DIN this, Done that - how did you DIN your panel?

I have been spending time placing and thinking and drawing and then redoing. I think I need the collective mind to show me the way to glorious ebrewing utopia.

Which option worked best for you or you wish :
1) long rows of din mounted components
2) short rows with segmentation of parts plated together. Breakers and coils on a rail. All power on another.
3) I just went for it and it worked

If you could send a pic of your internals (keeping in mind safely) along with what your theory was behind the design. It would help me out a bunch. I start my cut, drill, and wire next week.

P.s. I know this was brought up on the show me your panel thread but I thought this would be better broken out for future use.

I'm in the same position and would also love some suggestions!

I'm planning on short rows. I'm using DIN mounted breakers and terminal/distribution blocks but the contactors, low voltage power supplies etc. will be mounted directly to the backplate.

Depends on your box and your components. Stop fretting. Just start building it. If, in the middle of the wiring job, you realize you should have done it a different way, then rip it apart and do it that way. 12 gauge wire is pretty cheap. It's a hobby and it's supposed to be fun and educational. You're not on the clock.

LandoLincoln said:

Depends on your box and your components. Stop fretting. Just start building it. If, in the middle of the wiring job, you realize you should have done it a different way, then rip it apart and do it that way. 12 gauge wire is pretty cheap. It's a hobby and it's supposed to be fun and educational. You're not on the clock.

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I agree . I wanted to get mine finished and test it before fretting too much about what the BEST way was. I wanted the WORKING way first! Its always exciting to hear that *clunk* of the contactor firing and no smoke showing up.

I looked at DIN, but it didn't seem to be beneficial if you're doing a Kal clone. It seems unlikely I'll need to service/replace parts that are attached to the back plate often, and there aren't that many components anyway. If you start putting in breakers, internal SSR heat sinks, etc. then it would make more sense.

Edit: I see now that you actually already went the DIN route, in that case just jump in. The great thing about it is you can move components around so easily.

This advice goes beyond using DIN rail but applies just the same.
Generally speaking, you need to avoid mounting the long side of any DIN rail too close to any enclosure edges since you typically connect wiring to both sides of components mounted on the DIN rail.

The nice thing about panel layout is you can layout the parts and pieces without actually installing them. This allows you to see how things all fit together.

Don't start cutting and drilling until you have played around with the physical layout of the components in a least a couple different configurations.

For front panels, tape a piece of paper on it and sketch out the location of switches , displays, controllers, etc.

Remember to think in three dimensions. The front panel components that project into the panel interior need adequate clearance so they don't interfere with the stuff mounted on the sub-panel.

Bottom line is, don't start cutting the panel up until you know where the stuff is going to mount. This can save you a lot of rework and avoid those unsightly "oops" holes.

Also think about the placement of openings in the box for strain reliefs, connectors, sockets, or conduit.

Make sure your panel enclosure has enough area for the footprint of all the stuff that needs to go inside. I know this sounds obvious, but until you have assembled a few panels, you may not realize the amount of space that is needed for everything to assemble properly.

Thanks process. It took me 3 months to finally decide on the panel layout using cad then put it on the panel and loved it. Maybe I need to 3-d model the panel.

I tired 4 different configurations and found one I really like but need to close the door with PID installed to make sure they clear.

I did have a momentary "oops" when I realized that I hadn't considered one aspect of the 3rd dimension. Things that stick out the back of the front panel and are close to the edge can potentially hit the frame when the panel swings out.

alien said:

I did have a momentary "oops" when I realized that I hadn't considered one aspect of the 3rd dimension. Things that stick out the back of the front panel and are close to the edge can potentially hit the frame when the panel swings out.

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Didn't even occur to me. Wow, that is something to look for before I drill. Thanks for warning us!

alien said:

I did have a momentary "oops" when I realized that I hadn't considered one aspect of the 3rd dimension. Things that stick out the back of the front panel and are close to the edge can potentially hit the frame when the panel swings out.

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Hence my warning about taking time to plan ahead before breaking out the drills, punches, saws.

I learned this lesson the hard way long ago, due to my youthful exuberance.

Just trying to save some heart-ache and $$ for da' folks.

alien said:

I did have a momentary "oops" when I realized that I hadn't considered one aspect of the 3rd dimension. Things that stick out the back of the front panel and are close to the edge can potentially hit the frame when the panel swings out.

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Very good point. To clarify, the edge that matters is the one opposite the hinges, and placing the device such that the outermost protrusion inside the box is at least as far away from the edge as its depth will give you plenty of clearance. You really don't need to place it that far away because the fixed point of rotation is at the hinges, but for any less than that it is very prudent to verify clearance before you cut.

Thanks Jeffmeh, you put that much better than I did!

alien said:

Thanks Jeffmeh, you put that much better than I did!

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No problem, as there have plenty of instances where those roles have been reversed.

If my Trigonometry weren't decades stale, I might even have been able work out the formula that prescribed the minimum distance from the edge, based upon the depth of the device below the panel and the length from the hinges to the opposite edge.

Back to the OP:

Which option worked best for you or you wish :
1) long rows of din mounted components
2) short rows with segmentation of parts plated together. Breakers and coils on a rail. All power on another.
3) I just went for it and it worked


I have a relatively large panel at 24x18x8. Just for the the components on the backplane - the power comes in from the inlet flange at the bottom left. Used left instead of right because it is a shorter distance and I cross fewer lines and hoses. From there to the distribution blocks that are vertically mounted. From the bottom up - Ground and neutral, then across the top to Hot1 and Hot2. The Hot1 and Hot2 DIN distribution blocks are horizontal across the top. Power then flows from there down to the breakers, then Hot1 goes to contactors and Hot2 goes to a 120v distribution block and the SSR's to the element contactors.

From the element contactors then to the element outlets.

All switch buttons, alarms, and PIDs are then wired from the front panel to the components and 120v dist block.



http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/StLBeer/Brewing and Serving/Control Panel/photo-12-1.jpg

i did din mounted scr's, breakers, fuses, and terminal blocks. Contactors and the big distribution block are screwed to the back panel.

I based my internal layout on my pid's and fit some of the interenals around them. Tried to keep the scr's in line with the contactors then rounded back to the bottom outlets.

Stlbeer: brilliant about the neutral connection. I think that makes the most sense coming back out of the components. Looks great.

WP: that's really clean. I want my panel to be very very clean in the build I like the wire guides on the edge to keep it nice and tidy.

ReuFroman said:

Stlbeer: brilliant about the neutral connection. I think that makes the most sense coming back out of the components. Looks great.

WP: that's really clean. I want my panel to be very very clean in the build I like the wire guides on the edge to keep it nice and tidy.

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Thanks, but the train wreck hasn't occurred yet....

I'll post picts when it's actually done

Keep us posted.

Everything on my panel is on dins except the ssrs. I have auber contactors an I found some attachments to put them on the rails, I got them from mouser. If I ever have to replace them I think it will be easier. Of course my panel is really small so doing anything in there is kind of a chore

mrwizard0 said:

Everything on my panel is on dins except the ssrs. I have auber contactors an I found some attachments to put them on the rails, I got them from mouser. If I ever have to replace them I think it will be easier. Of course my panel is really small so doing anything in there is kind of a chore

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Do you have pics?

I went through this entire thread and I don't understand - what is DIN?

On my panel I just went for it. I'm a complete rookie at this type of wiring. I have an Auber panel, and its pretty compact. I also added a 3rd pump because I'm lazy, so theres a little more junk in there. Sorry the pics are sideways.

View attachment 162382

kenh said:

I went through this entire thread and I don't understand - what is DIN?

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DIN stands for Deutsches Institut für Normung or in English German Institute for Standardization.
Every time a hombrewer talks about DIN mounted components they talk about electrical parts which fit on a standard 35 mm DIN-rail.
It doesn't matter from what supplier you purchase the components they all fit on the standard rail without any screws. All the components snap on the rail and can be replaced in no time.

Below you can see some of the DIN-rail mountable parts I use in my brewing projects.
Look closely and you can see the metal rail with all different parts on the rail, terminal blocks, relays, circuit breakers,PLCs, etc.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

ReuFroman said:

Do you have pics?

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Like I said, it was tight. My wiring wasn't pretty, but you can see the "feet" that I used to attach the contactors. They are the grey things in between each one.

mrwizard0 said:

View attachment 162412

Like I said, it was tight. My wiring wasn't pretty, but you can see the "feet" that I used to attach the contactors. They are the grey things in between each one.

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Adapters http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electrical/products/accessories/adapters_for_dinandamericanrails.html. I also used them for my contactors.

waffle418 said:

Adapters http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electrical/products/accessories/adapters_for_dinandamericanrails.html. I also used them for my contactors.

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I got mine from mouser.com, https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=CMTB-35virtualkey56110000virtualkey845-CMTB-35

ClaudiusB said:

DIN stands for Deutsches Institut für Normung or in English German Institute for Standardization.
Every time a hombrewer talks about DIN mounted components they talk about electrical parts which fit on a standard 35 mm DIN-rail.
It doesn't matter from what supplier you purchase the components they all fit on the standard rail without any screws. All the components snap on the rail and can be replaced in no time.

Below you can see some of the DIN-rail mountable parts I use in my brewing projects.
Look closely and you can see the metal rail with all different parts on the rail, terminal blocks, relays, circuit breakers,PLCs, etc.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

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OK, it's the brackets the parts are mounted on. This seems like a expensive way to go. You have to buy the brackets then you can only mount what fits on the brackets.

FYI the DIN standards also apply to standardized opening sizes in panels for PIDs and other devices.

You will see references to 1/2 DIN 1/16 DIN, etc for panel opening on various components.

Dupe post

So I ended up going fully DIN just by chance. Turned out most of what I purchased had DIN mountability, and the one or two things that didn't, I got an adapter plate for. I ran 3 rails horizontally across the back plate, and then played the Jenga game of trying to get things to fit logically and clear all the stuff in the door.

To me, the advantage of the DIN was clear when it came to that layout game. I drilled 9 holes in my backplate TOTAL - 3 screws for each rail. From there, I had almost unlimited flexibility in how things got laid out. If you were to go with the standard mount option, you'd have to drill 2-4 holes in your backplate for each device, which winds up being a TON of holes and drilling and is really just an epic pain in the ass.

Now that everything is laid out, I do have the ability to swap out components if anything should fail, but otherwise there's no real post-completion advantage to the DIN rails - they don't do anything for you once the system is finished and is up and running.

If I had to do it again, I would absoloutely go DIN. I'll try and post photos this weekend.

-Kevin

Yeah the DIN rail really simplifies panel fabrication.

It would take a lot more effort to layout all those individual mounting holes and have everything come out straight and square.

The more complex your project, the greater the advantages of rail-mounting components.

I think the thing that I find to be the hardest is the depth piece I had to almost do a 3D drawing to figure it out.
PID controllers are deeper than I first thought.

processhead said:

The more complex your project, the greater the advantages of rail-mounting components.

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This is gold. I think I have a great panel to work with but it is complex.
In the end I think it will be short runs fit around components that are deep.

kenh said:

OK, it's the brackets the parts are mounted on. This seems like a expensive way to go. You have to buy the brackets then you can only mount what fits on the brackets.

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The brackets are pretty cheap. I think it was five bucks for a three foot section - way more than I needed for my control panel.

For me, it was hard to find certain components that weren't DIN-mounted. Like the mini circuit breakers. So since I was mounting a DIN rail for my mini circuit breakers, I decided to buy some other DIN-mounted components to save space and to make it look nicer.

Other components I didn't DIN-mount, like my contactors.

+1 on PID depth. Make sure you aren't mounting them over top of the contactors on your backplate/DIN rails.

LandoLincoln said:

The brackets are pretty cheap. I think it was five bucks for a three foot section - way more than I needed for my control panel. For me, it was hard to find certain components that weren't DIN-mounted. Like the mini circuit breakers. So since I was mounting a DIN rail for my mini circuit breakers, I decided to buy some other DIN-mounted components to save space and to make it look nicer. Other components I didn't DIN-mount, like my contactors.

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I found everything that can be din mounted. There are a lot of components that come din mountable and if they don't there are a lot of brackets that you can use. ebrewsupply.com has almost everything.