Anyone (besides me) experience off-flavors with Safale S-04 at higher ferm temps?

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I have had two batches in a row now have a terrible off flavor, one that only gets worse with time (and I mean 6+ weeks in bottles). After a lot of head scratching and frustration and searching and process changing and new equipment, yada yada I think I have found the cause of my problem. Since I (by chance) made several process and equipment changes between the two batches, I was able to rule out many factors, including brew pot, full v. partial boils, sanitizer, and fermentors. My city water report looks great, chlorine ave is 0.77 ppm, no chloromides. One of the only common denominators is yeast and ferm temps. For both batches I used Safale S-04 which I re-hydrated in water that was boiled then cooled to 90 deg. I pitched in sub-80 deg wort then fermented in a room with ambient temp at a constant 70 deg. Ferm strip showed a max temp of 73 deg during active fermentation. Website for S-04 shows acceptable range up to 75 deg so I thought I was ok. I drank samples along various stages and I would say the off flavor did not show up until after 1 week in bottles, and then it was only slight. By week 2 it was worse and by week 3 undrinkable. I would describe the off flavor as maybe a burnt plastic or rubber taste, maybe medicinal, maybe like cloves? It seems to fit descriptions I’ve seen as phenolic. After some research I have found others with similar problems here:

Off Taste -- Fermentation temp & S-04? - Homebrewing - BeerAdvocate

Rubber Stopper Taste - Homebrewing - BeerAdvocate

Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service: Warm S04

Perpetual Homebrew Thread - Topic Powered by eve community

Interestingly, I have searched here on HBT and have not found anyone with similar results. So I thought I would post this and see if any of you out there have had this happen with this yeast.
 
Strangely enough, I haven't had a problem, though you're now making me nervous. :)

My average temp in the house is around 76-78 oF, I've pitched at 79-81 oF on two batches, one of which I'm drinking quite happily right now. The other I have fermenting (a chocolate oatmeal stout) and do not anticipate any problems.

I'm not sure about the specifics of my water supply, but I've been using water run through my faucet Britta filter.

YM(has obviously)V'ed.

I do notice that you say you rehydrated yours. I pitched mine dry into the carboy at the temps listed above, no rehydration. Both have gone off without a hitch.
 
I've had a slight solvent-like off-flavour with S-04 used at temperatures around 75, which gradually went away after bottling. Sadly, the last bottle had a delicious frutiness instead.
 
I have had great luck with my S-04 up to about 74˚F. I do my best not to exceed that, but sometimes mother nature intervenes. Soon, the cold room will be built, and my beers will ferment at the temp at which I tell them to! Insolent little badgers, the lot of them.
 
I have had great luck with my S-04 up to about 74˚F. I do my best not to exceed that, but sometimes mother nature intervenes. Soon, the cold room will be built, and my beers will ferment at the temp at which I tell them to! Insolent little badgers, the lot of them.

Chriso, how do you pitch it, dry or re-hydrated? Just curious.
 
I learned to not trust those stick on temp-o-meters after I tested a fermenting wort with a Lab Grade temp-o-stick. Mine temp-o-stick is small enough to pass through the grommet on me bucket, so I checked.

I places my wired temp-o-stick through the bung in me buckets and layzes a towel over tops and hooks the wire over the edge..

Ambient temp was 72*F. Fermentation temp was 83*F at High Krausen. Stick-on sed 75*F.

Mebe mine was faulted by mutiple dunkingz in the bath. Mebe mine was just bad but, this was proof enuf' to not go by the stick-on and it was quickly removed.

If you have the chance. I suggest you verify for yourself. some of the digital thermometers also have a " high level memory". That is, they record the highest temp monitored to memory. A cool way to verify ferm temps without having to babysit.
 
I've had some nasty burps from S-04 beers. I usually ferment at 70 or below, so I don't usually have problems with that, but other homebrewer's beers that I've tried just give me burps that make me want to chug Pepto Bismol. I know that they were fermented in the upper range too.

Just a good rule of thumb for that yeast is to try to keep it under 70.
 
The three times I've used S-04, I've fermented between 70-72 degrees. All batches came out very clean, with only the slight and desireable esters I was looking for. I also pitch dry right from the packet into the wort.
 
I have had the same nasty experiences with s-04. Awful flavors and very nasty burps. I was fermenting at room temp of probably 68 and thermometer would get up to 73 during fermentation. I figured it was ok too because of advertised temperature ranges. After a lot of ruined beer and trying to think of every possible thing it could be I have pretty much narrowed it down to the temperature and the s-04. I have been using us-05 with much better luck at that temp and even took it farther and started putting the carboy in the tub of water to keep it nice and steady in mid to upper 60's. On a side note, the last Pale Ale I brewed was left at room temp to ferment with us-05. It turned out wonderful. Nice and clean with no strange aftertastes.
 
I have had the same nasty experiences with s-04. Awful flavors and very nasty burps. I was fermenting at room temp of probably 68 and thermometer would get up to 73 during fermentation. I figured it was ok too because of advertised temperature ranges. After a lot of ruined beer and trying to think of every possible thing it could be I have pretty much narrowed it down to the temperature and the s-04. I have been using us-05 with much better luck at that temp and even took it farther and started putting the carboy in the tub of water to keep it nice and steady in mid to upper 60's. On a side note, the last Pale Ale I brewed was left at room temp to ferment with us-05. It turned out wonderful. Nice and clean with no strange aftertastes.

You must realize that some of those flavors is actually the style of the yeast. English yeast does impart some of those flavors, but if you ferment too high, they become undesirable.

I will still use S-04, but I have noticed when people do not control their fermenation temps, it definitely leads to off-flavors. It really can happen with any yeast.
 
Regardless of S-04 or not --- I would never recommend ANYONE use an estery yeast strain above 70˚F unless they know what esters they are trying to achieve from that yeast.

If you can't keep the temps under 70˚ (which, to be fair, I have trouble with too!!!) then choose to brew styles that are compatible with that - lots of clean American styles, or saisons or other heat-tolerant styles.
 
I have had the same nasty experiences with s-04. Awful flavors and very nasty burps. I was fermenting at room temp of probably 68 and thermometer would get up to 73 during fermentation. I figured it was ok too because of advertised temperature ranges. After a lot of ruined beer and trying to think of every possible thing it could be I have pretty much narrowed it down to the temperature and the s-04. I have been using us-05 with much better luck at that temp and even took it farther and started putting the carboy in the tub of water to keep it nice and steady in mid to upper 60's. On a side note, the last Pale Ale I brewed was left at room temp to ferment with us-05. It turned out wonderful. Nice and clean with no strange aftertastes.

Sounds exactly like my situation. Glad to see I'm not alone. Luckily my last three batches have all been with us-05 also. None are ready to drink yet but I have high hopes. The samples I've tasted so far have been excellent.

Regardless of S-04 or not --- I would never recommend ANYONE use an estery yeast strain above 70˚F unless they know what esters they are trying to achieve from that yeast.

If you can't keep the temps under 70˚ (which, to be fair, I have trouble with too!!!) then choose to brew styles that are compatible with that - lots of clean American styles, or saisons or other heat-tolerant styles.

I agree totally. But I just wish I knew that before now. I read Palmer's book cover to cover and did plenty more research here prior to brewing. It is not stressed as a "must", only that it will help improve taste and consistency among batches. Well, my s-04 beer needs more than just slight improvement. It is down right awful. And I think its more phenolic than estery. And like I said the mfr says its good up to 75°.

Regardless, I'm controlling my temps now, so I'm optimistic again. But even still it will be a long time before I dare to try s-04 again.
 
Well, my s-04 beer needs more than just slight improvement. It is down right awful. And I think its more phenolic than estery. And like I said the mfr says its good up to 75°.

That is quite different from my experience with S-04. I've used it 3 times, an ESB, an IPA & a Newcastle clone. Each time, I've pitched at ~64F, and kept the temp under 68F. Each brew has been quite tasty, with more fruity esters and less attenuating than US-05. I've not had any phenolics.
 
Ambient temp was 72*F. Fermentation temp was 83*F at High Krausen. Stick-on sed 75*F.

Mebe mine was faulted by mutiple dunkingz in the bath. Mebe mine was just bad but, this was proof enuf' to not go by the stick-on and it was quickly removed.

If you have the chance. I suggest you verify for yourself. some of the digital thermometers also have a " high level memory". That is, they record the highest temp monitored to memory. A cool way to verify ferm temps without having to babysit.

This is a good point, GilaMinumBeer. With any exothermic reaction, there will be a temperature gradient, and that raises the question, what temperature do we mean?
Translating into english, any heat producing reaction will have an uneven temperature distribution, just like a house with a single wood stove will be hotter near the stove and cooler further away.

I have calibrated my stickon thermometers with plain water, and they are always within a degree of my digital thermometer, so they are accurate, however, they won't tell you the highest temperature within the beer. And with experience, we can compensate for that, and I suspect this might be why a number of sources recommend fermenting at the low end of the scale.
 
This is a good point, GilaMinumBeer. With any exothermic reaction, there will be a temperature gradient, and that raises the question, what temperature do we mean?
Translating into english, any heat producing reaction will have an uneven temperature distribution, just like a house with a single wood stove will be hotter near the stove and cooler further away.

I have calibrated my stickon thermometers with plain water, and they are always within a degree of my digital thermometer, so they are accurate, however, they won't tell you the highest temperature within the beer. And with experience, we can compensate for that, and I suspect this might be why a number of sources recommend fermenting at the low end of the scale.

Yes I always wonder when someone says they fermented at xx° do they mean ambient temp (room, fermentation chamber, etc), stick on fermometer temp, or measured-inside-the-beer temp.
 
Yes I always wonder when someone says they fermented at xx° do they mean ambient temp (room, fermentation chamber, etc), stick on fermometer temp, or measured-inside-the-beer temp.

I think, generally speaking, we refer to the temperature that our fermentation device is set to.

In the case of a chest freezer or walk-in cooler, it would be the air temperature that the cooling unit is set to cool to. Any coolness absorbed by the fermenting wort would be replaced with more coolness within a reasonable amount of time.

I don't know for sure - any dissenters?

For ex, I couldn't refer to the little thermometer stick-on because I use ale pails, and it'd take AGES for the stick-on to finally register the inside temp. It'd probably just register air temp, in fact.
 
Yes I always wonder when someone says they fermented at xx° do they mean ambient temp (room, fermentation chamber, etc), stick on fermometer temp, or measured-inside-the-beer temp.

And that is the general problem. In a lab all of this would be qualified with a reference. 2 hours at 28*F, Liquid temp with digital probe. But then again, it's not like we are replicating pharmeceuticals.
 
I recently had this happen with an oatmeal stout. Used s-04 and it got up to about 72 on my sticker thermometer on the bucket. Tasted a little fruity at bottling, but after a couple weeks in the bottle i'm getting a nasty cider taste, rendering it almost undrinkable. I'm going to see if it gets any better over the next couple weeks. If it doesn't, i'm dumping that crap.
 
i learned to not trust those stick on temp-o-meters after i tested a fermenting wort with a lab grade temp-o-stick. Mine temp-o-stick is small enough to pass through the grommet on me bucket, so i checked.

I places my wired temp-o-stick through the bung in me buckets and layzes a towel over tops and hooks the wire over the edge..

Ambient temp was 72*f. Fermentation temp was 83*f at high krausen. Stick-on sed 75*f.

Mebe mine was faulted by mutiple dunkingz in the bath. Mebe mine was just bad but, this was proof enuf' to not go by the stick-on and it was quickly removed.

If you have the chance. I suggest you verify for yourself. Some of the digital thermometers also have a " high level memory". That is, they record the highest temp monitored to memory. A cool way to verify ferm temps without having to babysit.

huh?
 
He is saying the stick-on thermometer strips that many people use aren't particularly accurate or trustworthy. It is better to monitor your fermentation temps with something more trustworthy than a fermometer.
 
And I think its more phenolic than estery.

Zombie Thread... I know, but I have some amplifying information on this occurrence. I recently made an English IPA using S-04 and had similar flavor issues. The issue turned out to be source water. I was using bottled, so I assumed that it was good to go, but it turns out they use chlorine in the process. I ended up with chlorophenols (plastic/bandaid taste) that only became apparent when carbonated. Solution is to use campden tabs at .25 tab per 5 gallons of water for subsequent batches.
 
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