Saison - Target FG?

Last Thursday night, February 19, my brother and I brewed up a mini-mash saison kit that we ordered from MoreBeer. I'm a little frustrated with MoreBeer because the kit is way outside the style guidelines for a Saison, but I should have checked that myself before deciding to order. Regardless, I'm hoping it will be a good beer and worth the money and effort.

My problem is that the kit instructions from MoreBeer suck and are obviously wrong. From 4 different MoreBeer sources, I've gotten the following four different answers:

MoreBeer Website (before I pointed out their inconsistencies)
OG: 1.096
ABV: 11%

MoreBeer Website (after I pointed out their inconsistencies)
OG: 1.080-1.090
ABV: 8-9%

Instructions with Kit
OG: 1.068
ABV: 11%

Email from MoreBeer Support
OG: 1.087
ABV: 8-9%

The kit had the following ingredients:
Mashed @ 154f for 60 minutes @ 1.2 quarts/lb, Batch Sparged w/ 180f water
5 lbs Belgian Pilsner
1 lbs Munich
0.5 lbs Caramunich

Boiled 60 minutes and added
9 lbs German Pilsner LME @ 60 min
1 oz Glacier Hops @ 60 min
0.5 oz Sterling Hops @ 20 min
0.5 oz Sterling Hops @ 5 min
Whirlfloc @ 5 min

Cooled to 70f using immersion chiller. Ended up with 5.25 gallons wort @ an OG of 1.093. I made a 2L yeast starter using White Labs Saison Yeast (WLP 565) and pitched the whole thing without decanting. Strong fermentation with blow off was occuring within 12 hours of pitching.

Following MoreBeer's fementation schedule, we started at 70f and are increasing the temp 2 degrees per day until we get to 85f. Then we're going to hold at 85f for three days and check FG.

My question is what should I be expecting/shooting for an FG? Style guidelines say between 1.010-1.015. But I'm already way above style guidelines for the OG. Using the recipe calculator at Tastybrew.com, it indicates I should expect an FG of 1.023 assuming 75% attenuation. Whitelab's website indicates with high gravity beers that it might be necessary to dry the beers with alternate yeast after 75% fermentation. What yeast would I use for that and how do I know when I've hit 75% fermentation? I've never pitched more than one yeast, so what's the process for doing that?

Any suggestions or feedback are welcome. Right now I feel like I'm shooting in the dark and don't have a good feeling where I should be trying to end up with the gravity.

Wow, 1.093?! That's a pretty huge Saison, yo!

You should be shooting for as low as you can get it with your yeast. What strain are you using right now? In my experience, "finishing" with another yeast never works unless it's a yeast cake from another beer. But overall, you want a Saison to be dry, very dry. Yours might end up being much sweeter than the style range, though, because their kit obviously blows cock. First off, your mash temps were way too high. I can't believe they'd tell you to mash a Saison at 154f. Jesus, B3 sucks. Not only that, but I see no simple sugar additions, which would have helped dry it out if you were to replace some of the LME with it. Table sugar works fine here.

At the end of the day, your FG is gonna be what it's gonna be. You can't change that now, unless you were to take a very high-attenuating yeast strain (like the WLP570 Belgian Golden Ale), make a low-OG beer with it, then rack that beer off to another vessel and dump your Saison onto that cake. You might get it to finish out lower with a strain like that, but you'll need the power and might of a whole yeast cake, not just a vial. You could make a huge starter, but by that point, you might as well just make a little belgian pale ale or something with the 570, and use the cake to finish the saison. I'd say, with that OG, and that mash temp, you should be happy if you can get it to finish below 1.020.

In the future, steer clear of Morebeer. Their suckage seems to be increasing exponentially lately.

Evan! said:

In the future, steer clear of Morebeer. Their suckage seems to be increasing exponentially lately.

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Will do. We didn't have anything lined up to brew and I thought I'd give them a chance. Unfortunately in my panick to get something in hand for the next brewday I did a quick order from their site without looking at the details. I thought, Spring and St. Patty's Day are coming up, it would be nice to do a dry Irish stout and a saison. So, that's what I ordered. The "dry Irish Stout" had an OG of 1.068 and we ended up with over 7% ABV. Dry my A$$. Isn't calling a product something it's not false advertising?

well, the dryness is determined by the FG and the amount of residual long-chain dextrines. So it would be possible, via a low mash temp and/or using dextrose/sucrose in place of some of the base maltose, to have a stout finish "dry" even though it started out with a high OG.

That having been said, I think they're doing their customers a disservice (and engaging in deceptive practices if you ask me) by hocking kits that are so far out of the style guidelines. BJCP, while not the bible by any means, is a good common reference for classic styles. And so when the BJCP says a saison should have an OG between 1.048 and 1.080, and yours is at 1.093, something's not right. Hell, a "dry" stout has an upper style range of 1.050 (OG). Overshooting that by 18 gravity points is silly. Call it an American Stout or something! Yeah, it's their kits, they can do what they want with them, and I'm not saying you have to be a slave to the BJCP, but I do think that you're doing your customers wrong by calling something a BJCP style name, when the recipe is far outside of the guidelines.

I know, but when I think dry Irish stout, I think Guinness. I've tried one bottle of the kit we brewed. While still a little green, it's good, but it is nothing like Guinness.

In fact, I just checked their site and this is the description they offer.

Here it is: a Dry Stout in the style of Guinness. Flaked Barley helps to provide all the protein that is needed to produce that wonderfully creamy head. 63 IBU of bitterness compliments the dryness of the Roasted Barley to produce authentic Irish Dry Stout. The liquid yeast is of course from Irish decent.

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Also, there is no way in hell this beer has 63 IBUs.

I went by at lunch and replaced the blow off tube with an airlock. While it was open I took a sample and checked the gravity. Adjusted for temperature, it's already at 1.043! Only 3.5 days in the primary and it's already at 7% ABV. Already at 53.7% attenuation. I'm hoping to at least get down to 1.018, but that's going to require at least 80% attenuation which may be unrealistic with this yeast. The airlock was bubbling like crazy, so maybe there is still enough action going on to reach my goal. I know airlock activity isn't a good indicator, but it sure makes me feel better.

So I listened to the Brew Strong podcast on attenuation on my way to work this morning and I now realize that once set in motion, little can be done to alter the F.G. of beer in a downward direction. Lots can be done to alter it upward, but that's not going to be my problem with this batch. I'm hopeful that since most of my fermentable sugars are coming from the LME and not from the mini-mash, that my high mash temps won't effect the F.G. to much.

My goal is to get sub 1.020, which would be over 78% apparent attenuation. If fermentation stalls out higher, I'm thinking of trying one of the following:

1. Make a big yeast starter with a high attenuating yeast that won't influence the flavor profile. Rack to a Secondary and pitch the yeast starter at high krausen and hope the gravity will drop a few additional points.

2. Try the Beano trick.

Any feedback?

I would steer clear of Beano, from everything I have heard it is almost impossible to stop once it is set into motion. Meaning, it would likely drop down near to 1.000. However, it might be possible to rack onto some sort of campden or metabisulfite in order to kill all the yeast once you get it to an FG that you are shooting for.

If it were me I would let it ride, drink it like it is, and try again with your new education.

Well, we officially have a stuck fermentation. Its been at 1.031 for a few days now. I've never bottled a beer that high. My plan is to transfer to a secondary and allow to clear and bulk age for a week or two. I'll drop the temperature down to around 68-70 for the secondary. After a couple weeks, I'll prime and bottle.

Any suggestions on how to improve this batch would be appreciated, but I really don't have much hope. Since the beer is already so big, do you think watering it down slightly would help?

Also, I've been thinking about another possibility. What about trying beano on 3.5 gallons of the beer, allowing to go down to around 1.000 and then heating to denature the enzyme. Then add the remaining 1.5 gallons of 1.030 beer, add priming sugar, mix and bottle? Any hope that would work?

Pitch onto another yeast cake. If you don't have another yeast cake available, brew a session-style beer, and then once that is done, pitch the Saison on top of that yeast cake.

If I were you, I'd let it ride for a little bit longer in the primary. Saison yeast is tricky. Just like yours, my Saison yeast appeared to crap out right at 1.035. Apparently this is extremely common with this yeast. Your yeast will likely start eating again.

Here's the timeline on my Saison: Brewed on 1/20/09, transferred to secondary on 2/1/09 - 1.035 (I should have just left it alone). On 3/1/09, the reading was 1.016. There is still a slight layer of krausen, as well as some visible action in the airlock. I'm going to take another reading in a couple of weeks to see where I'm at.

Again, my suggestion is to give it some time. It could be a while.

What temperature should I be targeting for the let it ride period? I started fermentation at 70 and stepped it up 2 degrees per day to 85. It's been at 85 for 6 days now. Total time in primary is 13 days at this point. Listening to the Jamil Show on Saisons, he stated that the best temperature for the Saison Yeast is 85 and that fermentation stalled when he went higher and picked up again when he lowered it. Should I give it a little swirl to rouse the yeast and leave it at 85 for another week?

It's interesting that Jamil said that. I had a heating pad on mine during the "nothing's happening" stage. Total heating pad time was about 2 weeks. When I got sick of turning the heating pad back on (it turns off after an hour), I just left it at room temp. At room temp, the activity started up again. My room temp stays around 72-75.

Definitely give it time. Saison yeasts are notorious for stalling weirdly and then starting up again. (Not sure about WLP 565, though--doesn't that also have a reputation for crapping out early? Someone remind me?)

When I made a (lower-gravity) Saison with Wyeast 3724, I left it in primary for all of August in our un-insulated (HOT) apartment. One day it went from an airlock bubble every 90 seconds to every 5-6 seconds, with new krausen and everything. After another week or so, the yeast slowed to a stop, the beer cleared dramatically and the beer came out fantastic. Dead ringer for Dupont, which is what we were going for.

So, yes, patience.

It takes the patience of a monk to make a good Belgian beer.

bloodorange said:

Definitely give it time. Saison yeasts are notorious for stalling weirdly and then starting up again. (Not sure about WLP 565, though--doesn't that also have a reputation for crapping out early? Someone remind me?)

When I made a (lower-gravity) Saison with Wyeast 3724, I left it in primary for all of August in our un-insulated (HOT) apartment. One day it went from an airlock bubble every 90 seconds to every 5-6 seconds, with new krausen and everything. After another week or so, the yeast slowed to a stop, the beer cleared dramatically and the beer came out fantastic. Dead ringer for Dupont, which is what we were going for.

So, yes, patience.

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Can you direct me to the recipe you used? I very much want to clone this beer. I have seen several very different recipes out there

Ketchepillar said:

Can you direct me to the recipe you used? I very much want to clone this beer. I have seen several very different recipes out there

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Don't mind the off topic request at all...in fact, I love this style so much that I'd love any proven recipes that people are willing to provide. I'd preffer all grain and ones that avoid the spices and zest to creat the distinctive Saison flavor.

Found these in the recipe database. Anyone tried any? Comments?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/saison-ete-95303/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/saison-batard-56304/

I took another gravity reading today and it is still stuck at 1.031 where it has been for more than a week. I decided to go ahead and transfer to a secondary and during the process swirled it a little to stir up some of the huge yeast cake at the bottom. I'm going to remove the heater and allow it to sit a room temp (68-72) for several more weeks and see what happens.

I tasted the hydrometer sample and it was really good...too sweat, but you can definately taste the alcohol (already at 8.6%) and the nice belgian flavors. I'm optimistic that if I can get it down a few more points, it won't be bad.

As of today, my Saison is at 1.010. It's still moving. The hydro sample was outstanding!

LakeErieBrew said:

As of today, my Saison is at 1.010. It's still moving. The hydro sample was outstanding!

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I'm jealous. I don't think mine's moving at all, still stuck at 1.031. I'd like to hear about your recipe/process. Saison is definately a beer I want to learn how to brew well as my wife and I really like it and buying bottles of Dupont or Foret is getting expensive.

Here are my notes:

7 lbs 8 oz. Pilsner
2 lbs Rahr White Wheat
2 lbs Weyermann Rye Malt


1 oz East Kent Goldings 60 mins
1 lb light Candi sugar 60 mins
.5 oz Sweet orange peel 5 mins
.5 oz Crushed corriander 5 mins

Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison

Dough in with 17 qts of 167 degree water. Mash 90 mins 150. Drained and Sparged with 18 qts of 170 degree water. Stuck sparge (sonofabitch). Had to tip the cooler over and lauter through a strainer.

1 hour boil

OG - 1.060

Edited to add that this is not a proven recipe by any means. This is my first try at Saison.