Tobacco Road!

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BigKahuna

BigKahuna

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I am thinking of building a Bourbon barrel porter, but with a twist. I'm thinking of sticking a few maduro wrapper cigars in the secondary with the oak. I don't' think that I'll do it, because I really don't want people getting a nicotine buzz from my beer. I did see the Pipe Tobacco thread, and I guess more what I ask...knowing what I know about Nicotine, is how to make tobacco flavor, without using tobacco. But I do think that the tobacco flavors would compliment the beer.
Thoughts?
 
I often hear tobacco as a descriptor in Old Ales, Barleywines, and Imperial Stouts. I am very interested in how to duplicate these flavors. I suspect that oak cubes, of the right toast, could impart it?

...is Nicotine alcohol-soluble?
 
I think that would be really nice if one could create that flavor. With the right malts and amounts i have had beers were there is a slight tobacco flavor but no idea what the grist was made up of.
 
Chriso said:
...is Nicotine alcohol-soluble?
Click to expand...

Hah, I dunno.

I'm sure you could extract it somehow, might take a bit more work though. Maybe butane?

I would avoid leaving tobacco in contact with it for long, the taste sounds like it could work but it'd be hard to get it just right IMO.
 
Taste:
A very smooth vanilla start leads to an organic dark fruit or dank farmhouse fruit middle that is reminiscent of plum, fig, and raisin. The middle also showcases a complex and subtly sweet smoke flavor that is detectable but not overpowering. The finish is nicely hopped but also brings a chocolaty oat flavor. Just before the hopped finish a rich wet maduro tobacco flavor shines through. After taste leaves a fresh hay note that is very pleasing and mellow.
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These were the tasting notes from my Smokey Boggart. The tobacco flavor was nice and subtle. No tobacco was used and it definitely wasn't the driving flavor, but it was there.
 
Kilgore_Trout said:
I'm sure you could extract it somehow, might take a bit more work though. Maybe butane?
Click to expand...

Ah- I was referring to *not* extracting the nicotine (God knows I have a big enough problem with the crap already) and just imparting the taste/sensory perception of the tobacco.
 
I don't think it's advisable to put cigars into your beer. Nicotine is HIGHLY toxic, and it is indeed miscible with water (it's an oil, so it isn't water soluble, but it will mix with water, unlike petroleum based oils). I remember reading a "recipe" to deliberately concentrate nicotine for use as a poison. Supposedly a single can of dip contains enough to provide a lethal dose.

I can't really provide any sources (mostly because I don't remember where I read this crap), so you'll have to chalk this post up to "hearsay." However, I doubt there's a way to dunk cigars in your beer without extracting at least some nicotine, so I think you'll need to find another means of achieving tobacco flavor.
 
Straight from the Merck Index!
Monograph Number: 6551
Title: Nicotine
CAS Registry Number: 54-11-5
CAS Name: 3-[(2S)-1-Methyl-2-pyrrolidinyl]pyridine
Additional Names: 1-methyl-2-(3-pyridyl)pyrrolidine; b-pyridyl-a-N-methylpyrrolidine
Trademarks: Habitrol (Novartis); Nicabate (HMR); Nicoderm CQ (SKB); Nicolan (Elan); Nicopatch (Fabre); Nicotinell (Novartis); Tabazur (Théraplix)
Molecular Formula: C10H14N2
Molecular Weight: 162.23.
Percent Composition: C 74.04%, H 8.70%, N 17.27%
Literature References: From the dried leaves of Nicotiana tabacum and N. rustica where it occurs to the extent of 2 to 8%, combined with citric and malic acids. Extraction procedure: Gattermann, Wieland, Laboratory Methods of Organic Chemistry (New York, 24th ed., 1937); Schwyzer, Die Fabrikation pharmazeutischer und chemisch-technischer Produkte (Berlin, 1931). Purification: Ratz, Monatsh. 26, 1241 (1905). Structure and synthesis: Pinner, Ber. 26, 294 (1893); Pictet, Rotschy, Ber. 37, 1225 (1904); Craig, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 55, 2854 (1933); M. Nakane, C. R. Hutchinson, J. Org. Chem. 43, 3922 (1978). Conformation in soln: T. P. Pitner et al., J. Am. Chem. Soc. 100, 246 (1978). HPLC determn in plasma: M. Harlharan et al., Clin. Chem. 34, 724 (1988). Toxicity data: R. B. Barlow, L. J. McLeod, Brit. J. Pharmacol. 35, 161 (1969). Review and bibliography: Jackson, Chem. Rev. 29, 123 (1941). Review of pharmacology: R. W. Ryall in Neuropoisons: Their Pathophysiological Actions vol. 2, L. L. Simpson, D. R. Curtis, Eds. (Plenum, New York, 1974) pp 61-97; N. L. Benowitz, Ann. Rev. Med. 37, 21-32 (1986). Clinical trial of long-term efficacy in smoking cessation: T. Blondal et al., Brit. Med. J. 318, 285 (1999). Review of clinical experience in Tourette syndrome: A. A. Silver et al., CNS Spectrums 4, 68-76 (1999).
Properties: Colorless to pale yellow, oily liq; very hygroscopic; turns brown on exposure to air or light. Acrid burning taste. Develops odor of pyridine. bp745 247° (partial decompn); bp17 123-125°. Volatile with steam. nD20 1.5282. d420 1.00925. [a]D20 -169.3° (neat); [a]5461 -204.1°. pK1 (15°) 6.16; pK2 10.96. pH of 0.05M soln: 10.2. Forms salts with almost any acid and double salts with many metals and acids. Absorption spectrum: Purvis, J. Chem. Soc. 97, 1035 (1910); Dobbie, Fox, ibid. 103, 1194 (1913). Optical rotatory properties: T. M. Lowry, W. V. Lloyd, J. Chem. Soc. 1929, 1771. Misc with water below 60°; on mixing nicotine with water the volume contracts. Very sol in alc, chloroform, ether, petr ether, kerosene, oils. Distribution of nicotine between water and petroleum oils: Norton, Ind. Eng. Chem., Ind. Ed. 32, 241 (1940). LD50 in mice (mg/kg): 0.3 i.v.; 9.5 i.p.; 230 orally (Barlow, McLeod).
Boiling point: bp745 247° (partial decompn); bp17 123-125°
pKa: pK1 (15°) 6.16; pK2 10.96
Optical Rotation: [a]D20 -169.3° (neat); [a]5461 -204.1°
Index of refraction: nD20 1.5282
Density: d420 1.00925
Toxicity data: LD50 in mice (mg/kg): 0.3 i.v.; 9.5 i.p.; 230 orally (Barlow, McLeod)

Derivative Type: Hydrochloride
CAS Registry Number: 21361-93-3
Molecular Formula: C10H14N2.HCl
Molecular Weight: 198.70.
Percent Composition: C 60.45%, H 7.61%, N 14.10%, Cl 17.84%
Properties: Deliquesc crystals. [a]D20 +104° (p = 10).
Optical Rotation: [a]D20 +104° (p = 10)

Derivative Type: Dihydrochloride
CAS Registry Number: 6019-02-9
Molecular Formula: C10H14N2.2HCl
Molecular Weight: 235.16.
Percent Composition: C 51.08%, H 6.86%, N 11.91%, Cl 30.15%
Properties: Deliquesc crystals, very sol in water and alcohol. Nearly insol in ether.

Derivative Type: Sulfate
CAS Registry Number: 65-30-5
Additional Names: Nicotine neutral sulfate
Molecular Formula: (C10H14N2)2.H2SO4
Molecular Weight: 422.55.
Percent Composition: C 56.85%, H 7.16%, N 13.26%, S 7.59%, O 15.15%
Properties: Six-sided tablets. [a]D20 +88° (p = 70). Sol in water, alcohol.
Optical Rotation: [a]D20 +88° (p = 70)

Derivative Type: Bitartrate
CAS Registry Number: 65-31-6
Additional Names: Nicotine tartrate
Molecular Formula: C10H14N2.2C4H6O6
Molecular Weight: 462.40.
Percent Composition: C 46.75%, H 5.67%, N 6.06%, O 41.52%
Properties: Dihydrate, crystals. mp 90°. [a]D20 +26° (c = 10). Very sol in water or alcohol.
Melting point: mp 90°
Optical Rotation: [a]D20 +26° (c = 10)

Derivative Type: Zinc chloride double salt monohydrate
Molecular Formula: C10H16Cl4N2Zn.H2O
Molecular Weight: 389.49.
Percent Composition: C 30.84%, H 4.67%, Cl 36.41%, N 7.19%, Zn 16.79%, O 4.11%
Properties: Also with 4H2O. Very sol in water; sparingly sol in abs alcohol and ether.

Derivative Type: Salicylate
CAS Registry Number: 29790-52-1
Trademarks: Eudermol
Molecular Formula: C17H20N2O3
Molecular Weight: 300.35.
Percent Composition: C 67.98%, H 6.71%, N 9.33%, O 15.98%
Properties: Six-sided plates, mp 118°. [a]D20 +13° (c = 9). Freely sol in water or alcohol.
Melting point: mp 118°
Optical Rotation: [a]D20 +13° (c = 9)

Derivative Type: Polacrilex
CAS Registry Number: 96055-45-7
Trademarks: Nicorette (HMR)
Literature References: Prepn: S. Lichtneckert et al., DE 2136119; eidem, US 3901248 (1972, 1975 both to AB Leo). Review of efficacy in smoking cessation: K. O. Fagerström, Prog. Clin. Biol. Res. 261, 109-128 (1988).

CAUTION: Nicotine can be absorbed through the alimentary canal, respiratory tract and intact skin. Potential symptoms of overexposure are nausea, salivation, abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhea; headache, dizziness, auditory and visual disturbances; confusion, weakness, incoordination; paroxysmal atrial fibrillation; convulsions, dyspnea. Death may result from paralysis of respiratory muscles. See NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards (DHHS/NIOSH 97-140, 1997) p 224; Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products, R. E. Gosselin et al., Eds. (Williams & Wilkins, Baltimore, 5th ed., 1984) Section III, pp 311-314.
Use: Insecticide; fumigant. In the U.S. a 40% soln of nicotine sulfate, Black Leaf 40, was the commonly used form. As a contact poison it is most effective as soap, i.e., as the laurate, oleate, or naphthenate. As a stomach poison a combination with bentonite has come into use.
Therap-Cat: Treatment of smoking withdrawal syndrome.
Therap-Cat-Vet: Ectoparasiticide. Has been used as an anthelmintic.
Click to expand...
 
I have had beers and wines with a slight tabacco taste. I have found in very small amounts this is almost identical to slight leathery tastes in wines. I would imagine that it is an oak attributed taste but not sure as to what extent of toasting you would do to some cubes to attribute it. I would almost thing a medium char for a slight amount of time in secondary could contribute to that taste. with a belgian yeast maybe? I have noticed it more in belgians that and other "region" as far as beer.
 
Since you can't put your grains through the same process that maduros go though, unless you can get your grains to ferment in the sun, the other option would be to fake it. Some cigar companies dye their maduro cigars and add sugar to the dye to sweeten the flavor. Of course the dye is just for color and would be pointless in your case.

Maybe you could smoke your own grains .. just blow your cigar smoke on 'em.

As a cigar smoker myself, I would find it very unpleasant to drink some cigar nicotine, but could see myself enjoying some tobacco flavor.
 
If you had a smoker, you could set grain out to home-smoke, and put a couple stogies in with the wood chips??????

Just tryin' to brainstorm ;)
 
Chriso said:
If you had a smoker, you could set grain out to home-smoke, and put a couple stogies in with the wood chips??????

Just tryin' to brainstorm ;)
Click to expand...

I was typing that idea .. but then decided not too.

The only thing would be keeping them lit. Unless you're dealing with superb quality, you'll have to puff or blow on them. You'd probably want the same cigar and not several different ones. Cigars vary in flavor just as much as beer.

If you end up needing some just let me know. I've got enough for all of HBT to herf with. :mug:
 
You can get pasteurized tobacco pouches. Camel makes them now, but they've been popular in scandanavia for a long time. they're non toxic i believe. you can swallow the juice with no ill effect anyways. certainly not the same flavor as a nice cigar, but might do something for you...
 
So here is my thought. In its pure form, nicotine is miscable with water, and when it is in its nitrogenous base form, it is actually water soluble. This leads me to believe that you could pretty much "mash" some tobacco and the nicotine will run out. If you make some kind of tobacco tea, the nicotine should dissolve or mix with the hot water leaving the tobacco leaves behind. Just skim the tobacco out and dry and it should be nicotine free. The downside to this is that you may lose some other tobacco flavors from this method, although it would be cheap enough to try out.
 
I say smoke the grains in a tobacco fire...or maybe have a person with smokers-cough/emphysema hock a lugie into the yeast starter. :D
 
I would think there are two different roads to take depending on which tobacco flavor you are going for. Are you going for the burning tobacco flavor that would be tasted as you are smoking a cigar? Or are you looking for a flavor similar to unburnt tobacco?

I'm certainly not an expert at getting either flavor, but I think that would help you narrow down some specific things you can do or ingredients you can add to mimic the desired flavor.
 
I've been thinking of smoking some malt anyway....I might as well do a tobacco smoked malt. How much (normal) smoked malt in a porter? I'll figure out the tobacco part.
 
My idea is to do 3# of smoked malt, and then take a reasonable cigar (a Punch, perhaps), cut width-wise into small tobacco "coins", and then gently set the coins over the smoldering pile of wood chips. Then they should slowly burn/smolder along with the wood chips.

At least as far as beechwood-smoked (e.g. Weyermann) malt, my brewer friend recommends 10-20% for a mild presence, 30-40% of grainbill for a strong presence.
 
wildwest450 said:
Am I the only one that find this thread disturbing?
Click to expand...


Uh...yeah....I am.

I'm a little concerned about the toxins that are in tobacco, that will be wrapping itself around the grains during smoking and then leeching out into the beer....and we're not talking about tobacco itself...I'm talking adjuncts such as,

Ammonia
Fermaldahyde
Carbon Monoxide

AND all the other secret sh*t they won't tell us.


... cigar smoke is known to contain the same toxic and cancer-causing (carcinogenic) chemicals as cigarette smoke. In fact, the mainstream smoke (that drawn into the mouth from the butt) from a cigar has heavier concentrations of these chemicals than the mainstream smoke from cigarettes.
Click to expand...


I dunno guys.....methinks the tobacco flavors are a result of grain and yeast, like so many other flavors we get in out beers...
 
Revvy said:
Uh...yeah....I am.

I'm a little concerned about the toxins that are in tobacco, that will be wrapping itself around the grains during smoking and then leeching out into the beer....and we're not talking about tobacco itself...I'm talking adjuncts such as,

Ammonia
Fermaldahyde
Carbon Monoxide

AND all the other secret sh*t they won't tell us.
Click to expand...

I think you are being a wuss! **EDIT! :D
It's not like we are talking about dry hoping with cigarette tobacco from the Marlboro Man! We are taling about using a 100% natural Premium cigar or 2 in a smoker with wood to smoke a pound or 2 of malt that will be mashed with 8 or 9 more pounds of grain to be mashed in 3 or more gallons of water, and then diluted to 8 gallons of water where any odd chemicals that may be there in uber tiny amounts will volatilize and boil off in the 90 minutes or more that it will boil!
I refuse to think that using tobacco in a smoker will add any significant toxins that the wood won't!
 
I'm gonna need some serious high tech bottles for this as a lable

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Sfh8LFMaw]YouTube - Tabacco Road - Eric Burdon and the Animals[/ame]
 
How about putting some grains in an airtight container with a couple cigars or other form of tobacco and "aging" it for a while. Might impart unsmoked tobacco flavors. Then just use the tobacco flavored grain for mashing.
 
Not having read pages 2 & 3, I imagine someone has already suggested it, but couldn't you just smoke part of the grain by smoking a cigar and blowing the smoke onto the grain???

Or smoke the grain like a piece of meat with a cigar instead of wood chips?
 
How about putting some grains in an airtight container with a couple cigars or other form of tobacco and "aging" it for a while. Might impart unsmoked tobacco flavors. Then just use the tobacco flavored grain for mashing.
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This sounds like a good idea. If you have a humidor you could put 1-1/2 lbs of 2 row in there along with the cigars for 4 weeks - I bet the combination of tobacco and spanish cedar would be awesome.
 
I like cigars as much as the next cigar whore (just smoked a Fuente Chateau Sungrown!), but I think I'll keep my cigars for smoking and my beer for drinking... separate, but equal.;)
 
leghorn said:
If you have a humidor
Click to expand...

IF I have a Humidor....:D
IMG_0106.jpg
 
newkarian said:
How about putting some grains in an airtight container with a couple cigars or other form of tobacco and "aging" it for a while. Might impart unsmoked tobacco flavors. Then just use the tobacco flavored grain for mashing.
Click to expand...

This could work, but it would take a little longer than that for the flavors to meld together.

Although I do like the spanish cedar idea. That could be an interesting flavor.

That's a cute humi, BK. ;)

I see you like Don Tomas, have you had a chance to try their Sun Grown line? That's the only DT stick I can stand to smoke ... but it's mighty good!
 
Several points from the chef in me...

The storage of grains with the cigar would certainly impart a good bit of flavor, depending on the length of time and strength of the flavor you are looking to impart. Very strong flavors like truffles are commonly stored in rice or eggs to impart their flavor.

I know that when Anthony Bordain ate at the French Laundry, Thomas Keller's staff whipped up a Tobacco infused coffee custard with seared fois gras as a play on the fact that Tony is/was an unapologetic smoker. Granted I'm sure it was a minimal amount, but it happened.

I'm sure the smoking idea would work, but I would start with a very very small amount of "stogie-smoked" grain in my grain bill. This might be a good one to brew up a few 1G batches before you roll into a dedicated five gallons of it.

Just my .02
 
newkarian said:
How about putting some grains in an airtight container with a couple cigars or other form of tobacco and "aging" it for a while. Might impart unsmoked tobacco flavors. Then just use the tobacco flavored grain for mashing.
Click to expand...

This..I think....would probably be the safest way to do it...kinda like cold steeping coffee...


BK, Hermano...having been a smoker of various tobacco products most of my life I can understand where you're coming from, BUT it's not like we're dealing with a pure herb/spice, that you wanna work into your flavor profile...we're talking poisons and toxins on so many levels...

I think you have to minimize the chemicals in the tonacco as much as possible...Hey does that native american tobacco company that touts themselves as 100% pure make cigars????

If I were gonna attempt something like this, I would go for something with thye fewest adjuncts as possible...
 
Yuri_Rage said:
I don't think it's advisable to put cigars into your beer. Nicotine is HIGHLY toxic, and it is indeed miscible with water (it's an oil, so it isn't water soluble, but it will mix with water, unlike petroleum based oils). I remember reading a "recipe" to deliberately concentrate nicotine for use as a poison. Supposedly a single can of dip contains enough to provide a lethal dose.
Click to expand...

Thats very true. The LD50 dosage ( dosage at which 50% of the population will die is only about 60mg. A can of Copenhagen or a pack of cigarettes is probably more than enough to kill you, unless you're very large - but at the least its going to make you very ill.
 

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