Late Extract and DMS

I have read on HBT that the Late Extract method is fine when DMS is concerned as the process of boiling off the volatiles are already taken care of during the extract process. However, after listening to the Brewstong- DMS episode they clearly state that a 60 minute boil is still needed when using extract. They're reasoning (as I understand it) is that during the extract process the wort is brought up to boil for only about 30 minutes and then pressure added to reduce the temp at which it will boil.

I understand that Pilsner malts and others have more precursors (SMM) than does a standard 2 row but all will need to be boiled in order to rid as much DMS as possible from the wort. So if the extract process mentioned above is correct, then shouldn't you still need to boil 60-90 minutes and cool as quickly as possible to halt DMS production?

I was wondering what others who use the Late Extract method have found. I cannot say for certain that I have ever smelled or tasted DMS. Has anyone ever experienced high levels of DMS after using this method or even a 60 min. boil for that matter.

Thanks,
EB

I use late extract addition all the time and have never had a DMS issue. In fact I found that it really improved my beer.

Strange that Zainasheff and Palmer would state that you need a 60 minute boil for extract when they have promoted late extract add in the past, both on their show and in their book.

if you have all LME what would be a good late extract addition? half begining half at the end? i'm new to late extract addition but would like to try it, just not sure when to do it, as in what cases, does it only really work for a particular style, could you give me some examples? also whats the benefit?

Increasing the pressure would increase and not decrease the boiling temp... that's why in high altitudes you have to boil things longer, because boiling water is not as hot under low pressure.

As for late extract additions you want to add about enough to give you a wort of "normal" gravity 1.040-1.045 so it depends on the amount of water you're boiling. As a general rule half of your extract works. I think some people also just add it all at the end but I'm not sure. The benefits are that you get better hop utilization (bitterness) and your resulting beer will be lighter and should taste better because there is less carmelization of the malt extract since you aren't boiling a superconcentrated wort for an hour. That's just the cliff notes version though. Check it out in depth for yourself, just search for late extract addition and there are a lot of threads about it.

quick question then, is this method of late addition only the case for partial boils? or would full boils benefit too? i do full 5.5 gallon boils

JumboBlimpJumbo said:

add about enough to give you a wort of "normal" gravity 1.040-1.045

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I would disagree with this just a bit. You're not trying to hit an arbitrary gravity for your partial boil, you're trying to hit your planned starting gravity. So, if you planned on starting at 1.060, then you should add enough LME to hit 1.060 in your partial boil. It's not that hard to calculate; just look up the points per pound per gallon for LME and DME.

immaculatemale8 said:

quick question then, is this method of late addition only the case for partial boils? or would full boils benefit too? i do full 5.5 gallon boils

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People do it for full boils as well as partial boils.... but doing a full boil in itself will give you better hop utilization. I think there is still the benefit of less carmelization of the extract but I can't say how much. If you put your recipe in beersmith and say that you are adding your extract at the end of the boil it alters it's IBU calculation, but I have no idea how this is calculated, maybe someone more knowledgeable could tell you that.

I think you only need to worry about DMS with grains, not any extracts.

The extracts, mostly LME are pre-hopped and do not require additional boiling at all.

The only reason to boil DME for 60 mins is because it is UN-hopped and the time is required for hop bitterness extraction.

If I had some good liquid hop extract I would keep all my boils to 2 mins, turn off the heat, THEN add the malts in for a 5 minute steep to pasteurize it.

I've read pasteurization occurs within seconds at temps above 161F.

homebrewer_99 said:

The extracts, mostly LME are pre-hopped and do not require additional boiling at all.

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Finding a pre-hopped extract in this day and age is pretty rare. On the Northern Brewer page, for instance, there are zero examples of it.
NORTHERN BREWER: Malt Extract

wendelgee2 said:

Finding a pre-hopped extract in this day and age is pretty rare. On the Northern Brewer page, for instance, there are zero examples of it.
NORTHERN BREWER: Malt Extract

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I read the link and all I can say is it may have something to do with the hop shortage or a change in marketing, because not so long ago most LME was pre-hopped.

Here is what I gather so far as I am trying to figure out what my best plan of action is.

As for late extract additions you want to add about enough to give you a wort of "normal" gravity 1.040-1.045 so it depends on the amount of water you're boiling. As a general rule half of your extract works.

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My OG is supposed to be 1.050 and I will be boiling about 6 gallons for a 60 minute boil. Using the above stated general rule I would have to utilize all extract to get the desired gravity and to better the hops utilization, correct?

I think you only need to worry about DMS with grains, not any extracts.

The extracts, mostly LME are pre-hopped and do not require additional boiling at all.

The only reason to boil DME for 60 mins is because it is UN-hopped and the time is required for hop bitterness extraction.

Click to expand...

I am using LME and it is not prehopped. Also this is a partial mash kit so there will be Base malt as well as Specialty Grains being used. Total grain bill is just south of 4 pounds total. Enough to worry about DMS? Could it be possible to go full boil with a lower gravity from just the grains and add extract at the last 15 minutes and still get full utilization from the hops? I have two kits, both use unhopped LME, no DME is used and both are partial mash. One kit, a smoked porter I am not worried about color so much. The other, a Fat Tire clone, I want the color to stay true.

So I guess that a full boil is better for Hops utilization and late extract for less carmelization and darkening. What would be the least amount of LME if any that I would need to have in the start for the hops. Is 1.040-45 truly necessary and if so that seems to fly in the face of the late extract method as this is middle of the road for most styles. Would it be that it should only be done for partial boils and that is the way you get the higher gravity without all the extract.

To boil all this down (pun not intended) is it possible to do a full boil AND late extract on a normal gravity beer, partial mash and still be ok on the DMS issue. I'll give into the board here and assume that DMS is not an issue with LME and my mashed grains will be boiled 60 mins. anyway.

wendelgee2 said:

Finding a pre-hopped extract in this day and age is pretty rare. On the Northern Brewer page, for instance, there are zero examples of it.
NORTHERN BREWER: Malt Extract

Click to expand...

There are at least 20 different kinds of pre-hopped liquid extracts at both of my lhbs. Not that I use anything pre-hopped anymore...

I believe ya.
Honestly, I bet it's a change in marketing. And a change in market, as most of us wise up and go for quality over simplicity.

If you are doing a full boil you really don't need to do a late extract addition. The lower gravity of the full boil is what you are really trying to emulate with late extract.

I've used as little as 1 lb DME for 3.5 gallons of water @ 60 minutes for increased hop utilization. I added the rest of the DME as a Late Additoin @ 15 minutes with great results.