"Orval" Clone/ Belgian recipe help......

So I was in the LHBS this morning and I picked up the following ingredients to make an Orval clone. It came out of the Clone Brews Book.

8.5lbs Belgian 2row
6oz Cara vienne
.5lbs Crystal 20
1lb Light Candi Sugar
1oz Bitter Orange Peel
1oz Sazz hops
1oz Hallertau
.5oz Styrian Goldings
wyeast trappist

I was in a hurry and forgot to write down the mash schedule, hop schedule, boil times, you know all the important stuff. I would just do a normal brew, but I want to make sure that it comes out good. So my question any more experienced all grain brewers care to take a stab at that and recomend a good method?

another question, the guy at the store recomended the wyeast trapist. I just noticed it is a high gravity yeast. What effect will this have on the beer, being that it is not a high gravity brew?

I can dig a little deeper when I get home later, but I recall reading (and tasting) that Orval is conditioned with Brettanomyces - I am not sure how close you can get to the real thing without throwing some Brett in there during conditioning. That said, I haven't used Brett personally, so some more experienced wild brewers will be able to give you better feedback on its use and whether or not its a requirement for an Orval clone.

I've never tried to brew an Orval clone (although it's on my list of somedays) but just from tasting it, there's definitely some funky brett aroma. I'm sure you could make a good beer with just regular yeast, but it won't be Orval.

This blog is one of the best sources I've found about brewing with brett: The Mad Fermentationist

Mash the grain at 151°F or so for 60 minutes. Unlike other Belgian recipes, mash this higher since Brettanomyces will be added in secondary.

Depending on the aa% of the hops, which you don't have listed, I would bitter with the Hallertauer, Add the Styrians with about 15 minutes to go in the boil and dryhop with the Saaz.

Drop the orange peel - this isn't in an Orval.

The Wyeast 3787 is ok, but for an authentic Orval clone you want to use WLP510 Bastogne Yeast. It is a platinum strain, but is available right now through February.

Once fermentation is complete, 10-14 days, rack to secondary on top of either WLP650 or Wyeast5112 Brett. Brux. Hold in secondary for 6-9 months. Bottle in heavy glass to ~4 volumes of CO2.

Thanks alot. The Saaz is 5.8, the Hallertau is 3.9, and the Styrian Goldings is 1.9. The recipe called for the Styrian as the bittering, but I substituted the Saaz because the Styrians that they had were only 1.9 aa. Ill see what this comes out as. It might not be an Orval clone after all, but nevertheless it will be beer and Im sure it will be good. Thanks for the info!!!!

Yeah, you can definitely use Saaz to bitter as well. I just really like the spicy flavor they give off.

Jamil has a clone recipe.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersarchive/Jamil06-16-08.mp3

PseudoChef said:

Mash the grain at 151°F or so for 60 minutes. Unlike other Belgian recipes, mash this higher since Brettanomyces will be added in secondary.

Depending on the aa% of the hops, which you don't have listed, I would bitter with the Hallertauer, Add the Styrians with about 15 minutes to go in the boil and dryhop with the Saaz.

Drop the orange peel - this isn't in an Orval.

The Wyeast 3787 is ok, but for an authentic Orval clone you want to use WLP510 Bastogne Yeast. It is a platinum strain, but is available right now through February.

Once fermentation is complete, 10-14 days, rack to secondary on top of either WLP650 or Wyeast5112 Brett. Brux. Hold in secondary for 6-9 months. Bottle in heavy glass to ~4 volumes of CO2.

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To save you a few dollars just add the dregs from 2-3 bottles of Orval, then let it sit 6-9 months like my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/drunk-owl-mango-55227/

niquejim said:

To save you a few dollars just add the dregs from 2-3 bottles of Orval, then let it sit 6-9 months like my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/drunk-owl-mango-55227/

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Save money!?! Have you priced Orval lately?

944play said:

Jamil has a clone recipe.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersarchive/Jamil06-16-08.mp3

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I see the link to the broadcast for Jamil's recipe of an Orval Clone but does anyone have it written out already? I don't really have the time to sit around and listen to the whole episode just to get the recipe.

I searched the https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-database-178064/ for it but did not find it in there either.

steinsato said:

I don't really have the time to sit around and listen to the whole episode just to get the recipe.

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You're blowing my mind. You have the patience to brew a sour beer, but no time for an hour of audio on the subject? Wow.

The recipe is in Brewing Classic Styles. Page 213 (saving you time).

944play said:

You're blowing my mind. You have the patience to brew a sour beer, but no time for an hour of audio on the subject? Wow.

The recipe is in Brewing Classic Styles. Page 213 (saving you time).

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LOL yeah well I was at work and obviously can't listen to it there, then when I get home swmbo has a ton of other things for me to do and unfortunately none of those things involve beer. Luckily I have the Brewing Network app on my phone, maybe I can do some "yardwork" while I listen to the show.

6.25 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 58.1 %
2.50 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 23.3 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.3 %
2.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 27.4 IBU
0.50 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40%] (15 min) Hops 4.6 IBU
1.75 lb Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 16.3 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale

Thats the one I used with a few differences it turned out great. add The brett in the secondary for about 6 months

I'm looking at doing a recipe of this soon after reading "Brew Like a Monk". According to the Orval brewery information 3 pale malts are used and two caramel malts. I figure I need either a ton of Orval bottles to put this at 5 volumes CO2 like the book suggests or a whole mess of champagne bottles.

Obviously I'm okay with it not being exactly like Orval because that won't be possible. However if I can capture the essence of the beer I'll be super happy. Here's what I have so far.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
3 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (1.7 SRM) Grain 25.62 %
3 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (1.3 SRM) Grain 25.62 %
2 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 21.35 %
12.0 oz Caravienne Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 6.40 %
10 oz Cara 8 (Dingemans) (7.5 SRM) Grain 5.29 %
1 lbs 14oz Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 16.00 %
0.75 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.90 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
0.75 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
1.45 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (40 min) Hops 18.1 IBU
1.40 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (40 min) Hops 19.7 IBU
1 Pkgs Bastogne Belgian Ale (White Labs #WLP510) [Starter 35 ml] Yeast-Ale
1 Pkgs Orval Bottle Dredges (Abbaye d'Orval) Yeast-Ale

Mash at 145 with a slow ramp up to 162 and hold at 162 for 20min. No mashout denature in the kettle.

Then the brett is added just at bottling not extended aging so I will have to figure out what sugars are present in the beer after the three week secondary with the orval dredges. Measure the gravity and figure out how many grams of sugar are left for the brett to eat. If there's enough for an expected gravity of 1.003ish then I'll bottle with out additional sugars. If the content is below around 12oz for a 5.5gal batch then I will have to add sugar. Bottling will be dependent on the gravity basically. For example the recipe in the back of the book measures the gravity of his Orval inspired beer at 1.009 at bottling. Using that for reference and the FG of Orval at 1.003 that leaves you with 11.2oz of possible sugars to be consumed by the brett. At bottling for approx 4.5vols you would need 12oz of sugar, so I would only add another .8oz of sugar after the short brett secondary. If it doesn't make it to 4.5vols that's fine. If the beer goes a touch further it's okay to because Orval is supposedly bottled at 5vols so I am leaving wiggle room. I might aim for 4 volumes to get a little more wiggle room. Then let these babies sit for a while before cracking any open at least 4 months.

I already have two carboys tied up for a while and I don't need a third tied up for a long brett fermentation. With the right math and measurements this is totally doable.

FYI, you're going to have to wait until May for the WLP510 to come out. I just made my own recipe for this too after reading BLAM and seeing what other people have done.

Batch Size: 12 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Efficiency into Kettle: 90.5%

Ingredients:
7.39 lb Dingeman's Pale Ale Malt (3.3 SRM, 1.0356) 35%
6.76 lb Dingeman's Pilsen (1.8 SRM, 1.0351) 32%
1.79 lb Dewolf-Cosyns Caramunich (56.5 SRM, 1.0308) 8.5%
0.95 lb Dewolf-Cosyns Caravienne (25.0 SRM, 1.0309) 4.5%
0.84 lb Weyermann Acidulated (2.2 SRM, 1.0337) 4%
3.38 lb Candi Sugar, Clear (0.0 SRM, 1.032) 16%
3.51 oz Hallertauer [pellet, 4.80 %] (75 min) 31.4 IBU
1.75 oz Styrian Goldings [pellet, 4.00 %] (20 min) 4.4 IBU
1.75 oz Styrian Goldings [pellet, 4.00 %] (5 min) 2.2 IBU
4.00 oz Styrian Goldings [pellet, 4.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days)
2.00 items Servomyces (Boil 20.0 min)
2.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 20.0 min)
2 Pkgs WLP510, 458 Billion cells (10 million cells per mL)
2 Pkgs WLP650, one per carboy in secondary

Beer Profile:
Est Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.003 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.8%
Bitterness: 38 IBU
Est Color: 9.0

Mash Profile:
60 min Variable Beta Rest 145F (planning on getting most of the conversion from this rest)
20 min Alpha Rest 162F
15 min Mashout 170F

I got to check the fridge at my LHBS I swear I saw Bastogne and on clearance because it's past the best by date. So if they have it I'll pick it up. I am going to buy another sack of grain today.

My LHBS does not have the yeast in stock when I went back to look a couple weeks ago. I will be utilizing the dredges on an agar mixed with wort plate to isolate whats in the bottle. I'm sure I'll be able to swing this between mixing up media for my internship at a brewery.

Northern Brewer has Wyeasts Orval yeast available.

Wyeast 3789 Trappist Blend - Are you referring to this?

Is it necessary to let it sit in the secondary for that long when adding Orval dregs, or could the same effect be achieved by letting it sit for 2-3 weeks then letting it condition in the bottle for another year or two? As much as I'd like to leave it in the secondary for a few extra months I'd like to have a few bottles to give away by Christmas time!

The issue is if you have bottles that can take very high carbonation. Also it depends on what your current gravity is at the moment. If the gravity is already fairly low then it should be safe if you bottle in strong enough bottles. I'm brewing my take on a recipe inspired by orval in a month or two. I have saved up orval bottles and many champagne bottles to bottle this thing in for 4-5 volumes.

Well I finally decided to brew this Orval inspired recipe. This is what will get cooked up on Friday.


Type: All Grain Date: 6/24/2011
Batch Size (fermenter): 7.50 gal Brewer: Adam Cole
Boil Size: 10.38 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: Penrose Kettle (18Gal) and Cooler (13Gal)
End of Boil Volume 8.58 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 82.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 7.00 gal Est Mash Efficiency 92.0 %
Fermentation: My Aging Profile Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3 lbs 8.0 oz Vienna Malt (Franco Belges) (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 26.4 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (1.3 SRM) Grain 1 26.4 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 20.8 %
13.9 oz Caravienne Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.6 %
5.9 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.8 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 7 15.7 IBUs
1.25 oz Serebrianka [3.50 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 6 12.7 IBUs
1 lbs 4.0 oz Belgian Candi Syrup Clear (1.0 SRM) Sugar 8 9.4 %
1.2 pkg Bastogne Belgian Ale (White Labs #WLP510) [35.00 ml] Yeast 12 -
1.2 pkg Brett Blend #1 (East Coast Yeast #ECY04) [50.00 ml] Yeast 13 -
1 lbs Belgian Candi Syrup Amber (45.0 SRM) Sugar 9 7.6 %
1.50 oz Strisslespalt [2.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 4.6 IBUs
1.50 oz Serebrianka [3.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 6.4 IBUs

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.006 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.1 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.6 %
Bitterness: 39.5 IBUs Calories: 32.0 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 8.7 SRM

I'm not entirely decided on how to mash this. I will likely do a pseudo decoction with two steps, no mash out just denature in the kettle. I'm thinking mash in at 148 let that go while I'm class. Then I'll come home and raise it up to 160 for a dextrinization step. Depending on FG I will decide on how much priming sugar to add when I bottle.

Done and bottled up my friends. My OG ended up at 1.060 and my FG at bottling was 1.009. So because I finished up fermentation at 50F I figured for 1 vol retained by the beer, another two volumes worth of attenuation from the brett in the bottle, and I primed for 1.5 vol with sugar. So I should end up between 4.5 and 5 volumes in the bottles. I ended up having just enough bottles that were strong enough for this level of carbonation. I'll update as it develops in the bottle over time and builds carbonation. Booyah!

I'm interested in giving this one a go at some point if it turns out well! When do you plan on trying it?

I figure I'll give one a shot in about a month or so. I don't want to waste it when fresh that much since I'm looking for the brettier aged version. Who knows maybe it'll just be a great beer from the start and I'll drink a few here and there to see how it evolves. It's not a huge time investment to make a beer like this. It's more of a bottle investment because it took me a while to save up enough champagne heft bottles for this beer.

Okay I prematurely opened a bottle tonight. The flavor of the recipe I brewed is OUTSTANDING as a non brett beer right now. Sure there's brett in there but it hasn't even had a chance to make its presence known. I don't know how much like a fresh Orval this is, but it is down right tasty. The carbonation is on the low side right now but that's okay because as the brett attenuates further in the bottle it will continue to climb.

The hops are what is really pleasing me right now. I think I really hit the hop flavor with the strisselspalt and serebrianka. I remember reading somewhere recently that they were using strisselspalt and since I had some on hand I used them. Plus I did a split dry hop between strisselspalt and stryian golding just before bottling. It's a great brew even if you decide to not do the brett.

That's great news! I actually am in the process of getting a yeast bank started, and I think after we get a few other brews tested, i'll be doing this recipe! Thanks for keeping up to date, and I hope everything works out! Happy leap day!

smokinghole said:

Okay I prematurely opened a bottle tonight. The flavor of the recipe I brewed is OUTSTANDING as a non brett beer right now. Sure there's brett in there but it hasn't even had a chance to make its presence known. I don't know how much like a fresh Orval this is, but it is down right tasty. The carbonation is on the low side right now but that's okay because as the brett attenuates further in the bottle it will continue to climb.

The hops are what is really pleasing me right now. I think I really hit the hop flavor with the strisselspalt and serebrianka. I remember reading somewhere recently that they were using strisselspalt and since I had some on hand I used them. Plus I did a split dry hop between strisselspalt and stryian golding just before bottling. It's a great brew even if you decide to not do the brett.

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keep us posted.. orval is one of my faves and if i were to brew a clone i'd start from your recipe... orval is reportedly bottled with brett but there's no reason you can't "secondary" with brett as i like to ignore bottles (i'm tired of putting bottles in my fridge to slow them down)... i'd go c.. or b at the most... not that much brett in it imo but it does have that woody/dry brett characteristic to it fo'sho... the 5 volumes is insane imo tho - no way it winds up there... but i think bottling at 1.5 with brett added is perfect... orval isn't high volume at all (unless the 1,000 bottles i've had have been off which i guess would be possible).... i'm curious as to where the carb finishes off and what brett strain you used... taste wise i think you're there from the looks of it.

with permission i'm going to steal this - i've got a vial of brett c waiting to be tossed in something and this looks like the perfect candidate..

i also have a wild brett strain saved right now that might be a good "local" orval... okay - just changed my mind... local/wild/orval clone coming up! been trying to find a place to use my wild yeast and this is it...

For the brett I used Orval dredges. I have saved it up over time and just dumped it all in a week before bottling while it was lagering in the 40s.

Orval is certainly highly carbed if not 5 it's damn near. Brew Like a Monk has CO2 levels listed and lists Orval as 5.0 volumes and Duvel is at 4.25 according to the book. I have done quite a few saisons between 3 and 4 and Orval has more than them. There's a reason their bottle is three times heavier than a standard long neck. The only bottle out there heavier at a similar size is the 375ml champagne splits.

Mine might be a little darker and exactly a clone but it took all its inspiration from Orval that's for sure. I based my recipe on my tastes, other clone attempt recipes, and after reading on their website. If it's close enough to call a clone, thats cool, if not I don't care because it turned out to be a fantastic beer.

Today I'm brewing a turbid mash lambic with another member of this site. So I broke out a bottle of this "clone" I brewed. It's been a week or two since I last had a bottle and the brett is already starting to show up. The carbonation is coming up nicely.

How's this tasting now? Have any left?

It's tasting eerily like Orval. It's a little darker but I can't complain one bit. The brett funk is coming out strong and the carbonation is getting up there. It did HORRIBLE at NHC because I didn't specify anything but "belgian amber bottle conditioned with brett". In retrospect I would have been better served saying it was an Orval clone.

I have TONS left too. Thank god because I really like this beer. I like it so much I'm hesitant to give it to friends.

Very cool, I've been wanting to do a Brett beer and what better way to start than with an Orval clone. One of my favorite beers ever.

Here we are in October and I'm drinking another of my brews from last fall/winter. It's getting more and more like Orval. It's not a spot on clone but it keeps me from wanting to buy it except to get a "direct from the source" yeast supply. I've bought two Orval bottles this year I think compared to many more from last year. I like my version slightly better because it still has a fruity ester aspect that Orval doesn't have.

Another update on my beer. The bottles are brilliant clear at this point now. The color of the beer is a beautiful amber/copper decently more color than Orval. It has a decent head on it and nice high carb. I did a gravity measurement since I popped a 750ml of this and its sitting at 1.005 in the bottle. I bottled at 1.009 so it attenuated 4 more gravity points since bottling. That puts my nearer to 4 than 5 volumes. I hope to brew the recipe again with slight tweaks soon. I want to decrease the color, add a bit more sulfate to my brew water, and add a bit more bitterness. My recipe that is posted on page 3 will change up a bit and I will post up the tweaks when I finally brew the beer.

I am planning on brewing this on 5/18/13. I like the brettier older tastes and plan to add Orval dregs in secondary, then let it sit for quite a while. Would any of you mind discussing your fermentation schedule?

Primary twoish weeks with wlp510 then I dry hopped and cold conditioned for a week or two. I forget specifically. Then two days before bottling I dropped in some straight up Orval bottle yeast. Then i bottled in champagne bottles and other heavy bottles, primed for about 3vol and let the Brett build the rest of the carb.

I brewed it today. My LHBS doesn't carry White Labs yeasts, so I two packages of Wyeast 3787 Trappist HG. My efficiency has been around 60%, so I added a pound each of the base malts. I also switched out the Belgian candy syrup for beet sugar due to availability. Other than that, I stayed right on recipe. My OG is 10.80 which means I hit 72%. I plan to leave in primary fermentation for 2 weeks, then switch to secondary and add the dregs of two bottles of Orval that I've been saving. From there I plan to leave it in the cellar (55 degrees) for at least 10 months. Does this sound reasonable? When should I dry hop? Is 10 months long enough for the brett to become funky?

What type of bottles do you plan on using? If heavy champagne/Belgian glass there is no need to wait even 3months to bottle. Let the Brett build your carb with residual extract in the bottle. I feel its the easiest way, the most authentic way, and might even produce different flavors. The pressure in the bottle has to have an effect on flavor produced by the brett vs. bulk aging. If you don't like that idea then 8 months is probably more than enough.