ideas how to keep a kettle sour warm?

Any ideas how to keep a kettle sour warm for 3 days? trying to keep it at 120f if possible. I'd prefer something I wouldn't have to tend to often.

If you can fit your kettle in the oven with a heater pad, that's a good way to do it.

I have been reading about this recently, hoping to brew a sour mash/kettle Berliner Weisse style beer in the next few weeks.

The method I saw and was keen to try is to mash in an insulated cooler and add boiling water every 8 hours to keep the temp up. You could do the same in a kettle I suppose.

If you have a fermentation chamber a decent heat source could keep a small chamber at temp I would imagine.

Anyway im more here to see how you get on, keep us updated.

PS are you using a pure strain or inoculating with grains?

ol-hazza said:

I have been reading about this recently, hoping to brew a sour mash/kettle Berliner Weisse style beer in the next few weeks.

The method I saw and was keen to try is to mash in an insulated cooler and add boiling water every 8 hours to keep the temp up. You could do the same in a kettle I suppose.

If you have a fermentation chamber a decent heat source could keep a small chamber at temp I would imagine.

Anyway im more here to see how you get on, keep us updated.

PS are you using a pure strain or inoculating with grains?

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Trying the do a Berliner Weisse and inoculating with grains. I'm planning on 3 gallon batch for now. So my plan was either do a fermwrap around a 3 gallon fermentor, inside my mash tun with the lid on. Or possibly looking into an aquarium heater and water in a mash tun. Not sure if either of those would give enough heat to get to 120f though.

Do you keg?
I've done one kettle sour, just recently, and was extremely pleased with the results. I racked into a keg after mashing, and soured in there before transferring back to the kettle for boil. I kept the temp up with a fermwrap, and I modified a lid to accept a stopper with a thermowell.

The keg allowed me to purge the b'geezus out of it during the kettle sour. O2 is your worst enemy.

I was going to start a sour mash tonight for both a Gose and Lichtenhainer. In the past I've done the boiling water every so often method with decent results (I sour the whole mash in my MLT). I've also just used saran wrap directly on the grain bed to keep O2 out, again with decent results. I was going to try the dry ice trick this time around, but didn't have a chance to grab the dry ice so I postponed.

The one thing I can recommend is dropping the pH to 4.5 first with lactic acid if you're going to innoculate with grains. Helps keep the nasty stuff at bay.

If you can get it, try OYL-605. It sours incredibly fast at 80-90F. If all goes well, within 12 hours. Makes the struggles of keeping your kettle warm enough kind of a moot point.

If you can't get it, I've had really good luck at room temp with making a starter from grain in a 1 quart jug. 1.040 wort, and as mentioned above, drop ph to 4.5. If your starter turns out ok, sour in a carboy with your starter at room temp. The carboy keeps out O2. Again, drop your wort pH to 4.5. I've had really quick sours from grain this way, like within 24 hours. Making a starter helps ensure you'll have viable bacteria. Good luck!

Qhrumphf said:

I was going to start a sour mash tonight for both a Gose and Lichtenhainer. In the past I've done the boiling water every so often method with decent results (I sour the whole mash in my MLT). I've also just used saran wrap directly on the grain bed to keep O2 out, again with decent results. I was going to try the dry ice trick this time around, but didn't have a chance to grab the dry ice so I postponed.

The one thing I can recommend is dropping the pH to 4.5 first with lactic acid if you're going to innoculate with grains. Helps keep the nasty stuff at bay.

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I was trying to figure out how you keep it warm with dry ice *facepalm*

its kind of a pain in the ass to do if you dont have a temp controller and electric heating element. i put my kettle in a keg bucket filled with hot water, and then use temp controller and heater stick to maintain temp. can run for days if you need to, but usually done in about 48 hours. best temp control if you also have small pump or other device to keep water moving around.

or if you dont have that setup or equipment, then get a heating pad and wrap it around kettle and keep tabs on temp. might not get to 120, but 90-100 should happen.

if you're using grains instead of a lacto culture, use acid malt. its covered in both lacto and lactic acid already so it helps speed process along.

Just did a sour wort a few weeks ago and maintained 110 deg for 4 days easily in a 70deg garage:

-Soured in a purged corny keg
-Fermwrap taped around the corny keg which was in a large bucket
-Fermwrap plugged into a STC-1000 thermostat
-Bubble wrap and blankets in and around the bucket

I liked the corny keg approach, easy to pull samples and o2 and directly heating a plastic fermenter was not a concern. So far the beer is tasting much cleaner (no buteric) than my previous sour wort attempts.

When souring a mash is there a need for it to vent like a fermentation?

Also when using sour malt what % of the grist do you recommend? I've read 10% will add sour flavour as well as drop to the desired pH

Wow so many great ideas, thank you guys! This is why I love this forum. I will post an update in this thread when I make my attempt.

So my first crack at a sour, so far i just hit my stove burner for like 5-10 seconds every so often seems to be maintaining 90*+ you can see decent bubbles forming under the saran wrap i laid on the wort, so far the smell reminds me of sourdough pretzels or maybe a slight hint of sauerkraut which i hope is a good sign no vomit or fecal smells,

Grain bill was 5.5lb 2row 2lb 11oz white wheat and 4oz acid malt for mash ph, then after 60 min i pulled the grain bag chilled to 110 and added 14.5 oz of uncrushed acid malt for the bacteria and to further drop ph

http://anarchylane.com/blog/?p=1442

That was one of the many webpages i read up about quick souring

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1437275489.359989.jpg

LemonJelly said:

Any ideas how to keep a kettle sour warm for 3 days? trying to keep it at 120f if possible. I'd prefer something I wouldn't have to tend to often.

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Already mentioned, but try this: http://www.omegayeast.com/?portfolio=lactobacillus-blend

The lab is in Chicago, so you should be able to find some. If not, let me know. I just bought a pack and was going to get a starter going. I can send you some with the rest of the stuff I have for you.

For what it's worth, the dropping a few small pieces of dry ice any time I opened the MLT for my sour mash did wonders for making a ridiculously clean sour mash.

Some folks from MTF have been using an Anova Sous-vide cooker. Plus you can cook with it.

When I "kettle sour" I mash, do a quick 10min boil to pasteurize the wort, transfer to a glass carboy, put that inside a round cooler (leaves about 1in gap all the way around), put fermwrap between cooler and carboy, hook the whole thing up to a Johnson controller with a thermowell for the probe. Only reason I do the quick boil is I use pure strain culture for bugs. I find I lose about 1 degree per hour or two, and with a 4 degree range it takes about 20 minutes or so to bring it back to temp, usually around 110.

I just picked up a 6 quart Instant Pot pressure cooker for $108 on Amazon Prime during their 1 day sale. Going to either pick up some lactic acid to get the wort down to 4.5 and throw in unmilled grain or buy a lacto pack and add it to the 1.040 wort. Plan was to do 3 days in the cooker on their yogurt setting ~110-115 from what the manual says.

My question is should I do 4-5 quarts of 1.040 wort in the pressure cooker and then add it to the entire batch boil on brew day 3 days after it has been souring? Just wondering how sour this method will get the entire batch after 3-4 weeks in primary. I'll be pitching this entire batch onto a big brett blend that I've got in a brett IPA.

I know this is an old thread, but I have one follow-up about keeping temperature during the kettle souring process.

Based on the advice from this thread, I just purchased a fermwrap and temp controller, so I will be fine keeping ~115 during the lacto fermentation. I plan on doing so in a corny keg covered by two fermenting buckets. I am going to crimp the dip tube to create a thermowell and control based on that temp.

My question is how to keep the starter warm enough with the same equipment. The volume of the starter will be less than 2 liters. The corny keg will provide the most control, but I feel like there will be too much headspace in it for the starter to keep temp.

Do you think I should let the starter sit for a few days in an erlenmeyer flask with the ferm wrap loosely wrapped around it? This approach will minimize headspace. Another approach is to let the starter sit in the 5 gallon stock pot that I'll be boiling in. The stock pot won't fit in the fermenting buckets, so I'll have to rest them in a keg bucket. The flask and stock pot both involve my temperature probe coming into contact with the starter, which I am trying to avoid.

What approach have you guys used for the 2-3 day starter heat hold? Keg? Erlenmeyer flask? Stock pot?

I may be overthinking this. It is my first sour, so I want to make sure it pays off.

Quick thought. Combine the flask and stock pot idea. Place flask in stock pot. Wrap stock pot with ferm wrap. Control water temp to jacket the flask.

You could use Omega Lacto blend and not worry about temperature. I usually just pitch it at 100-110 and let it free fall over night. Usually hits a pH of around 3.28-3.33 within 24 hours.

I put my lacto starter in a 10 gallon kettle with a temp controller and mini heater. The kettle was wrapped in blankets and towels to help retain some of the heat. I set it for 95'F and let it sit there for 36 hours. Dropped the pH from 5.0 to 3.8

I have been using a 5 gallon cylindrical cooler to kettle sour (Cooler Sour)

I preheat it with very hot tap water. Then drain it and immediately put the wort in it, full to the brim at 120F (with my lacto starter). Let it sit 3 days as drops down to 95F.

Lacto works 140F to 60F.

Cost me $10... I have 1/8" hole drilled in the lid for a stem thermometer. I cover the lid with a beach towel since its not insulated.

You may be over thinking it just as I was before I did my first sour a week ago. I kept the starter in the garage where it stayed between 78-80F and it turned out just fine.

Soured my wort where I needed it in 24 hours once pitched.

arnobg said:

You may be over thinking it just as I was before I did my first sour a week ago. I kept the starter in the garage where it stayed between 78-80F and it turned out just fine.

Soured my wort where I needed it in 24 hours once pitched.

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Temps important to optimize the souring activity, however I think you're right.

From what I understand keeping it oxygen free is probably more important thing to focus on while souring and making a good starter, tailored chemically, for whatever microbe you're trying propagate.

Thanks for the feedback!

I tested a few setups this weekend with water in my flask and have found a usable solution. Flask surrounded by heating pad inside of a plastic bucket. Attach lid to bucket and place bucket in a cool brewing fermentation bag (insulation). Simply hooking the heating pad up to an ltc-308 kept the water at a steady 115 for the entire weekend.

Question about souring in the keg after my mash... If I sour in the keg, am I able to condition in that same keg after fermentation? Or will it have leftover lacto bugs from the souring process? If I use a corny for kettle souring, do I have to dedicate this corny to ONLY kettle souring? If so, I may choose to use a carboy, bucket, or something more replaceable.

I will definitely have the best control using a corny keg, but if I have to dedicate a keg to souring and a separate keg for conditioning/serving, I'll probably use the kettle itself or a carboy in a kettle just to save on equipment.

I can't answer your question about the cornies.... Never did it, but I use the cooler so I don't have the dilemma you have with a soured/infected keg.

BTW - I use a yogurt maker for making the starter.

Google " Dash Yogurt Maker ". I got this sucker for $5.99 at Target. It was on clearance. It keeps the contents at 100F. Prefect for lacto, since it incubates yogurt cultures.

Does up to 1.5L sized starter.

http://www.target.com/p/dash-go-yog...4Xks7qG4iHs-G68_kN4WIBoCbcnw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

View attachment 1471906277262.jpg

smalloy88 said:

Thanks for the feedback!

I tested a few setups this weekend with water in my flask and have found a usable solution. Flask surrounded by heating pad inside of a plastic bucket. Attach lid to bucket and place bucket in a cool brewing fermentation bag (insulation). Simply hooking the heating pad up to an ltc-308 kept the water at a steady 115 for the entire weekend.

Question about souring in the keg after my mash... If I sour in the keg, am I able to condition in that same keg after fermentation? Or will it have leftover lacto bugs from the souring process? If I use a corny for kettle souring, do I have to dedicate this corny to ONLY kettle souring? If so, I may choose to use a carboy, bucket, or something more replaceable.

I will definitely have the best control using a corny keg, but if I have to dedicate a keg to souring and a separate keg for conditioning/serving, I'll probably use the kettle itself or a carboy in a kettle just to save on equipment.

Click to expand...

With a corny keg, you have to watch out for the rubber o-rings. This is where you bugs will hide. So you could have a set of sour o-rings and a set of clean o-rings and swap them out when cleaning the keg.

Other option as you mentioned is to use a carboy and dedicate an air lock and bung to sours.

crane said:

With a corny keg, you have to watch out for the rubber o-rings. This is where you bugs will hide. So you could have a set of sour o-rings and a set of clean o-rings and swap them out when cleaning the keg.

Other option as you mentioned is to use a carboy and dedicate an air lock and bung to sours.

Click to expand...

So this sour set of o-rings can be used for this same batch for conditioning and serving? I wasn't sure if exposure to the bugs post-fermentation would have any negative effect.

I ran a test last night, filled kettle with 5 gallons of 120 F water. Set my temperature to 110 and placed the kettle and a heating pad in an insulated cool brewing bag. It stayed around 108 until I went to bed. When I woke up it was around 100 F. Apparently the heating pad has a built in shutoff timer as a safety interlock. I am fine with this as long as I keep an eye on it and reset the timer. The only thing I'm worried with the kettle is eliminated oxygen. Both the carboy and keg option would have much better control over oxygen elimination.

Sour option #1
Purge corny keg with CO2
Transfer to corny keg
Hold at 110 F for 24 hours (thermowell in dip tube)
keep in CoolFerment bag w/ heating pad temp controlled at 110

Sour option #2
Purge glass carboy with CO2
Transfer to Carboy
Sit in Kettle w/ water surrounding contents
Hold at 110 F for 24 hours (thermowell in rubber stopper)
wrap kettle w fermwrap insulate

Sour option #3
Keep in kettle
sweep CO2 over wort for 60 seconds or use dip tube and occasionally bubble CO2 through
Cover in plastic wrap
wrap in fermwrap and insulate (temp probe direct contact w wort)
Kettle may be too hot to insulate right away with ferm blanket

Option 1: PROS-best temperature control, best O2 prevention, CONS-contaminates keg, multiple transfers required. I'm ok with this as long as I can condition and serve in the same keg that I soured in.
Option 2: PROS- good temperature control (can add hot water to kettle to serve as a jacket), OK O2 prevention, CONS- contaminates 1 carboy, no test to see how well temperature holds
Option 3: PROS-No transfer required, No contamination (will boil off all lacto bugs), CONS-Not as good temp or O2 control, relying on heat capacity to retain temp and initial CO2 blanket to create anaerobic environment

I will probably get going on this later in the week. Currently weighing my options...

smalloy88 said:

I know this is an old thread, but I have one follow-up about keeping temperature during the kettle souring process.

Based on the advice from this thread, I just purchased a fermwrap and temp controller, so I will be fine keeping ~115 during the lacto fermentation. I plan on doing so in a corny keg covered by two fermenting buckets. I am going to crimp the dip tube to create a thermowell and control based on that temp.

My question is how to keep the starter warm enough with the same equipment. The volume of the starter will be less than 2 liters. The corny keg will provide the most control, but I feel like there will be too much headspace in it for the starter to keep temp.

Do you think I should let the starter sit for a few days in an erlenmeyer flask with the ferm wrap loosely wrapped around it? This approach will minimize headspace. Another approach is to let the starter sit in the 5 gallon stock pot that I'll be boiling in. The stock pot won't fit in the fermenting buckets, so I'll have to rest them in a keg bucket. The flask and stock pot both involve my temperature probe coming into contact with the starter, which I am trying to avoid.

What approach have you guys used for the 2-3 day starter heat hold? Keg? Erlenmeyer flask? Stock pot?

I may be overthinking this. It is my first sour, so I want to make sure it pays off.

Click to expand...

Well, I hate to be the guy that answers your question about thing A by instead telling you to try thing B, but if alternatively you could do away with that extra equipment, making a starter, all the hassle, and even save some money and just go with a strain that sours well in a short time without needing to be heated.

Lactobacillus Plantarum will do the trick in 24-48 hours at lower temps and even works at room temp as well. It's available in a large number of probiotics. I particularly like the Swanson's Inner Bowel support capsules. They are $10 for 30 capsules (on sale currently BOGO), and I use 1 per gallon of wort, which even that is a bit of overkill.

You just open them up and toss them in. No starter required. Also, it's a pure strain of Lacto you're working with here, so you don't have to purge with CO2, and you don't have to worry about the death stench. I usually chill my wort down to 100F, pitch the pills, and then just let the temp free fall for 24-48 hours while the pH rises. Works ever time and will go terminal at about 3.1 - 3.2 pH.

One word of caution - Plantarum is pretty hop sensitive so be sure you are doing this in unhopped wort. I do fermenter sours, don't even boil and generally only do dry hops, but if you're going to add hops you'll want to do it after you've soured.