Water - I think I was doing it wrong

A while back I had a hard time making light beers that tasted right but stouts and porters tasted fine. After talking to some people, and having people taste the beers, I learned that I can't use my tap water to brew light beers.

After making a few batches with added gypsum and epsom salts, I bought some pH test strips. When I would check the pH, it would usually come out very low (4.6 or lower). I've since learned NOT to dip the strip directly into the mash and also that temperature affects pH reading.

I've also learned that I should be using CaCO3 to bring the mash pH back up to where it should be.

I ALSO learned that I'm supposed to be treating the sparge water as well. I asked this on HBT a few months ago but didn't get an answer.

My next beer is going to be Biermuncher's Oktoberfest. I downloaded Bru'n Water and plugged the grain bill in. Does it really only matter if a grain is base, crystal, roasted, or acid? It seems pretty broad.

What happens to my beer now is that is usually tastes fine out of the fermenter. After dry-hopping for a week in the keg it doesn't taste right. I have a Mosaic IPA that was great initially but now the hop flavor and aroma is gone, replaced by a bitter, astringent flavor. SWMBO and I both tasted it last night out of the keg and it now borders on undrinkable.

Is this because the mash pH for this batch was 4.6?

Honestly this hobby is starting to become very frustrating to me. I just cannot brew a decent IPA. If addressing the pH problem doesn't substantially improve the flavor of my IPA's I'm seriously considering giving this up. It's THAT frustrating.

For one. You can't rely on the strips. They're inaccurate. Also, I don't know who told you that you need to add chalk, for your IPA, bu they're wrong, unless you accidentally added too much acid malt or something. What base malt are you using (brand and type)? Also, you mentioned adding gypsum/epsom salts. That drops the pH SOME, but likely not nearly enough if your water brews good dark beers. You'll likely need acid / acid malt and/or dilution with RO water.

If your reading of 4.6 was using ColorpHast strips, then your mash was really around 4.9 -5.0, which is extremely high, but I wouldn't put the full blame on that just yet. (Many folks report these read 0.3 low, but I've found mine to be consistently 0.4 low).

What was your final water mineral profile after adjustments? Perhaps you simply added so much minerals that you ruined it. Whoever told you to add gypsum, chalk, and Epsom salts to adjust your pH was flatly wrong. Add acid (lactic, phosphoric, or acid malt) to adjust the mash pH. Minerals are for taste.

SpeedYellow said:

If your reading of 4.6 was using ColorpHast strips, then your mash was really around 4.9 -5.0, which is extremely high, but I wouldn't put the full blame on that just yet. (Many folks report these read 0.3 low, but I've found mine to be consistently 0.4 low).

What was your final water mineral profile after adjustments? Perhaps you simply added so much minerals that you ruined it. Whoever told you to add gypsum, chalk, and Epsom salts to adjust your pH was flatly wrong. Add acid (lactic, phosphoric, or acid malt) to adjust the mash pH. Minerals are for taste.

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Actually, 4.9-5 would be quite low. Ideally the room temp mash pH is 5.3-5.5

I left out a really key piece of information in the OP. Sorry about that. For all my pale beers, I use RO water and add salts to them.

LovesIPA said:

I left out a really key piece of information in the OP. Sorry about that. For all my pale beers, I use RO water and add salts to them.

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Do you add CaCO3 to them? If so, don't. Also, how much epsom salt do you normally add?

afr0byte said:

What base malt are you using (brand and type)?

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Great Western 2-row.

SpeedYellow said:

What was your final water mineral profile after adjustments? Perhaps you simply added so much minerals that you ruined it. Whoever told you to add gypsum, chalk, and Epsom salts to adjust your pH was flatly wrong. Add acid (lactic, phosphoric, or acid malt) to adjust the mash pH. Minerals are for taste.

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I understand the Gypsum and Epsom won't affect the pH much but I thought chalk does because of the carbonate.

Here is the water profile for the IPA I was talking about:

Ca: 82.1
Mg: 17.7
Na: 8.0
Sulfate: 265.7
Chloride: 4.0
Bicarbonate: 16.0
Total hardness: 278

Mash volume was 4.7 gallons. I added 3.2g MgSO4 and 6.2g CaSO4.

The grain bill was 14 lbs 2-row, .5 lbs carapils and .5 lbs biscuit.

According to Bru'N water my mash pH was 5.3.

LovesIPA said:

Great Western 2-row.



I understand the Gypsum and Epsom won't affect the pH much but I thought chalk does because of the carbonate.

Here is the water profile for the IPA I was talking about:

Ca: 82.1
Mg: 17.7
Na: 8.0
Sulfate: 265.7
Chloride: 4.0
Bicarbonate: 16.0
Total hardness: 278

Mash volume was 4.7 gallons. I added 3.2g MgSO4 and 6.2g CaSO4.

The grain bill was 14 lbs 2-row, .5 lbs carapils and .5 lbs biscuit.

According to Bru'N water my mash pH was 5.3.

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You say the beers become worse in the keg. Are you sure you're not just overcarbonating? Also, do you purge your kegs with CO2 before transferring to them? Your mash pH is likely OK based on that water profile / grain bill. Do you have a TDS meter to make sure your RO source is actually low in minerals? Maybe the membrane needs replacing.

afr0byte said:

You say the beers become worse in the keg. Are you sure you're not just overcarbonating?

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Yes. I kegged two beers on the same day. One the dry-hopped IPA and the other centennial blonde (not dry-hopped). I burst carb'd them for 24 hours at 30 psi and dialed them back to about 12. The blonde is perfect now and the IPA is undercarb'd still because it was at room temp for dry-hopping. It needs another few days to get the carbonation level right.

Also, do you purge your kegs with CO2 before transferring to them?

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Absolutely.

Your mash pH is likely OK based on that water profile / grain bill. Do you have a TDS meter to make sure your RO source is actually low in minerals? Maybe the membrane needs replacing.

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I don't have a TDS meter. I buy the water from Glacier RO water vending machines which are serviced every few days around here.

LovesIPA said:

I don't have a TDS meter. I buy the water from Glacier RO water vending machines which are serviced every few days around here.

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It might not hurt to get one. They're pretty cheap.

Also, I saw you mention treating sparge water. Are you also using RO water for that?

afr0byte said:

Also, I saw you mention treating sparge water. Are you also using RO water for that?

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Yes I am.

Hasn't been answered: The base/crystal/roasted/acid is absolutely critical. They all affect PH in different ways. I use gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom salt), and liquid acid for my additions. The first three give me the mineral profile I want, and the last one helps with PH.

PS, I also use glacier water from the kiosk for my brews and build it up with my mineral additions. Less sulfate for lighter beers/lagers, more for IPAs sounds like you have the basics though...

LovesIPA said:

Yes I am.

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Perhaps you could describe the "bitter/astringent flavor" a bit better? Normally any IPA i've done will get a bit less bitter/astringent over time.

Also, depending on the acidity level of Great Western, you might need acid. With Rahr and that grain bill / water profile you'd probably be OK pH-wise. You say your blonde tastes good though...which presumably has as a similar grain bill. How clear is your IPA?

jbaysurfer said:

Hasn't been answered: The base/crystal/roasted/acid is absolutely critical.

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I figured as much, but how do I know how to categorize certain malts? Like victory, biscuit, Special B, or carapils?

They all affect PH in different ways. I use gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom salt), and liquid acid for my additions. The first three give me the mineral profile I want, and the last one helps with PH.

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I don't use CaCl. Maybe I need to add that to my process.

PS, I also use glacier water from the kiosk for my brews and build it up with my mineral additions. Less sulfate for lighter beers/lagers, more for IPAs sounds like you have the basics though...

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That's pretty much what I do but I never messed with pH because I don't have a reliable method for measuring it.

afr0byte said:

Perhaps you could describe the "bitter/astringent flavor" a bit better? Normally any IPA i've done will get a bit less bitter/astringent over time.

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It tasted great out of the fermenter. I dry-hopped it in the keg and tasted it a few days later. The dry hops were really pronounced and while it was warm and flat, it tasted balanced with good hop flavor/aroma. After a few more days the bitterness and flavor faded somewhat, and the beer took on a malty-sweet flavor, like not enough bittering hops were used (I used 1.4 oz of Summit @60 min).

Right now, it's gross. No hop flavor or aroma to speak of. It smells harsh and maybe a little medicinal. It leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth. It kinda tastes like beer but it's nothing I would want to drink.

This flavor is why I started looking at water chemistry to begin with. I didn't like the way my IPAs were coming out. I've spent a lot of time trying to get this part of the process down and it's very frustrating to still have problems like this 30+ batches out.

afr0byte said:

Also, depending on the acidity level of Great Western, you might need acid. With Rahr and that grain bill / water profile you'd probably be OK pH-wise. You say your blonde tastes good though...which presumably has as a similar grain bill. How clear is your IPA?

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The IPA was very clear before I dry-hopped it. Now it's a little cloudy but pretty much in line with a commercial dry-hopped unfiltered IPA.

Here's the recipe:

5.4 gallons post-boil

Mash with 4.7 gallons of RO water
3.2g MgSO4
6.2g CaSO4
Mashed @147.7 for 1:45
Sparge with 4.4 gallons of RO water
(neglected to note whether I treated the sparge water or what I treated it with)

14 lbs GW 2-row
8 oz Biscuit malt
8 oz Carapils

83.9% efficiency

1.4 oz 14.2% AA Summit pellets at 60 min
1.0 oz 12.7% AA Mosaic pellets at 15 min
1.0 oz 12.7% AA Mosaic pellets at 1 min

OG 1.078

Dry hop with 1.0 oz Mosaic

FG 1.015

LovesIPA said:

It tasted great out of the fermenter. I dry-hopped it in the keg and tasted it a few days later. The dry hops were really pronounced and while it was warm and flat, it tasted balanced with good hop flavor/aroma. After a few more days the bitterness and flavor faded somewhat, and the beer took on a malty-sweet flavor, like not enough bittering hops were used (I used 1.4 oz of Summit @60 min).

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Hmm, I notice that at a lower carbonation level my bitter beers become a bit more malty temporarily. I don't know if "a few days later" means partially carbed in your case, though.

Right now, it's gross. No hop flavor or aroma to speak of. It smells harsh and maybe a little medicinal. It leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth. It kinda tastes like beer but it's nothing I would want to drink.

This flavor is why I started looking at water chemistry to begin with. I didn't like the way my IPAs were coming out. I've spent a lot of time trying to get this part of the process down and it's very frustrating to still have problems like this 30+ batches out.

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It certainly seems like a tough thing to diagnose. The only thing I can think of, since you mention medicinal, is maybe an infection from reusing a hop bag, or perhaps you're leaching some chlorine from a PVC hose used in racking, and the dry hopped beers, which would have more polyphenols to bind to, are causing the medicinal flavor to become apparent.

I could also describe the flavor as slightly citrusy in aroma and tart/sour in flavor, but not in a sour-beer way. It doesn't taste anything like a sour or infected beer.

I dry-hopped with a stainless steel mesh container.

LovesIPA said:

I could also describe the flavor as slightly citrusy in aroma and tart/sour in flavor, but not in a sour-beer way. It doesn't taste anything like a sour or infected beer.

I dry-hopped with a stainless steel mesh container.

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The tart/sour could be from the magnesium. I'd leave out the epsom salts for sure.

A mash pH from that grain bill of 5.3 sounds perfect. In that water sheet above, with 278 ppm TDS, where did that figure come from?

Yooper said:

The tart/sour could be from the magnesium. I'd leave out the epsom salts for sure.

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It supposedly gave me 18ppm of Mg in the mash water, which is right in line with what Palmer recommends. I have another question in this forum about Palmer vs. Bru'N Water on "ideal" bicarbonate level too.

Do I really not need any Mg?

A mash pH from that grain bill of 5.3 sounds perfect. In that water sheet above, with 278 ppm TDS, where did that figure come from?

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That figure came from the Bru'N Water spreadsheet.

LovesIPA said:

It supposedly gave me 18ppm of Mg in the mash water, which is right in line with what Palmer recommends. I have another question in this forum about Palmer vs. Bru'N Water on "ideal" bicarbonate level too.

Do I really not need any Mg?



That figure came from the Bru'N Water spreadsheet.

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Malt has plenty of magnesium. You don't need it. Some people like to add it to sharpen that slight bitter/sour perception but I'm not a fan of it. Of course, 18 ppm isn't much so it probably doesn't matter for this.

Firstly, for an IPA with a OG of 1.078 you're going to need quite a bit more hops. I can see why you might get flavors more towards malty. I'd add at least a few more ounce in your late hop additions. And to get really good aroma you'll need at least 3 oz for dry hopping. Look through the recipe database for a good IPA for comparison. You'll see that they use much more hops. Take a look at the Pliny the Elder clone - it uses quite a bit of hops, but it gives you an idea of how much you might add.
Secondly, you need to either treat your sparge water or add minerals to the boil kettle to get the final desired mineral profile. brunwater will give you these amounts when you enter your mash addition values.

LovesIPA said:

Here's the recipe:

5.4 gallons post-boil

Mash with 4.7 gallons of RO water
3.2g MgSO4
6.2g CaSO4
Mashed @147.7 for 1:45
Sparge with 4.4 gallons of RO water
(neglected to note whether I treated the sparge water or what I treated it with)

14 lbs GW 2-row
8 oz Biscuit malt
8 oz Carapils

83.9% efficiency

1.4 oz 14.2% AA Summit pellets at 60 min
1.0 oz 12.7% AA Mosaic pellets at 15 min
1.0 oz 12.7% AA Mosaic pellets at 1 min

OG 1.078

Dry hop with 1.0 oz Mosaic

FG 1.015

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slarkin712 said:

Firstly, for an IPA with a OG of 1.078 you're going to need quite a bit more hops. I can see why you might get flavors more towards malty. I'd add at least a few more ounce in your late hop additions. And to get really good aroma you'll need at least 3 oz for dry hopping. Look through the recipe database for a good IPA for comparison. You'll see that they use much more hops. Take a look at the Pliny the Elder clone - it uses quite a bit of hops, but it gives you an idea of how much you might add.

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The recipe doesn't matter. Nearly every IPA I've ever brewed has come out this way. It doesn't matter if it's a proven clone recipe, a multiple gold medal winner, or one I made up on brew day.

I've attributed the off-flavor to a lot of things over the last year. First I thought it was hot side aeration. I bought some equipment and changed my wort collection technique. No change. Then I thought I was oxidizing it post-fermentation and I replaced my racking cane and purged the kegs with CO2. No change. Then I thought it was water, so I bought water jugs and filled them with RO water. I made spreadsheets and spent hours educating myself on how to do water salt calculations. No change. Then I thought it was because I was using crystal malts in my IPA recipes. Now I use base, carapils, and some victory or biscuit. No change. Then I thought it was a contaminated CO2 cylinder - I'm still convinced this was partly to blame - and since tasting this last batch I'm completely out of ideas.

Secondly, you need to either treat your sparge water or add minerals to the boil kettle to get the final desired mineral profile. brunwater will give you these amounts when you enter your mash addition values.

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Looking back through all my recipe notes, I've brewed exactly two good IPAs. One was my first ever batch, an extract Racer 5 clone. It was excellent. The second was a Pliny the Elder clone which was my first all-grain brew (I jumped into all-grain very quickly). Again it was excellent.

I used Crystal Geyser bottled water for those two brews. Everything else was either tap water (on the advice of another brewer who assured me my tap water was fine for any style of beer - now I know how wrong that statement is) or RO water built up with salts.

I must be doing something wrong but I have no idea what it is.

Here's another data point. I've brewed several wheat beers, all of which came out great. I used RO water treated with CaSO4 and MgSO4 for all of them.

Stouts and porters also come out great. For some reason I just can't get an IPA to taste anything like an IPA.

Again everything tastes fine out of the fermenter. It's only after it gets packaged (kegs AND bottles) that they start to taste bad.

You haven't mentioned how high you've taken the calcium and sulfate for those IPA's. Having a high level of those ions improves the flavor of my IPA's and PA's. With that high level of calcium, there probably is a need for a little alkalinity in the mashing water. The reason for the alkalinity need is that the high calcium content really depresses the RA of the water. Chalk is definitely not suitable for adding alkalinity, but pickling lime and baking soda are.

And although some have poo-poo'd the idea of adding magnesium to the water, I feel that it is a very important contributor to the crispness and bitterness in a style like IPA. The 18 ppm is NOT going to contribute off flavors in that style. Now if you were to double that concentration, then you might be playing with fire. For less bitter styles, leaving out the magnesium is OK.

Although you mention that the RO vending machine is 'serviced' frequently, it still does not mean that it is producing water with very low mineralization. Employing a TDS meter is your best way of providing a quick check of the machine's performance. Anyone using RO water should have a meter.

LovesIPA said:

Looking back through all my recipe notes, I've brewed exactly two good IPAs. One was my first ever batch, an extract Racer 5 clone. It was excellent. The second was a Pliny the Elder clone which was my first all-grain brew (I jumped into all-grain very quickly). Again it was excellent.

I used Crystal Geyser bottled water for those two brews. Everything else was either tap water (...) or RO water built up with salts.

I must be doing something wrong but I have no idea what it is.

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Stick with the Crystal Geyser water and a tried & true clone recipe. cheers!

I am by no means an expert but:

I would guess contamination since the "medicinal" comment and the fact that earlier beers tasted better. You said you brewed other beers that tasted great, are you still able to reproduce them? I would take some time and think about how your sanitation changed from beginning to now. Any old brewing equipment?

I used to use test strips before. Lets just say they were WAY off from the laboratory water report. Not even close.

When I brew my IPAs I use considerably more hops ~8 oz (0.5 FWH, 3.5 in last 20m, 4 dry-hopped) in a 5g batch. I love the hop flavor, but I probably use too much... I will also say your sulfate level is a lot higher than mine. It could be causing your beer to taste very astringent like you said.

Lastly and most important. What are your fermentation temps like. I had a dubbel get too hot and I couldn't really tell there was a problem until after I carbed it. It was great out of the fermentor.

The good thing is that IPAs are everywhere. If your like me you are saturated with commercial IPAs but not much else.