Roeselare taste time table

So I brewed up my first oud bruin this past weekend and its fermenting away on Roeselare. I've got plenty in my pipeline, especially for my designated "funky keg", so I'm not in a huge hurry or anything. But I'm definitely wondering if I'm going to have the patience to wait for the full 18 months that Wyeast recommends.

So, from those of you who have used Roeselare, what type of time table have you experienced as far as taste/funk/sourness? Are things tasting good by month 6? Great by a year? Spectacular by 18 months? Anybody keg/bottle after shorter aging times and still get really tasty beers?

Truthfully, this is my first full-on sour, so even if you haven't used Roeselare specifically, but have insights on your other sour projects, any insight is greatly appreciated.

Sorry, to say this but It's not very good till 24 months. It turns good in the 20 to 24 month. There is no way to quicken up the process. I couldn't even drink it at 18 months. I was just to a meeting where we learned about blending beers, and that really helps this kind of beer to round out the flavors. Keep your pipline full and start blending my friend.

Admittedly I need to learn more about brewing Flemish bruins but from what I've tasted they are never really that funky. A brown ale that is lactic and sometimes vinegary about sums them up. Would be interesting to try a really funky one but I'm not sure how to style that would be.

Depending on how you're getting the color for this beer it may not be fully attenuated after a year if you have any brett in there. I definitely wouldnt bottle it after just 6 months. If it's in a keg you could drain the pressure as it ferments but you may also end up with a yeast cake and pelicle in the keg that you dont want to drink.

Just like with cellaring beer the trick is to keep buying/making more so you always have a supply. Who knows, maybe with this yeast you can speed things up but I have a feeling that you'll just have to wait the year or year and a half. Once that happens you'll always have some to drink assuming you brew more every year.

Thanks for the input. I definitely won't need to worry about it for a year, but its good to know it may be 2 years before I can drink it.

Yodalegomaster - is your 20 to 24 month recommendation specific to the Roeselare blend? Or are you speaking of your experience with lacto/pedio in general?

As far as blending, that shouldn't be a problem. I do 10 gallon split batches, so in conjunction with this oud bruin, I did a "nieuw bruin" where I pitched Wyeast Flanders Golden ale sacch. strain. So I should have a good idea of how tasty that batch is in a couple of months. So if I want to blend in a year or two, I'll just brew that up again.

moti_mo said:

So if I want to blend in a year or two, I'll just brew that up again.

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I'm curious about the blending of bruins. I've seen it done with reds before and it works well but the schedules that I've seen are similar to lambics in that "young" doesnt mean fresh out of the kettle but rather a year old. Thats a long winded way of saying dont wait 2 years to brew again if you want to do some blending.

My experience has been that if you build up a big sour starter and pitch it into a barrel the beer can be outstanding at six months. If you pitch a pack of roeselare and let it sit in a keg it will take two years. There is something about the barrel environment (micro oxidation? wood for brett? wood sugar? who knows, even the Belgians don't know) that really speeds up the aging of sour beers. And yes, I have tried wood chips, it doesn't seem to help.

Flanders Red, Batch #1
Brewing Classic Styles recipe, on Roeselare. Fermented @ 75F.

• 2 wks: Slight sour
• 2 mo: Nicely sour, slight tart
• 2.5 mo: medium sour;
• 4 mo: added toasted oak chips, 2# dried currants
• 4.5 mo: noticebly tart, drier than before, acidic.
• 6 mo: added 1# cherries
• 6.5 mo: bottled.

If you want sour and funk, it has it in spades. I have some Russian River Consecration to compare it to and mine is a little more sour.

There was a little too much acetic acid in there from too much fiddling (sampling!) during the 6 months. I let too much O2 in there.

It's been in the bottles for about 5 months. They are perfectly carbonated, probably about 2 volumes CO2. They foam perfectly, but won't hold a head for the pH I guess.

Flanders Red, Batch #2

• Pitched onto the yeast/currant/oak/cherries cake of the previous batch.
• Sat undisturbed for 4 months.
• After 4 mo, transfered to secondary.

Tastes perfect right now, does not have that acetic acid of the last one. I'm going to let it go for at least another 6 months.

Thanks passedpawn, that's a nice time table. I won't be messing around with it too much until month 6 or so, b/c I have a brett brux biere de garde in my funky keg right now, and when that one's done, I'll be replacing it with a brett lambicus saison. Usually if I'm too impatient and feel the need to sample, I just blow out the head space with CO2 from a kegerator line, so I won't fret about the added O2.

So I'm still interested to know if yoda's experience is specific to Roeselare, b/c between the two responders that gave definite times, they vary from ~6 months to 2 years.

Thanks for the insights!

moti_mo said:

Thanks passedpawn, that's a nice time table.

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BTW, those notes above are my actual taste notes, not something I dreamed up. Just wanted to be clear there.

passedpawn said:

BTW, those notes above are my actual taste notes, not something I dreamed up. Just wanted to be clear there.

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Yup, I definitely gathered that!

Another question, passedpawn - did you leave the beer in primary for that entire 6.5 months or transfer to a secondary at some point?

moti_mo said:

Another question, passedpawn - did you leave the beer in primary for that entire 6.5 months or transfer to a secondary at some point?

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Batch #1 sat on the yeast for the entire time. Batch #2 has been transferred to secondary at ~ 4 months (letting this one go much longer). I'm brewing a Flanders Brown this weekend and it's getting that same yeast.

BTW, I had one of my Batch 1 Reds last night. It's just fantastic. I'm gonna open it and Russian River Consecration this wkend and compare. The only improvement I'd make right now is it won't hold any sort of head for more than about 5 seconds. It's a beauty though - quite red, perfectly clear and carbed. I'm very happy with it.

I keep 2 fermenters going at all times. Primary has the yeast/bug cake and American oak that has been well scrubbed. I use that for about a month. Then I transfer to secondary which has French oak that I change out periodically (usually when fruit has been involved). I really want to get a 3rd and 4th so I'm a little more patient with bottling/sampling. I try not to sample too often (every 2.5 months) and I always purge the fermenter with co2 unless I'm trying to force o2 into it.

passedpawn said:

Batch #1 sat on the yeast for the entire time. Batch #2 has been transferred to secondary at ~ 4 months (letting this one go much longer). I'm brewing a Flanders Brown this weekend and it's getting that same yeast.

BTW, I had one of my Batch 1 Reds last night. It's just fantastic. I'm gonna open it and Russian River Consecration this wkend and compare. The only improvement I'd make right now is it won't hold any sort of head for more than about 5 seconds. It's a beauty though - quite red, perfectly clear and carbed. I'm very happy with it.

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I haven't had many sour beers that hold any sort of a head. The single exception seems to be gueuzes will make foam for me. Other than that anything flanders that I had was nothing more than a thin ring.

Just thought I would add a quick update. Its officially 4.5 months in, and I pulled my first sample just now. Gravity is down from 1.067 to 1.012.

Taste is flat-out amazing. A great mild sourness that really compliments the dried fruit esters. I could easily keg this right now and be happy with it. I will, however, be transferring it to secondary and letting this go over the summer. I want to give it a few months in the slightly warmer temps of the summer-time basement to develop some more sourness. I think I'll keg it at ~1 year if things progress well, as I expect they will.

I'm glad I took a sample now. Its good to know that given a good base beer, these things taste great fairly early on, just need to give it time now to develop a little more sourness

I kegged my 9-month old Flanders (roeselare) this morning. 1.072 -> 1.012. Tart and cherry.

I just tasted my 7 month old Flanders Ref made with ECY-02, and it is considerably sour, a bit more do than a typical Rodenbach Grand Cru. Very nice dried fruit/cherry/leathery background with some mild funk too.

I was going to let it go a year, but it tastes ready to bottle now methinks.

I like hearing others' experiences and learning about the variation of times necessary to get a good sour.

Just brewed my first berliner weisse yesterday with the White Labs BW 630 blend. From reading peoples' posts on HBT, results vary wildly, from no sour after many months to super sour after just a couple. I'm hoping for something closer to the latter, but we'll have to wait and see.

@passedpawn,

Looking at your Flanders Red, Batch #1. You dropped in 3# of fruit and the beer sat in primary the whole time. Since you didn't move to secondary and rack on top, I was wondering your process. Can I assume this was in a glass carboy?

I have a two month old sour black (Roesalare and dregs) and in a few I would like to add at the very least, cherries. But, I do not want to rack to secondary.

tugbucket said:

@passedpawn,

Looking at your Flanders Red, Batch #1. You dropped in 3# of fruit and the beer sat in primary the whole time. Since you didn't move to secondary and rack on top, I was wondering your process. Can I assume this was in a glass carboy?

I have a two month old sour black (Roesalare and dregs) and in a few I would like to add at the very least, cherries. But, I do not want to rack to secondary.

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That batch sat in a ported Better Bottle for the entire time.

I made it like any other beer. I used Jamil's Flanders Red recipe, pitched roeselare straight from the pouch, and waited. I think I outlined what I did up above there.

I just bottled the second batch yesterday (from a keg - force carbed). It's not quite as sour, and definately not as much acetic acid / vinegar. That batch was also fermented for several months in a better bottle, but then racked to a glass carboy for another few months.

If I made another red I'll probably just leave it on the yeast for 6-9 months. Mine get really good in that time. OTOH, I have a couple of sour browns that I am going to let go for at least a year, so I did take those off the yeast. I might let them go longer than that because I have so much sour beer sitting around.