refining a recipe; my IPA

finally realized what it was about the flavor of my IPA that I was unhappy about. I've got too much Northern Brewer in it and it's imparting a slightly grassy flavor. (SMMBO swears I'm crazy and there is no grassy taste, but I'm sure of it.)

I never put my finger on it before because I had been using pellets, and the aroma isn't as apparent with those as it is with whole hops. Tonight, I was mixing up my 'hops salad' that I use DFH-style for continuous hopping and I was using the whole hops I just got from hopsdirect.com. After I added the NB to the salad I I noticed the aroma that matches the flavor I am hot happy with.

Unfortuatly, the hops salad was already mixed at this point, and I went ahead and used it, but I definately know what to change the next time.

I almost want to start another batch ASAP and run them in parallel.

Call it a science experiment, a ''control'' batch if you need to justify it to anyone. I think just having another fermenter that is going empty is enough justification personally.

Maestro Brewsmith said:

Call it a science experiment, a ''control'' batch if you need to justify it to anyone. I think just having another fermenter that is going empty is enough justification personally.

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EXACTLY!

-walker

Just send me some of the "experiment" for analysis. I will need both to compare.

Actually, I cut your hops with bermuda grass clippings when I was sealing them up...that's probably where the grassy aroma is coming from. I kept my shiznit pure.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Actually, I cut your hops with bermuda grass clippings when I was sealing them up...that's probably where the grassy aroma is coming from. I kept my shiznit pure.

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Nice try, BvB, but the pillow of Norther Brewer never left my house. That "pound" (I use the term loosely since hopdsirect measures out 20 to 30 ounce 'pounds') is all mine.

-walker

Can we see the profile for this beer?

glibbidy said:

Can we see the profile for this beer?

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By 'profile', do you mean 'recipe'?

7 lbs extra light DME
1 lb crystal 10L
0.5 oz columbus @60 (I normally use Chinook or Galena, but I had a tiny bit of Columbus and decided to use it this time.)

then, I mix up 2 oz of cascade and 2 oz of NB in a big salad bowl. I portion this out into 7 piles (appx 0.57 oz/pile). Starting at T-minus 30 minutes, and every 5 minutes after this, I toss in one pile. Last pile goes in at flame-out.

(It comes out to about 45 IBUs according to the recipator, but TASTES like more than this.)

I start my boil 3.5 gallons, and lose about 1 gallon over the course of the hour.

Cool the wort, filter into carboy (which was pretty hard this last time since it was the first time I had ever use 100% whole hops in this recipe... lots of leaves in there!), aerate Manly-Style (pick up carboy and shake like hell), top off to 5.5 gallons, pitch my 1056, add airlock, stick in brew-fridge @ 65°F, let nature take it's course.

After racking to the secondary, I dry hop with another 1 oz of cascades.

EDIT: NEXT TIME I am going to use 3 oz of cascade and 1 oz of NB in my salad.

-walker

hmmm.... I've spent the last 30 minutes or so searching the web for flavor profile descriptions of Northern Brewer.

My opinion (from using pellets) was that it was a piney/minty flavor, and this is basically the same thing I am reading from all the sources I have found on-line.

However, I swear the whole hops smelled grassy last night when I was brewing them, and the batch of Kaduva IPA that I am drinking seems slightly grassy in my opinion.

Maybe I'm going crazy or something since SWMBO doesn't taste any grassy tones.

BOSTONBREWIN': you've had some of my IPA. Do you detect anything grassy in it?

If the grassy taste is not coming from the NB, maybe I'm dry-hopping too long? I've read that this can lead to grassy flavors, too. FYI: I use 1 oz of cascade and I put it in immediately after racking to the secondary, so they are generally floating around in my IPA for about 2 weeks before bottling.

I need to take better notes of my tasting at racking time. I'll have to pay careful attention this time to see if I detect any grassy tones prior to adding the dry-hops.

-walker

Yeah profile = recipe

Thinking outside the box here. I can't say that I can think of any hops that may impart a grassy flavor. Although fuggles reminds me of a wet horse blanket, reminiscent of so many belgian beers I have had.

I have heard that sometimes malt derivatives can lead to a hay like taste. Would you consider grassy and haylike similar?

But onto the hops.
Consider this for next time.
Try increasing the hops in your kettle addition (something with lower alpha acids say around 6.5-7.5) and strive for at least 25 IBU's

You could also swap out some or all of the NB for Centennial. Omitting the NB would take away the raisin/piney taste, and give you more of a citrus taste. I think you might be suprised with the results if you used a Centennial/Cascade combo.

glibbidy said:

Yeah profile = recipe

Thinking outside the box here. I can't say that I can think of any hops that may impart a grassy flavor. Although fuggles reminds me of a wet horse blanket, reminiscent of so many belgian beers I have had.

I have heard that sometimes malt derivatives can lead to a hay like taste. Would you consider grassy and haylike similar?

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Yeah, I would say grassy == haylike. I doubt it's my malt extract, because I use the same extract for all of my beers, and only the IPA has this issue. Thus... is HAS to be coming from the hops. The only other malt in there is the 10L crystal, and I'm sure it's not that.

glibbidy said:

But onto the hops.
Consider this for next time.
Try increasing the hops in your kettle addition (something with lower alpha acids say around 6.5-7.5) and strive for at least 25 IBU's

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I'm fine with the IBUs I get out of this. It's just the grassy/haylike thing I am trying to eliminate. (And there is still debate on whether there IS a grassy taste... I'm the only one that has noticed it.)

glibbidy said:

You could also swap out some or all of the NB for Centennial. Omitting the NB would take away the raisin/piney taste, and give you more of a citrus taste.

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I actually WANT the piney taste. That's the exact reason I have NB in there.

glibbidy said:

I think you might be suprised with the results if you used a Centennial/Cascade combo.

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I've been considering using Centennial, and probably will at some point.

-walker

glibbidy said:

Yeah profile = recipe
But onto the hops.
Consider this for next time.
Try increasing the hops in your kettle addition (something with lower alpha acids say around 6.5-7.5) and strive for at least 25 IBU's

Click to expand...

Did you see how much hops Walker is already using?! Yowsers!!

Imperial Walker said:

BOSTONBREWIN': you've had some of my IPA. Do you detect anything grassy in it?

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The only fault I could find with your IPA was chill haze. Add a little Irish Moss to your hop salad. Other than that I thought it was delish. True to the style and quite tasty.

Why don't you axe the NB and go strictly with "C" hops.
Jeff

If you're looking for piney, give Simcoe a try.

BOSTONBREWIN' said:

Why don't you axe the NB and go strictly with "C" hops.

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Because I want a piney, almost minty taste. (anyone got a spruce ale they could send me?... maybe THAT's what I'm really after. )

There is a localish commercial IPA that I am in love with. The Mash House's "Hoppy Hour IPA". I was never much of an IPA fan before (that's SWMBO's end of the beer spectrum, I'm on the dark roasty and/or malty side), but I picked a 6er of Hoppy Hour up one time, had one, and fell head over heals for it.

I was pleased to find that that had listed on the side of the bottle that the flavor (which I find solidly bitter with notes of piney, almost minty ZING! to it) comes from generous use of cascades and northern brewer.

I'm not exactly trying to clone this beer, but I do want something very similar. I feel I am getting realtively close my goal after just two iterations.

The f'ed up thing is that, right now, I am drinking one of my IPAs, and I do not notice the grassy flavor! I MUST be going crazy.

SwAMi75 said:

If you're looking for piney, give Simcoe a try.

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Never had it. Maybe I'll check it out.

-walker

I should clarify....I've never used it, either, but I've got a pound of it. It's generally described as "piney", and is featured (among others) in Pliny the Elder, which is said to have a piney character.

SwAMi75 said:

I should clarify....I've never used it, either, but I've got a pound of it. It's generally described as "piney", and is featured (among others) in Pliny the Elder, which is said to have a piney character.

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When did you get that?

I just got 6 ounces in a trade...can't wait to make something with it.

I've only had it in one beer, the legend Hopfest. Awesome, awesome brew.

Dude said:

When did you get that?

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The minute they were available after the last harvest. I gotta get them used before they're too old.

Imperial Walker said:

The f'ed up thing is that, right now, I am drinking one of my IPAs, and I do not notice the grassy flavor! I MUST be going crazy.

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That or the warm weather we had the last few weeks kicked your allergies up and affected your taste buds! Hmmm...wonder if I could incorporate pine pollen into one of my brews this Spring...

Why don't you try some Goldings?

If it's "Piney" & "Spicey" you're after maybe try Chinook in lieu of the NB
Jeff

I find these two posts amusing for the reasons stated below....

mysterio said:

Why don't you try some Goldings?

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The first draft of this recipe used goldings + cascade instead of NB + cascade. I iterated on the recipe, replacing the goldings with NB, and I was much happier with the result.

BOSTONBREWIN' said:

If it's "Piney" & "Spicey" you're after maybe try Chinook in lieu of the NB
Jeff

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I use chinook for bittering. The bottles of IPA that I gave to you have an ounce of chinook in them for 60 minutes. (The batch I brewed on Sunday used columbus, just because I wanted to try it, but chinook is the default bittering hops for my IPA.)

FOR THE RECORD: I drank a couple of IPAs last night, and did not detect anything grassy/haylike. I really think I am losing my mind or dreamed it up. I don't taste grass in my current, drinking batch.

LESSON LEARNED: Relax, don't worry, and have a homebrew.

You may now return to your regular lives.

-walker

Shambolic said:

Did you see how much hops Walker is already using?! Yowsers!!

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Yeah... this is the most expensive recipe I make due to all the hops. Normally 6 oz used in total. (1 for bittering, 4 for flavor and aroma, 1 for dry-hop).

But, now that I have mountains of whole hops from my bulk order, this recipe has come down CONSIDERABLY in price.

-walker