Terrible Efficiency... Help!

Ok guys... I've tried and tried and tried and I'm still getting crap-tastic efficiency... pretty consistently around 60%. I've read just about everything I can find on the subject and still feel like I'm missing something. I'm hoping that if I run you through what I'm doing that someone will clue me in on what I'm doing wrong.

Equipment:

• 10 Gallon Round Igloo converted, 3/8" ball valve
• 12" False Bottom
• 10 Gallon Blichmann Boilermaker

I used BeerSmith for my mash temps and volumes. This time, using the "Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge" mash profile. I didn't formally pre-heat the mash tun as I let BeerSmith do the adjustments... this time my tun was a little warm from a quick rinse anyways.

Here's what I did today... (in case you're concerned, Black IPA, 11.5 lb grains)

• Added ~3 gallons @ ~168 to mash tun
• Added grain
• Stirred like hell for a few minutes, temp stabalized around 153
• Waited an hour
• Added 1 gal @ ~180, stirred like hell
• Drained (full blast)
• Added ~3.25 gal @ ~168
• Stirred like hell
• Waited 10 minutes
• Drained (full blast)
• Ended up with 6.5 gal in kettle
• Boiled for an hour, ran through CFC, etc

Any ideas? Any glaring mistakes?

Thanks guys.

You forgot to post your pre boil SG and post boil SG readings. The only other thing I might look at is the amount and type of grains.

I just looked at some of your numbers, you said your total in the kettle was 6.5 gallons, but you used a total of 7.25 gallons in the mash. Maybe you don't have BeerSmith calibrated to your system?

Also the crush? Do you crush your own or let LHBS crush for you?

I have found that tall, deep grain beds (like a igloo cooler) usually yield slightly lower efficiency than shallow ones (like a coleman picnic cooler).

Still, you should be able to achieve higher efficiency than that. Could be just a math error, or it might be a poor crush, but your process sounds good.

Hmmm...Well first thought that comes to my mind is your grain crush. You never said if your LHBS crushes it for you, or you crush it. Other than that, try stiring your mash at 40mins and 20mins. That ensures even conversion and you can also check to make sure your temps are still ok.

Another vote for crush. I've found it to have more impact on efficiency when batch sparging than anything else.

Try opening your cooler valve only 1/4-1/2 of the way when draining. The slower the liquid runs through the grain bed the better my efficiency is, I've found. That alone brought be from around 70% to about 75% batch to batch.

Another vote for crush. I batch sparge and get 84-86% efficiency using my Barley Crusher for my grain. My friend uses my equipment from time to time and ends up with 40-60% efficiency. The only difference is who crushes the grain (he uses LHBS).

The more flour the merrier IMHO.

1 - Didn't take gravity of the runnings. I know I should have, but I was worrying about other things
2 - I could probably calibrate BeerSmith better - I figured I needed to get procedurals down before I became overly concerned with calculations.
3 - This set of grains came from Austin Homebrew, milled. Otherwise, I mill myself at LHBS with the default. Can anyone comment on AHS milling?
4 - Last time I only cracked the mash valve 1/2 to 1/4 and I felt like I got better efficiency. This time I tried cranking it all the way because I read a few places that it would be fine... guess not.

Thanks for all of the ideas, I'll get back to you with more in a bit.

jcelgin said:

O
Any ideas? Any glaring mistakes?

Thanks guys.

Click to expand...

Hi jcelgin. I had my own efficiency problem yesterday and since then two more threads on the subject have been posted, so I see I'm not alone...

The most common suggestions I got were:

- Smaller crush. I'm going to try a 26 mil next time - I'd be interested to know what size crush others use.

- Slow down the runoff. I am coming to realize that a properly executed sparge may take the better part of an hour. Try opening the valve 1/4 instead of full blast.

- Use more sparge water. You are sparging with 4.25 gallons, but the ideal amount for your 11.5 lb grain bill would be 5.75 gallons (1/2 gal. per lb.). This can increase efficiency but you will have more water in your kettle to boil off and reach 5 gallons.

Also you didn't break down the grain bill but if your black IPA has a high proportion of darker grains I think that will also negatively impact efficiency because most darker malts have lower diastatic power than common base malts like 2 row and pilsner?

You have very similar equipment to mine. 10g cooler, false bottom, 10g kettle, and a CFC.
You are also mashing thick (like I normally do). The only difference is that I fly sparge, while you batch sparge. I have tried batch sparging, and my efficiency drops from 85% to 80%, so I doubt that would be the cause. I also use Promash rather than Beersmith, but they both produce very similar figures, so that won't be a problem.
Now for the differences:
You say you stirred like hell for a few minutes. I find I need to stir for 10 - 15 minutes to break up the dough balls at that thickness. I also tend to stir from top to bottom, rather than in a circular fashion.
You used 1g of 180F water for a mash out. I use about 1.25g of near boiling water, but (because I fly sparge) I do this before draining the first runnings. I can't see the point of doing a mash-out with a batch sparge, as by the time you have drained this, the grain temperature will have dropped well below 168F, and if you add sparge water at 168F, you will be sparging very cool. When I batch sparged, I used sparge water at about 185F, which raised the grain bed temperature to 165 - 168F.
Finally, you used 7.25g water with 11.5 lbs grain, and ended up with 6.5g in the kettle.
This just doesn't make any sense. With that amount of water, and that amount of grain, you would only end up with ~5.5g in the kettle prior to the boil.

-a.

For what's it worth, the only efficiency I'm worried about is the preboil. After I mash and sparge I take a reading and add a bit of water if necessary. I use Beersmith and follow the instructions to a T. I usually go with medium body, single infusion mash and batch sparge two equal rounds after draining the mash tun. I use a 10 gallon rubbermaid with a square copper manifold. I was getting beers stronger than I wanted so I plugged 80% into the efficiency and I'm right where I need to be.

jcelgin said:

1 - Didn't take gravity of the runnings. I know I should have, but I was worrying about other things

Click to expand...

How are you calculating your efficiency then?

To try to answer more questions...

The grain bill was...
10.5 2-row
.5 Cara 80
.5 Debittered black

I'm interested in a finer crush, but I reeeally trust the guys at AHS... can anyone comment on the milling AHS does?

I do feel like I'm not getting the grain absorbtion I expect... is this a factor of crush, poor stirring, or something else? I really don't know how I could stir more thoroughly, to be honest... I still like hell for about 5 minutes, the temp stops moving (fixed probe on my MLT), and I've never seen a dough ball

I didn't take measurements out of the MLT this time because I figured I would make it or I wouldn't, and if I didn't make it (good effiency) it would already be too late to do anything about it. Based on the grain bill I was expecting around 1.057, and came up (optimistically) at 1.043.

As a side note, any thoughts on adding in some DME to bring up the gravity a bit, or leave her alone?

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I can't wait until Saturday to give this another shot.

I'd vote crush. It is pretty hard to mess up the mash. My efficiency went up about 10% after getting my Barley Crusher and decreasing the gap from the factory settings. I batch sparge and depending on the SG get between 72-85% efficiency. I always have some extra light DME on hand and add as needed after I get my final runnings into the boil kettle. That way the beer stays balanced if you follow the rest of the recipe for hop additions.

GT

If your grain is absorbing less liquid than you expect, then I'd also vote crush. I can't speak about AHS, but I know many homebrew stores crush so coarse that they assume 65-70% efficiency for their kit recipes. If they are crushing for 65% efficiency, and you're getting 60%, then your process is probably pretty decent.

As for your process, 5 min of stirring is on the low side for the dough in, especially for a thicker mash. I stir really well for 10-15 min for the dough in, and then for ~5 min with each sparge addition.

archiefl98 said:

Another vote for crush. I batch sparge and get 84-86% efficiency using my Barley Crusher for my grain. My friend uses my equipment from time to time and ends up with 40-60% efficiency. The only difference is who crushes the grain (he uses LHBS).

The more flour the merrier IMHO.

Click to expand...

I agree with the crush. I was getting ~62-65% with LHBS crush. Ever since I got my BC I've been averaging 84-87%. Get a BC and don't look back!

I'm pretty sure Forrest from Austin Homebrew says he shoots for 70% efficiency with his crush. He can correct me if he likes. That's about what I always got from it before my Barley Crusher. Now I'm hitting about 84% on average.

As for the dough in: I dough in with a grout mixer on a cordless drill on low speed. Works wonders for making sure everything is mixed up nicely.

I'm going to have to vote crush as well. I have a very modified/automated EHERMS setup and the first 5 brews I did with this new setup dropped my efficiency to 65% on average. So, I purchased a Monster Mill 3.2 and tightened the gap past factory specs. The next brew I did was a Double Black IPA. Using BeerTools Pro my OG should have been around 1.09 with an assumed 75% efficiency. Well, to my surprise I hit 86% efficiency and ended up with 1.11 OG. My average efficiency is now 83%-86% simply by crushing my own grains.

Another part of it looks to be that I've probably been missing all of my temps... I'm getting 8 degrees variance on my ambient temp between two thermometers, one of which reads 5 degrees high boiling water... and of course that's the one I've been using for my mash.

Brewing again today if I can get the place cleaned up a bit. Here are the things I'm going to try differently this time...

1. Drain slowly, 1/4 to 1/2 open
2. Increase all temps by 5 degrees to compensate for poor thermometer accuracy
3. Take gravity readings frequently to report back

Anything else?

jcelgin said:

Another part of it looks to be that I've probably been missing all of my temps... I'm getting 8 degrees variance on my ambient temp between two thermometers, one of which reads 5 degrees high boiling water... and of course that's the one I've been using for my mash.

Brewing again today if I can get the place cleaned up a bit. Here are the things I'm going to try differently this time...

1. Drain slowly, 1/4 to 1/2 open
2. Increase all temps by 5 degrees to compensate for poor thermometer accuracy
3. Take gravity readings frequently to report back

Anything else?

Click to expand...

Sounds like good things to try. I also suggest you stir your mash a couple times to ensure no hot/cold spots. Also if you batch sparge, stir the heck out of it when you add your sparge water. Thats about all I can think of....let us know how it goes.

Recipe: AHS Fat Tire Clone. Since it isn't freely available, I'll just say what the website says... 9.5 lb Base Grains, .94 lb Specialty Grain. Now, my grain bill only adds up to 10lb, so there's a little discrepancy, but that's not the point.

Mash Profile: BeerSmith Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
3.1 gal Mash in
1.25 Sparge 1
[Drain]
3.2 Sparge 2
[Drain]

Other notes:
Holy cow, I was definitely missing temps before by probably 7 degrees. That in itself can explain a lot, right?

Draining first runnings...
~2.85 gal @...
Refractometer says a little over 14 Brix
Hydrometer says 1.050 @ 115 (1.060 corrected)

So far so good?

Second runnings:
3.2 gal @ almost 6 Brix (1.023), 1.012 @ 123 (1.023)

Total
6 gal @ 10 Brix

I get about 67% efficiency from your numbers. That is not unreasonable at all using a LHBS crush. Looks like temperature was at least part of your problem and that is solved. Now get a Barley Crusher and you will be in control of the entire process .

GT

Final numbers:
Just under 5 gallons in fermenter at 12 Brix (1.047), about 67% efficiency. I feel good about my process - now just need to get a BC!

Thanks everyone, I was having some serious doubts for a while. I appreciate everyone's help.