Copper tubing to control mash temperature

bajabrewer7 · Jan 20, 2012

We're going pro in a few months and are having a 3 bbl system custom built for us, pretty much what Hess in SD has but bigger. I understand that with all that thermal mass in the mash tun, it wont lose much heat through the process, but I still want a way to control it, I'm thinking of wrapping 100' of copper tubing around the mash tun and circulating hot water through it to keep the temperatures constant, has anyone seen this done? Any reasons why it wouldn't work?

day_trippr · Jan 20, 2012

It appears the mash tun for a 3bbl system would have a diameter around 31". 100' of tubing would give you 12 turns around the tun. I'm thinking you'd need much more tubing than that to be effective...

Cheers!

bajabrewer7 · Jan 20, 2012

Copper tubing is relatively cheap so I wouldn't mind if I had to buy 300', it would still be much cheaper than buying a used 3bbl system.. would it work though?

day_trippr · Jan 20, 2012

Good question. I expect the thermal resistance would go through the roof unless you find some way to keep the tubing in consistent contact with the tun. Even then there's darn little contact area between the two, unless they were soldered together (I have no idea if that's even possible never mind practical) so efficiency - even with a healthy insulation covering the works - doesn't seem likely to be very good.

All of that is probably why steam jackets are popular in that space...

Cheers!

Grossy · Jan 20, 2012

When I read your title, I actually thought of a reverse Immersion chiller.

Could you place the copper coil inside your mash tun, then run temperature controlled water through the coils, to impart heat into the mash?

noodle23 · Jan 20, 2012

I think it could work. I thought about doing this myself with left over tubing I had from a failed chiller i made. I would also add a thermometer to the exit end of the tubing as a way to gauge if you are losing heat or what is happening to the temp at it runs through that much tubing.

Mr_Pear · Jan 20, 2012

Sorry I don't have much to add as far as your question but do you have anymore info on your going pro journey?

bajabrewer7 · Jan 20, 2012

Coil in mash sounds interesting, has it been done before?

Mr Pear: We've been polishing our brewing abilities for a year with the intention of selling our beer, we'll open a tasting room in august which is why we're building a new system. I'm in Mexico and the craft beer scene here is just starting to pick up.

TBar · Jan 20, 2012

I've seen large scale water jackets like the one you are describing in power plants. Maximize surface area contact and insulate the outside and it can work, especially if you are using it just to offset ambient losses.

Hermit · Jan 20, 2012

Seems like rims or herms would be more efficient and more stable in the long run.

outside92129 · Jan 20, 2012

Are you going to be opening up in SD or down south? If you're north of the border consider me in line to buy a beer!

rosienej · Jan 20, 2012

Brewing Science and Practice https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/best-brewing-science-books-107280/

What are your mash schedules and how much insulation you are going to put on the Mash Tun.

As I understand it, the waste heat is used (e.g. from the boil) to mash the next batch, which is cost effective if you are doing large scale continuous production.

bajabrewer7 · Jan 22, 2012

After thinking about it, I'm going to wrap copper around my vessel and have a jacket soldered to it, this will be filled with water so the surface area contact will be at it's maximum level. Obviously there will be a drain port as well as a port to pour water on top and perhaps a pressure valve or maybe I'll just leave the top port open. Any ideas why this wouldn't work?

outside92129: I will open down south, you're always welcome here and if you need guidance on how to go about, don't hesitate to pm me, I go to san diego very often so I can always just drop off some beers for you if you want as well.

mattd2 · Jan 22, 2012

Double skinned vessels are very common, why not ask who's fabricating the mash tun for you to make it double skinned SS.
Are you direct firing the mash tun? If you are I would consider the effect of the waste heat going up the sides potentialy boiling the jacket water, if it is in a closed system with no pressure releif you could be looking at a boiler explosion. If you are not direct firing the tun, why not just isulated it?

BBL_Brewer · Jan 22, 2012

mattd2 said:
If you are not direct firing the tun, why not just isulated it?

I agree to a point. I have a 1bbl system and my MLT has no heat source at all. I insulated the hell out of it and it holds temp like a champ. Problem is, it's hard to make adjustments if you miss your numbers on the low side. What I've started doing is shooting a few degrees over my target and recirculating via my lauter grant until it cools to my desired temp. Then I stop the recirc and start my rest. You can lose/shed heat rather quickly, gaining heat is the problem. In a controlled environment with properly calibrated equipment you could probably get away with just insulation once you work out your heat loss factors, but it would be nice to have some control measures in place just in case you need them.

day_trippr · Jan 22, 2012

bajabrewer7 said:
After thinking about it, I'm going to wrap copper around my vessel and have a jacket soldered to it, this will be filled with water so the surface area contact will be at it's maximum level. Obviously there will be a drain port as well as a port to pour water on top and perhaps a pressure valve or maybe I'll just leave the top port open. Any ideas why this wouldn't work?[...]

Mistake.

If you're going to have a jacket added to the tun, port the jacket with "goes-in-to" and "comes out of" connections, and get rid of the copper entirely, it's serving no useful purpose. Just recirculate through the jacket ports...

Cheers!

mattd2 · Jan 22, 2012

BBL_Brewer said:
I agree to a point. I have a 1bbl system and my MLT has no heat source at all. I insulated the hell out of it and it holds temp like a champ. Problem is, it's hard to make adjustments if you miss your numbers on the low side. What I've started doing is shooting a few degrees over my target and recirculating via my lauter grant until it cools to my desired temp. Then I stop the recirc and start my rest. You can lose/shed heat rather quickly, gaining heat is the problem. In a controlled environment with properly calibrated equipment you could probably get away with just insulation once you work out your heat loss factors, but it would be nice to have some control measures in place just in case you need them.

The jacketed vessle would be the best way, isulation + temperature ramping. I am a little confused with the OP comment below. How are you getting a new 3bbl with 300' of copper cheaper than a used 3 bbl brewery? Unless you mean a single skin mash tun + 300' copper is less than a double skin tun, but then just ask yourself "If it was just as good but cost a lot less, why isn't everyone doing it this way?"

bajabrewer7 said:
Copper tubing is relatively cheap so I wouldn't mind if I had to buy 300', it would still be much cheaper than buying a used 3bbl system.. would it work though?

bajabrewer7 · Jan 22, 2012

I've looked at used 3 bbl systems and they're not cheap, welding a jacket around a custom made one won't be that expensive for me. With water between the jackets perhaps 300 feet is a bit too much, I don't know, I'll try to make some calculations; still, 100' is around 120 dlls so it's relatively cheap.

I thought about just doing away with the coil as well and recirculate from the bottom up between the jacket. Jury's still out on that.

My goal is to have a functional 3 bbl mash tun fabricated that can hold my temperatures for less than what I could get a same sized one from stout tanks..

mattd2 · Jan 22, 2012

Oh I see what you are saying, basically you can get a 3 bbl fabricated for cheaper (due to whatever reasons - I have found that one of the contract fabricator shops we use at work does pretty good exchange rates on beer for work

) that what someone wants for their used one. Fair enough as I can't see the plant losing much value (unless it is depriciated for tax purposes), and there are not much wearable parts in the actual vessels.
If you are going th "jacketed" route I would do away with the copper coil and just get a "steam/water jacket" with an inlet and outlet on oposite sides of the tank (1 top / 1 bottom)

jacket inlet shown

only single skin but to show the bottom drain

bajabrewer7 · Jan 23, 2012

Yes, I can get things fabricated for a lot less than in the states, hence the reason why I rather not spend the money on used equipment. Thanks for the images!

I will work on my plan for fabrication of a jacketed 3 bbl mash tun with water recirculated through said jacket, inlet port at bottom, outlet on top.

Copper tubing to control mash temperature

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