temperature: aging and brewing ale

The problems I’ve had is like a sweet almost banana taste that over rides the hops even in an over hopped IPA. Some people actually like it. I don’t.

I got my swamp cooler going and hope now to brew ale at between 60 and 70degrees. Will I solve this with a swamp cooler? What is the down side to temperature fluctuationof up to 10 degrees?

I am aging the ale between 72 and 85 degrees? Is this causing the problem and if so how can I eliminate it? Thanks.

Always try to keep your ales fermenting under 70. If you ferment at a higher temp (above 70) you will start to create phenols in your beer that will contribute to the banana flavors. Try to ferment around 65 if possible....as your beer ferments it creates heat and can rise by 1-5 degrees depending on the yeast strain you use. Not sure what a swamp cooler is...? Temp fluctuations during fermentation are not good except for a few certain styles. (Some Belgians, Hefeweizen, etc)Most all ales should be kept at a steady temp....as steady as you can keep it. Aging at higher temps shouldn't contribute to the banana flavors too mauch but it still isn't a good idea.....if you can ferment at 65 than keep your beer at 65 until you rack it to a bottle or keg....usually after two weeks in the primary.

What will temp. fluxuation during fermentation, say 60 to 70 degrees do? What is the neg. effect to aging at 80 degrees or so after its bottled?

I had a great batch out of the fermenter but after 3 weeks in bottles it's crap. I'm aging in the upper 70s and 80s. Is that the issue?

Most of those banana flavors you are talking about will be created within the first few days of fermentation if your temps are high. Like mentioned above, if you can lower your fermentation temperature that should take care of that. I like to do my IPA's pretty low in the 62-65 range to get a nice clean beer and to accentuate the hops. I usually keg, but if I bottle I let it carb for 2-3 weeks in a dark closet with temperatures around 78 max. If I'm aging I like to keep them cooler if possible. I prefer to stay away from the 80's throughout.

One more thing. Make sure to pitch your yeast at or slightly below your planned fermentation temperature. That should help to get rid of off flavors as well.

at bottling the beer tasted good, very good. Three days later was good, and for the next few weeks great. It mellowed and was great. I used cascade hops and the aroma was great and strong, the after bit very nice like a smooth aromatic IPA. I mean other than one particular beer at a brew pub in Atlanta (320), this was the best beer I’d ever tasted. I was so pleased to really be brewing good beer.
By week four it tastes like crap. It tastes like all the other beers I’ve made: sour, no aroma, no character, just bad. All with different recipes and ingredients, yet all had the same bad after taste and smell. This batch I had “fixed” with better water. Open a bottle and the Cascade hops just popped out into the room. It was just a great ale. Now after a few weeks, about 4, in bottles it tastes like crap. Any ideas? After a year is it just time to give up? Ageing temperature? Bacteria? I can’t tell you how frustrating and expensive this is. Suggestions? Help!

togodoug said:

I had a great batch out of the fermenter but after 3 weeks in bottles it's crap. I'm aging in the upper 70s and 80s. Is that the issue?

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Could be. Treat bottled beer like fermenting beer, especially while it is carbonating. The yeast can still got wonky on you.

I lost 6 bottles of Westveletern 12 to a heat wave. Soured it. Heat (or, temperature cycling) is the enemy of beer. It makes life difficult, as we all don't have basements or spare fridges.

So assuming that your sanitation is good, and that you didn't oxidize it, then heat can indeed be an issue.

Are you making sure all your bottles and caps are clean and well-sanitized? It's weird for 1 bottle to suddenly be terrible with only an extra week in a bottle as the difference. I would be more likely to believe that you had a bottle out of the batch that wasn't properly sanitized and picked something up. IPAs will lose some of the sharp hops taste and aroma over time, but shouldn't go from fantastic to crap in 7 days. I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

at 3 weeks it was wonderful, a few days later it is crap. Just that fast. I had about 10 good ones, then had 5 in one day, jsut go tin a panic and opened thm hoping it was one bad bottel, but nope, all taste like crap, don't smell good, and I think are darker but am not sure.

I really think I'm cleaning well. I fill and submirge bottels in isophor, kep the caps in a bowl of the stuff as I put the caps on, so tehyare still wet. At 3 weeks it was wonderful, a few days later it is crap. Just that fast. I had about 10 good ones, then had 5 in one day, jsut go tin a panic and opened thm hoping it was one bad bottel, but nope, all taste like crap, don't smell good, and I think are darker but am not sure.

Tall_Yotie said:

Could be. Treat bottled beer like fermenting beer, especially while it is carbonating. The yeast can still got wonky on you.

I lost 6 bottles of Westveletern 12 to a heat wave. Soured it. Heat (or, temperature cycling) is the enemy of beer. It makes life difficult, as we all don't have basements or spare fridges.

So assuming that your sanitation is good, and that you didn't oxidize it, then heat can indeed be an issue.

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Wouldn't sanitation show up eariler? If its heat, do I need to keep it cool until drunk?

Are you talking about Iodophor? I believe that is a sanitizer, not a cleaner. You want to clean, then sanitize. I use Oxi-Clean to make cleaning solutions, and Star-San is the standard for sanitizers. Another cheap safe bet is change out all of your tubing that you use for bottling...the one attached to any auto-siphon, bottling wands etc. Pull the spigot to your bottling bucket apart and soak everything in cleaner first...then soak in sanitizer before using again. I had an issue with this exact thing, and it ruined several batches before I changed out my hosing and got my cleaning/sanitizing in order.

Good luck...it can be frustrating, but you'll figure out the issue, and then once you get your fermentation temperature under control, you'll be making some stellar brews!

Iodophor, yes. I clean with soap and water, pump soapy water and the iodophor through the tubing. But if its sanitation, would it taste good for a few weeks and then go bad?

In general, I'm sure it could. Or it could be something infected somewhere in the hoses/spigot, that you haven't gotten clean because you haven't used a good cleaner...I wouldn't suggest soapy water, it is known to leave a residue that doesn't come right off with rinsing. It's like $10 for a large tub of oxi-clean. I usually just use 1 scoop per 5 gallons and SOAK equipment in there for at least several minutes. Make sure you get it inside all of the hoses too...cleaner AND sanitizer. At this rate though, I would still consider new hoses...it's CHEAP for vinyl hosing at HD/Lowes, and it's worth it for peace of mind.

I also make spray bottle solutions of cleaner and sanitizer. This makes it more convenient for smaller cleaning/sanitizing jobs. Some say the cleaner is only really effective when its fresh and while the water is still hot though, so if I'm cleaning a bottling bucket and equipment to bottle, I'll usually make a fresh batch! (and fill up my spray bottle while I'm at it)

After making these adjustments on my system, I haven't had any mysterious off-batches anymore.

chapa said:

Are you talking about Iodophor? I believe that is a sanitizer, not a cleaner. You want to clean, then sanitize. I use Oxi-Clean to make cleaning solutions, and Star-San is the standard for sanitizers. Another cheap safe bet is change out all of your tubing that you use for bottling...the one attached to any auto-siphon, bottling wands etc. Pull the spigot to your bottling bucket apart and soak everything in cleaner first...then soak in sanitizer before using again. I had an issue with this exact thing, and it ruined several batches before I changed out my hosing and got my cleaning/sanitizing in order.

Good luck...it can be frustrating, but you'll figure out the issue, and then once you get your fermentation temperature under control, you'll be making some stellar brews!

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I am fermenting in mid to upper 60s. The temperature issue is after its in a bottle. Yes, I'm very frustrated and do appreciate your advice and that of others
When you say you had the same issue, was your beer good right at bottling and for a few weeks and then it went sour? I do now soak EVERYTHING in sanatizer, run it through the spigot and tubes and all so am frustrated and at my wits end to figure this out. Like I said I made about 6 crappy batches until this one, which was great for about 3 weeks, ten or more bottles, then I gave opne to a friend and he said it wasn't very good, so I tasted another one and the next 5 and they all suck. It was for a few weeks, no kidding, great beer, not really good, great! Then it turned while aging. SO is it that bacteria is growing over thatn time period, or growng as its aged to warm, or is yeast still live and doing something. What?

togodoug said:

Wouldn't sanitation show up eariler? If its heat, do I need to keep it cool until drunk?

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For showing up earlier, if it is sanitation as far as bottling goes, it will show up at that later point. Once carbonation occurs, try to keep the brews cool.

I saw you mentioned soapy water being pumped through. Only use soap, if ever, after the brew day to scrub off grain crap and the like. Soap is NOT a good thing to have touch your beer. You need to make sure all of the soap residue is rinsed off as good as possible even before you do the sanitation step. This could honestly be the big issue.

After brew day I wash and rinse everything very well, that way when it comes to bottling time all I have to do is rinse off any dust and then sanitize with my StarSan (super easy, I recommend it).

You said you had previous batches that were crap. Can you explain the off flavor / bad taste?


Next batch try to not use any soap. Rinse off the equipment thoroughly. Your equipment should be put away clean, so there should be no need for soaping anything on brew or bottle day.

I have cleaned with dish soap after brewing and botteling. At brewing and then botteling I use the Iodophor. At botteling I soak everything in about 3 gals of it, bottels and all, run it through the tubes and spigot, submerge the bottles and all.
The bad taste is like sour / bitter but NOT hoppy. In fact it kills the hop taste. It could be called astringent, maybe. Some one also said like bad bananas, but I think not.
MY TIME LINE WAS WRONG. It was good, great, I mean great for 200 days then it went sideways.

Hello Togo.I was reading your post " it still tastes bad" last night and ran across this one today. I had some thoughts you may want to try; use oxyclean as your cleaner (not soap) and sanatizer as you have been, soaking and scrubbing as needed. You brewed with imported mountain water to make your first good brew.MMMM so good. You also said the local filtered water and distilled water was crap; had lime and salt,along with other chemicals for treating it. My idea was to use filtered (RO)watered that you distill by boiling the minerals and chemical away. Thus you start with filtered distilled water for cleaning and mountain water (has the minerals that yeast like) for brewing. It seem to me you have a residue left after cleaning, so by boiling your filtered water say 30 minutes you will leave the residue in the pot you boil it in rather than in the brew. I like to keep thing simple , hope this idea can help.

Quick note I like the safale us 04 & 05 for IPA, ferment at 68 f and store after bottleing at the same temp. or lower. never let the sun or heat get to it except to drink it CHEERS and good luck.

I primarily use hot water and bleach to clean and sanitize all of my equipment (carboys, bottles, hoses, siphons, etc.). I do mix up about a quart of no-rinse sanitizer on brew day to sanitize a few things during brew time...but 98% of everything else was cleaned and sanitized using good old fashioned bleach...soak for 20 minutes and rinse with hot tap water.

Firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principles and have never had an infection adhering to this system.

gclunde said:

I primarily use hot water and bleach to clean and sanitize all of my equipment (carboys, bottles, hoses, siphons, etc.). I do mix up about a quart of no-rinse sanitizer on brew day to sanitize a few things during brew time...but 98% of everything else was cleaned and sanitized using good old fashioned bleach...soak for 20 minutes and rinse with hot tap water.

Firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principles and have never had an infection adhering to this system.

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what is KISS? Even thought the beer was great for 10 days, sanitation is still the assumed problem?

it seems most folks agree the issue is sanitation, not aging temp. It just seemed that with 10 good days in the bottle it was something else. All my other beers with the same bad taste tasted bad right off.

K.I.S.S. =

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

So basically try to eliminate as many variables as you can. Oh and never use soap.

This is probably obvious, but I didn't see it mentioned. What color bottles are you using?

Most of the focus in this thread has been on temperature and sanitation. What about carbonation? Carbonic acid has jind of a sour, astringent taste to it.
OP, how did you prime your bottles? What sugar, how much?
My over-carbed beers (over carbed but not bottle bombs) taste pretty awful. You can't even get to the good flavors because of the harsh carbonation.
This theory would also explain the time lag...my beers tasted good at week 3, but the extra sugar wasn't fully consumed until a bit later.
Thoughts?

It's not over carbed, and head retention is good. I use a pre messured corn sugar from Midwest Supply, I think 5 oz.
If it was sanitation in botteling, like a spigot or tube, would not some bottles be okay, would it infect all of them, and would it show all at the same time, that is 10 days after in the botles?

no one thinks its aging temp?

Could be aging temp. I said in an earlier post I keep mine below 70 deg. I do not have a basement , but a crawl space under my home and it stays low 60s and dark. Good beer and wine cellar. I also said boiling your filtered water for cleaning may help. Keep the mountain for the brew worked well for you. Have you thought about oxidation while priming and bottling? Did you keep your priming solution covered while it cooled? Pour it in gently and stir it gently? Do you have a length of vinyl hose on the spigot to reach the bottom of each bottle, so as not to to gurgle or splash down the side of the bottle? Keep a cover on the bucket while bottling? This sounds like some simple overlooked step. What kind of bottles are you using ,glass or PET plastic? I would assume you have been through John Palmer website. From your description of the problems ; one was cleaning,one was Yeast, and brew water. You fixed the yeast & brew water; now after 10 days the nasty is back, so it leads me to thing that a simple step or how a step is being done may lead to an answer.The spray bottle with sanitzer kept in a small bucket of sanitizer works great! Every time you grab it you clean your hands too. Every time you touch an item you should be reaching in solution. If you wipe your hand on a towel after getting a cap on then they are dirty again. The wife loves me on brewing & bottling days I drip all over everything. She gets real mad 2 weeks later when I have that stupid drunken smile and say tomarrow sss brew day. hope you the best.

I do not have a hose on my spigot and it does bubble sometimes in the bottel. But the taste is more consistant than the gurgling I'd say. I use a spray bottel on like teh hops pack, yeast pack, prier sugar pack, sstir paddel and so forth. I use glass bottles. I cover prime solution.
I now wonder about "extract twang". I was told aging took up to 4 weeks. Now I hear the beer goes bad in 3 or less.

Hello ToGo. A short length of hose on the spigot to reach the bottm of the bottle while filling with help eliminate oxygen in new beer. Oxygen at the bottling stage is bad, and will effect an after taste. The yeast is still at work when you prime;the oxygen during carbonation could give any number of undesirable flavors. Extract twang you can fix with boiling time, adjust for a late addition of a portion of the extract you use. Dry extract is normally fresher and stores longer; in kits it most often LME. Aging takes as long as you want it to, but the temp. where you store the brew will also effects the end product. If you did allow oxygen in during bottling and aged at the higher temps you mentioned then YES you will get off flavor. You have gotten alot of real good advice from various people on this problem. I would take all the answers, make a plan to follow step by step for your next brew and hope/know you did it all right. Clean, sanatize , good water , boil, clean bottle without any bubble, and store it a cool dark location(68 Deg.) . Chill em down in the fridge and see how they taste. There are alot of steps , but not just one answer. Make your plan and good luck.

BOBrob said:

Hello ToGo. A short length of hose on the spigot to reach the bottm of the bottle while filling with help eliminate oxygen in new beer. Oxygen at the bottling stage is bad, and will effect an after taste. The yeast is still at work when you prime;the oxygen during carbonation could give any number of undesirable flavors. Extract twang you can fix with boiling time, adjust for a late addition of a portion of the extract you use. Dry extract is normally fresher and stores longer; in kits it most often LME. Aging takes as long as you want it to, but the temp. where you store the brew will also effects the end product. If you did allow oxygen in during bottling and aged at the higher temps you mentioned then YES you will get off flavor. You have gotten alot of real good advice from various people on this problem. I would take all the answers, make a plan to follow step by step for your next brew and hope/know you did it all right. Clean, sanatize , good water , boil, clean bottle without any bubble, and store it a cool dark location(68 Deg.) . Chill em down in the fridge and see how they taste. There are alot of steps , but not just one answer. Make your plan and good luck.

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Thanks. I'm still not clear on why it would be good for 10 days and then go south. Oxygen and bacteria make the most sense I guess, something that takes time to grow? If it was the LME I would think it would show up right away, no?

No ,LME will caramelize and the extract twang comes later; dme suspends in the water as you stir instead of sinking to the bottom. When you burn LME you will see black floaties in the wort as you stir. Yes oxygen and bacteria are trouble at bottling time and will show after 2 weeks. Oxygen before yeast is pitch never after. even using a turkey baster to take a sample for F.G. will cause heart ache , get the air out of the bulb before putting it in the wort. Goodluck

BOBrob said:

No ,LME will caramelize and the extract twang comes later; dme suspends in the water as you stir instead of sinking to the bottom. When you burn LME you will see black floaties in the wort as you stir. Yes oxygen and bacteria are trouble at bottling time and will show after 2 weeks. Oxygen before yeast is pitch never after. even using a turkey baster to take a sample for F.G. will cause heart ache , get the air out of the bulb before putting it in the wort. Goodluck

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What would oxygen at botteling taste like? Bitter and astringent? Some say like cardboard. This is the former.

Back to your cleaning water. You said you use tap water for cleaning and it has high lime and chlorine in it. The chlorine and the lime can be gotten rid of by boiling the tap water before use in cleaning. Boil you tap water hard for 30 minutes in a different pot than your brew pot. This will leave any lime or calcium deposits behind in the pot. By using this boiled water for cleaning you will not leave any residue behind to spoil the beer brewed with imported mountain water. You have also asked about temp. after bottled; 70s &80s with the humidity in the 90s will increase the ageing temp. upwards of 90 deg. Use a conversion chart for "wet ball temps." ; this compares air temp. & humidity to give a "real feel" temperature. Make a plan and make beer with any changes you make NOTED so you will know what change was effective. Cheer and good luck.

I just bottled another batch, really, really tried to clean and Sanatize everything. It tasted pterry good at bottling, flat and warm, but good.
BUT I did notice a lot of air in my siphon line. IF this is the problem, what will it taste like?
I used an auto-siphon so am not sure how to correct this.

Hi togo. the auto siphon may be sucking air where the hose is attached to it,use a small clamp to stop that. I too get small bubbles running down the hose sometimes, but you have to wait to drink the beer to know if it was too much. Some people like it. It may have a slight cardboard taste. I must say you will sooner or later correct your problem if you keep making beer. I hope you boiled your cleaning water this time,cause I got a sneaky feeling that is where the issue with the bitterness comes from. try ageing at a constant low 70s too. Good luck &cheers