How to Reduce Chloride

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wobrien

wobrien

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Here is my Ward Labs report for Plymouth Meeting, PA:

pH - 8.1
Na - 4.3
K - 2
Ca - 73
Mg - 30
CaCO3 - 308
Nitrate - 16.4 (adj)
Sulfate - 24 (adj)
Cl - 113
CO3 - 9
HCO3 - 257
T.Alkalinity - 226

I'm new to water chemistry and my first thoughts are that Cl is high, Sulfates are low, Ca is good and Alkalinity is high.

I'd like to raise sulfates and lower chloride, but where I get confused is, if I dilute with distilled or RO water, how do I add back more sulfates than Ca? Is it possible to reduce Cl any way other than dilution? I'd like to avoid having to buy water for every brew, but it's looking to me like I will need to...
 
According to Palmer, up to 250ppm of Chloride is generally acceptable in brewing water, so I wouldn't be concerned about it.

The 2 things I notice about your water are: (1) your sulfate is low, which leads to a high chloride to sulfate ratio, which favors malty flavors. I think you're on the right track in trying to raise your sulfate content in order to balance this out (depending on the style you're brewing). (2) your Mg level is right at the upper end of Palmer's recommended range (10-30).

There are 2 ways to increase sulfate that I'm aware of: add Gypsum (which will also increase calcium level, but that's ok with your water) or Epsom Salt (which will also increase Mg level, which is not ok with your water).

So here's what I'd do: for malty beers, I'd add 2g of Gypsum. For hoppy beers, I'd add 3g (assuming 5gal batch size). You can use a spreadsheet like EZ Water if you want to get more tailored than that.
 
You definitely want to keep your chloride under 100 ppm, and often lower than that. Your alkalinity is too high as well, so the best way to deal with that is to dilute your tap water 50% with RO water or distilled water. I like RO water because it is easy to buy from those "water machines" at the grocery stores and it's pretty cheap. I think I paid $1.50 for 4 gallons. That will also lower your magnesium so it would be a good idea to do that.

Anyway, then the way to increase calcium and sulfate is to add some gypsum to the brewing water.

It's easy to do, and we can help you with navigating a spreadsheet to get the additions just right.

Just adding more gypsum to that water wouldn't work out very well, as you'd still have to much chloride and you'd have a very "minerally" taste in the finished beer.
 
Not surprisingly, looks like Yooper is correct. I just checked his newer book "Water", and Palmer recommends keeping Chloride under 100.

Sorry man, looks like you're in "dilute with RO" country.
 
Ok, thank you for the replies. So in navigating Bru'n Water for the first time, I chose a yellow bitter water profile for an IPA:
11# 2-row
2# Vienna
0.5# Cara-pils
0.5# C60

I used Yooper's recommendation of 50% RO dilution and added 1g/gal gypsum and 5 mL/gal phosphoric acid (10% strength).

According to the spreadsheet I get:
Ca - 98.4
Mg - 15
Sulfate - 160
Cl - 58.5
Alkalinity - 45
Estimated Mash pH - 5.4

These numbers all look good, right?

Another question jumps out at me. 25 mL of Phosphoric acid for the 5gal of strike water, but another 53 mL for the 4 gal of sparge water? Does that sound right?
 
That water profile looks great.

Did you use the "sparge acidification" part of bru'nwater to come up with the 53 ml of phosphoric acid for the sparge water? If so, that would be about right off of the top of my head. Or, you can sparge with 100% RO water and not acidify it at all.
 
Yooper said:
That water profile looks great.

Did you use the "sparge acidification" part of bru'nwater to come up with the 53 ml of phosphoric acid for the sparge water? If so, that would be about right off of the top of my head. Or, you can sparge with 100% RO water and not acidify it at all.
Click to expand...

I did, but I notice that the sparge acidification tab comes before water adjustment, so it does not take into account the 50% dilution with RO water. Is there a reason for that?
 
Yooper's correct. If you can just sparge with R/O then you can forget the acid in the sparge water - there isn't much chance for the pH to rise too high. Remember that the acid is knocking out the alkalinity first - then lowering the pH.

I was going to run your numbers in Bru'n, but I cannot get your water profile to balance. Are you sure the numbers are transcribed correctly? On the Water Input page, you should see the Cation/Anion Difference box in the Ion Balance Results section. After reviewing your numbers again - I show a 2.12 meq/L difference. Is this what you are seeing? That value minimally should be under 0.5 meq/L. This is an indicator of the validity of the test results.

Above the ion concentrations of your Ward report, there should be a line that reads Cations/Anions, me/L - what are the two values they provide? Are they close to the values in the Ion Balance Results section of Bru'n?

Perhaps Martin or AJ can weigh in. Depending on their advice, I might ask Ward to retest so you can have an accurate starting point.
 
mchrispen said:
Are you sure the numbers are transcribed correctly?QUOTE]

I noticed this as well because it was only a 0.4 difference on the lab report. As it turns out, I did transcribe it incorrectly and my sodium number is actually 43ppm. Nice catch, thank you.

Even with that error, the numbers still look good. Another question that I have is, do you add the gypsum and acid in the mash tun, or to the water ahead of time and does it make a difference?
Click to expand...
 
Thanks, I need the practice like everyone. That did the trick.

do you add the gypsum and acid in the mash tun, or to the water ahead of time and does it make a difference?
Click to expand...

For what it is worth, I add the gypsum addition into the ground grist before I dough in. As for the liquid acid - I add after dough in, and after verification that it is required with a pH meter. When doing this - I see the mash pH settle within the first few minutes and very minor changes after that unless I manipulate it.

Since you are adding in a moderate amount of acid, consider adding half, stirring like crazy (or recirc), measuring and then adding half again - rinse repeat until you hit your 5.4 target. That may hurt your strike temperature though - depending on your process. A mini test mash may help you dial that in and have the confidence to add it all at once.

Rather than confusing things relative to the target profile - let me recommend that you brew with your proposed profile, then test your finished beer with this batch by adding in measured doses of dissolved gypsum and tasting. This will give you a better idea of where your preference and threshold is for gypsum and you can scale your preferred addition for the next time your brew your IPA. Some people prefer much less than 100 ppm - while others will go over 500 ppm. I have replicated a brew using just short of the levels in the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n and found that to my liking than Yellow Bitter. That dosing exercise (often recommended by AJ and Martin) was very telling to me.

Best of luck!
 
Gypsum dissolves better in cold water, so it's usually best to add it to your strike water before heating. I always do it at the same time that I add the campden.
 
wobrien said:
I did, but I notice that the sparge acidification tab comes before water adjustment, so it does not take into account the 50% dilution with RO water. Is there a reason for that?
Click to expand...

I assume you are using the free version of Bru'n Water. The information on the Water Acidification sheet does not know about your dilution and its effect on alkalinity. The supporters version does allow you to dial in dilution with RO or distilled water and the alkalinity is automatically revised. But you will have to do that revised alkalinity calculation yourself when using the free version.

I am assuming you are either brewing a very large batch or you are using low strength phosphoric acid. That just seemed like a lot of acid for a 5 gal batch, but its OK if using the 10% stuff.
 
mabrungard said:
I assume you are using the free version of Bru'n Water. The information on the Water Acidification sheet does not know about your dilution and its effect on alkalinity. The supporters version does allow you to dial in dilution with RO or distilled water and the alkalinity is automatically revised. But you will have to do that revised alkalinity calculation yourself when using the free version.



I am assuming you are either brewing a very large batch or you are using low strength phosphoric acid. That just seemed like a lot of acid for a 5 gal batch, but its OK if using the 10% stuff.
Click to expand...


Yes, the free version, I'm just getting my feet wet into the water chemistry world.

And also yes, phosphoric acid (10%)
 
So I brewed a pale ale this morning. I didn't have easy access to RO water last night so I used distilled water. Diluted my tap water 50/50 for the 5 gallons of strike water, and 3.5 gallons straight distilled for the batch sparge.

Used 5grams of gypsum and 30ml phosphoric acid in the strike water, nothing in the sparge water

Measured the pH 15 min into the mash and got 5.17 at room temp. Measured again 30 min into mash and got 5.15.

I was expecting 5.4 pH. However, I estimated the 30mL of acid to be two table spoons and so that measurement was not very exact. I need to get a syringe or something to make better acid measurements.

Anyway, how will the lower pH affect the beer?
 
Confused why the liquid acid went into the strike water, and not in steps into the mash? For both liquid acid and alkaline (pickling lime or baking soda) additions, I add a portion, stir, check mash pH and add more in required. That way I don't overshoot. I can't confirm right now, but 30 ml of phosphoric seems excessive with the large amount of gypsum. Double check your mash and sparge volumes in the spreadsheet, including the mash adjustment tab.

The low pH might affect your hop utilization a bit. Nothing you can do at this stage. You are just a bit low from the optimum range.
 
mchrispen said:
Confused why the liquid acid went into the strike water, and not in steps into the mash? For both liquid acid and alkaline (pickling lime or baking soda) additions, I add a portion, stir, check mash pH and add more in required. That way I don't overshoot. I can't confirm right now, but 30 ml of phosphoric seems excessive with the large amount of gypsum. Double check your mash and sparge volumes in the spreadsheet, including the mash adjustment tab.

The low pH might affect your hop utilization a bit. Nothing you can do at this stage. You are just a bit low from the optimum range.
Click to expand...


Well, I had never made water adjustments before, had never used a ph meter before, so I was trying to make the steps simple as possible for the first time. Plus I was mashing in a cooler outside in 33* weather, so I didn't want to have the lid open longer than necessary.

Next time I intend to use better measurements and your suggested methodology. If hop utilization is my only worry, I should still be in much better shape than before I treated my water.

Does/how does pH affect efficiency? My efficiency dropped about 10 percentage points with this brew. I get my grain crushed by the LHBS so that always seems to vary a bit, but this was lower than normal.

Thanks for the insight.
 
Wobrien, sorry wasn't trying to be snarky.

I just ran your numbers, best I could, including a 50% dilution of 5 gallons of mash water volume with distilled. Added in 1 gram/gallon & 6 ml/gallon 10% phosphoric and got the same prediction. I have some process suggestions.

1. Consider a small test mash. I have been doing 1 gallon sized batches on the stove to trial new hops as well as refine my salt additions. It is also more convenient to work out your pH procedures on smaller batches where the apparent risk is less. I also use these as starters for the "real" batch.
2. Outside the mineral additions in the strike water (save the pickling lime or baking soda for dough in), I reserve the liquid acid to make adjustments and try to achieve my target in 2 additions, rather than one shot. There is a lot going on in the mash that no spreadsheet can predict with absolute accuracy. This will also require you to be much more precise in your additions... I check at dough in, and at 5 minutes. This gives me an idea of what is going on. If I have calculated I need 10 ml, I will add half, stir like mad, sample, and determine if I need to add more.
3. Remember that mash pH is a range so hitting your absolute pH isn't terribly critical, so you can relax a bit. That said - temperature as well as pH plays a key role in conversion. If you mashed outdoors in such cold - I am betting your mash cooled a bit. Lower temperatures will require extended mash times. That *may* have affected your efficiency - but check the crush as well. Also - how your sparge can make a huge difference - and you can seek advice to optimize that process.
4. Calibrate/check your thermometer and your pH meter. In such cold weather - it is possible that you may have calibrated or measured too cold.

Keep at it - it can be a bit daunting at first, but the stress goes away with preparation, planning and experience. You should see the results in the finished beer getting better.

And for goodness sake! Stay warm!
 
mchrispen said:
Wobrien, sorry wasn't trying to be snarky.
Click to expand...
No worries, I didn't even take it that way anyway

mchrispen said:
I check at dough in, and at 5 minutes. This gives me an idea of what is going on. If I have calculated I need 10 ml, I will add half, stir like mad, sample, and determine if I need to add more.
Click to expand...

I pulled a sample, then put it in the freezer to cool it as quickly as possible to room temp, the tested it. Took about ten minutes per sample. I worry that if there's an issue with the pH, I'd be halfway through the mash by the time I took my second sample...

mchrispen said:
3. Remember that mash pH is a range so hitting your absolute pH isn't terribly critical, so you can relax a bit. That said - temperature as well as pH plays a key role in conversion. If you mashed outdoors in such cold - I am betting your mash cooled a bit. Lower temperatures will require extended mash times. That *may* have affected your efficiency - but check the crush as well. Also - how your sparge can make a huge difference - and you can seek advice to optimize that process.
Click to expand...

I mashed in at 150 and after 75 min I was at 148. I wrap the cooler with a sleeping bag and it holds the temp pretty well :)

mchrispen said:
4. Calibrate/check your thermometer and your pH meter. In such cold weather - it is possible that you may have calibrated or measured too cold.
Click to expand...

I used a Hanna pHep5 with the temp probe. I calibrated before both samples as well. I did the ph testing inside the house.

Sorry for the basic questions, I promise they'll get more difficult with my next few batches, haha.
 
Something to consider...

You only need 1 ounce or so in a shot glass. I keep a steel bowl nested in ice (snow would work) in another bowl. Toss an ounce or two of mash liquid, swirl to cool. Decant onto the shot glass, take the temp, then the pH twice. Record the result.

Takes me about a minute, unless I have recalibrate for some reason.

You can use the later samples with iodine to test for conversion.
 

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