10 back to about 15 or 20. Give them more time for the oils to break down. You probably had more aroma than flavor.

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It didn't ever have aroma. I caught a slight smell of hops during fermentation, but almost nothing once it came out of the keg.

IMHO, your recipe is heading in the direction you want.

I would cut back on your boil hops next time. Try and limit their IBU contribution to 50%. That will give you room to add in a 20 minute addition. Keep the 10 and knock out.

The next big punch is from dry hopping. I'd consider adding 1.5ozs to your keg right now.

j_dub4t said:

It didn't ever have aroma. I caught a slight smell of hops during fermentation, but almost nothing once it came out of the keg.

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You really need to dry-hop for good aroma. That or make those 0 minute hops more like whirlpool hops, ie. wait until wort cools to 150ish, then throw them in. Even so, the off-gassing of fermentation drives off hop aroma.

Move the 10m hops back to 15, up them a bit, cut the bittering hops down accordingly since you'll get more IBU's from a 15m addition. Then make those 0m hops whirlpool hops and also dry-hop in primary after you hit FG.

jammin said:

I'd consider adding 1.5ozs to your keg right now.

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This, too. Throw a hop bag in there with at least an ounce or more of hops. I cut pieces of voile cloth into squares then zip-tie or twisty-tie them closed, make sure they're not super compressed around the hops.

So far the consensus seems to be shifting around my hop schedule, and I am sure that would get me closer to what I am looking for. However, since I was trying to copy Jamil's "award-winning" recipe, I expected the recipe to be "good". I was disappointed with the lack of a malt flavor also, so I assumed that there was something inherently wrong with my process. I did use ferm-cap (which i forgot to mention above). Any thoughts on that having some sort of effect?

I was wondering if anything else stood out? Thanks for the continued feedback.

j_dub4t said:

So far the consensus seems to be shifting around my hop schedule, and I am sure that would get me closer to what I am looking for. However, since I was trying to copy Jamil's "award-winning" recipe, I expected the recipe to be "good". I was disappointed with the lack of a malt flavor also, so I assumed that there was something inherently wrong with my process. I did use ferm-cap (which i forgot to mention above). Any thoughts on that having some sort of effect?

I was wondering if anything else stood out? Thanks for the continued feedback.

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The extract you used would limit malt flavor. Up the darker extracts. Also, are you certain your hops are as fresh and high in acids/oils as the recipe? Older hops or lower concentrated hops can have an effect.

Hops were the proper alpha acids, and used Beersmith to adjust the quantities so that the IBU's would be the same as Jamil's recipe (using Rager formula).

I got the hops from Austin Homebrew Online, so I assuming they were of decent quality.

I dunno, seems like a good recipe to me. Do you like APAs? They won't taste like IPAs in terms of malt or hops. Did others taste it and have complaints?

You didn't leave out the Victory? That would add some flavor. Also, 0.5 lbs of Munich extract seems like it wouldn't do much. You can bump that up a good bit (although most APAs wouldn't use it at all).

BTW, I believe these recipes are created as all-grain and converted to extract. That's why you have things like 1/2 pound of two LMEs. That's stupid as very few places sell LME in those amounts and it doesn't store well.

j_dub4t said:

Hops were the proper alpha acids, and used Beersmith to adjust the quantities so that the IBU's would be the same as Jamil's recipe (using Rager formula).

I got the hops from Austin Homebrew Online, so I assuming they were of decent quality.

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All I can say is that sometimes you have to change recipes to your taste. Up the darker extracts, and up the later addition hops. Also consider dry-hopping. How long did you ferment? Hop aroma dissipates over time. I like my APA/IPA's young. As soon as I hit FG I raise to room-temp and dry-hop or keg...depending on the recipe.

The swap of Extra Light DME in place of Light DME will definitely have an impact on the malt profile, so that could at least partially explain that.

One thing I don't think I've seen asked though, is how long you steeped your flameout hops. Did you dump them in and immediately begin chilling, or did you dump them in, whirlpool, and then give them 20 minutes or so to steep? That will have a big impact on how much hop character the beer picks up from that flamout addition, and could be a big factor in why you're not picking up as much as you're expecting to.

stratslinger said:

The swap of Extra Light DME in place of Light DME will definitely have an impact on the malt profile, so that could at least partially explain that.

One thing I don't think I've seen asked though, is how long you steeped your flameout hops. Did you dump them in and immediately begin chilling, or did you dump them in, whirlpool, and then give them 20 minutes or so to steep? That will have a big impact on how much hop character the beer picks up from that flamout addition, and could be a big factor in why you're not picking up as much as you're expecting to.

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I'm willing to bet that this is the case, on both points.

I guess I just wasnt expecting that much of a dropoff on an extra pale vs a pale extract. Honestly, it barely tastes like there is anything there. Almost like I bought a coors light ingredient kit or something.

I know that both Jamil and Tasty are big on letting it sit for 10-20 minutes before chilling. This is certainly something that I didnt do. Great points.

And McGarnigle- I believe you may be correct about the AG to extract. Especially since some of these recipes call for English Pale LME and Rauch LME, neither of which seem to be readily available anywhere that I have looked.

It is a bit frustrating to be unsure of what is going to happen when using malt extract. Even when I contact the sellers, they are unsure as to the exact grains/amounts that are used, and how the extract was made (mash temp, etc). Makes it a bit difficult to maintain a consistent process with these unknowns.

Perhaps its time to go all-grain? Then I can only blame myself for inconsistencies.

Thanks a lot for your feedback everyone!

j_dub4t said:

It is a bit frustrating to be unsure of what is going to happen when using malt extract.

Perhaps its time to go all-grain? Then I can only blame myself for inconsistencies.

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You just described why everyone who goes all-grain makes the decision...that and cost.

j_dub4t said:

Hops were the proper alpha acids, and used Beersmith to adjust the quantities so that the IBU's would be the same as Jamil's recipe (using Rager formula).

I got the hops from Austin Homebrew Online, so I assuming they were of decent quality.

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You only adjust the bittering hops to get the same IBUs, not the flavor/aroma hops. A .5 ounce flavor or aroma addition is just that- and not to be changed due to AAUs. But it seems like you actually used more hops than in the recipe, doubling the 10 minute addition?

It's not a super hoppy recipe, but it should have some hoppy flavor and aroma from the 10 minute and 0 minute additions. I'm really puzzled.

Yooper said:

You only adjust the bittering hops to get the same IBUs, not the flavor/aroma hops. A .5 ounce flavor or aroma addition is just that- and not to be changed due to AAUs. But it seems like you actually used more hops than in the recipe, doubling the 10 minute addition?

It's not a super hoppy recipe, but it should have some hoppy flavor and aroma from the 10 minute and 0 minute additions. I'm really puzzled.

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My point was really that not all hops are created equally. We understand IBU's...I don't know that there's really a measurement for flavor from hops...but my guess is that it will vary.

First thing that jumped out to me (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) is your water type: distilled.

I know people argue that extract has minerals in it, but wouldn't you want to use spring water??

Did you have a lot of blow off during fermentation? This can cause a loss of hop flavor.

JordanThomas said:

First thing that jumped out to me (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) is your water type: distilled.

I know people argue that extract has minerals in it, but wouldn't you want to use spring water??

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agreed. Think of brewing with completely distilled water like cooking without salt. I'm sure it's not the sole cause of your problem, but the appropriate water chemistry acts as a vehicle for flavor in a beer. I realize the extract has it, but only to an extent that I believe to minimal.

But like I said, I doubt it can take 100% of the blame

bmbigda said:

agreed. Think of brewing with completely distilled water like cooking without salt. I'm sure it's not the sole cause of your problem, but the appropriate water chemistry acts as a vehicle for flavor in a beer. I realize the extract has it, but only to an extent that I believe to minimal.

But like I said, I doubt it can take 100% of the blame

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Then again, like many have mentioned before: It's hard to not go all-grain when different producers of extract likely use different ingredients. Who knows what is in those packets.

Overpitching, overaerating, overmixing and in general too vigorous fermentation will strip aroma out. I had a similar problem before and, knowing the hops were enough, results improved when fermentation slowed down. Ideally keeping a back pressure in fermenter can help too. Target is that aroma is as close as possible at beginning and of fermentation