Question about my dryer outlet and a 3500watt element (w pictures)

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rtt121

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I have searched for a while now and can't seem to find the answer to this.

I recently read jkarp's counter top brewery brutus 20 and I want to do something along those lines.

I have most of what I need and this could be a great winter set up for me. I want to turn my 10 gallon mega pot into an electric kettle with a 3500 w ld heating element.

I plan on using the conduit box tuturial on theelectricbrewery.com.

It seems everyone is using a controller of some sort either PID or PWM or SSR or some combination of the three. For right now I do not need any automation and would like to simply plug and unplug the kettle when necessary.

My outlet is my dryer outlet and is 3 prong:
dscn1552gn2.jpg



Can I just use a plug like this directly with the element?:

31K1GoyZVxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
 
The way I first had my electric keggle set up was like that. I had the two hot leads going to the element, and the ground to the metal of the keggle just under the connection between keggle and element. I then used the circuit breaker as my switch and it would always be off when plugging/unplugging it. Now this is not the safest way to do it. Ideally, one should at least have a GFCI breaker so that if something does go wrong you don't end up fried. [\2¢]
 
I probably would put a switch. Is there such thing as a plug in 240 gfci?

What I and many others have done is to buy a 50 amp spa disconnect panel from Home Depot for about $50. This is a metal enclosure with a 50 amp GFCI breaker and terminal blocks. Hook the dryer cord you have in the picture to the inputs in the spa disconnect box and take your outputs from the breaker. IIRC I tied the ground wire of the dryer cord to the neutral block in the box and then tied the neutral block and the ground block together. White pigtail wire from the breaker goes to the neutral block, outputs come from the breaker itself and output ground is from the ground block in the box.
 
... IIRC I tied the ground wire of the dryer cord to the neutral block in the box and then tied the neutral block and the ground block together. White pigtail wire from the breaker goes to the neutral block, outputs come from the breaker itself and output ground is from the ground block in the box.
The problrm with that is you have the ground and the neutral "tied together" after the GFCI breaker. With that said - there is no protection for you...!!

Seperate the neutral and ground before the GFCI and you could eliminate the issue.

(I'd like to see the diagram of that before you decide to implement it though.)
 
The problrm with that is you have the ground and the neutral "tied together" after the GFCI breaker. With that said - there is no protection for you...!!

Seperate the neutral and ground before the GFCI and you could eliminate the issue.

(I'd like to see the diagram of that before you decide to implement it though.)


The problem is that this is a 2 wire with ground outlet. There is no separate neutral. Ground has to be run to the equipment, but the GFCI breaker also requires a "neutral" in order to work. The only option is to tie the breaker "neutral" input to the ground. And it does provide protection, because I have verified that mine trips the breaker if there is an unbalanced load.

EDIT: I'll add that you can't use neutral for your equipment with this configuration (no 120 V loads). The only wires out of the spa disconnect box are the two hots and the ground - 240 volts only.
 
The problem is that this is a 2 wire with ground outlet. There is no separate neutral. Ground has to be run to the equipment, but the GFCI breaker also requires a "neutral" in order to work. The only option is to tie the breaker "neutral" input to the ground. And it does provide protection, because I have verified that mine trips the breaker if there is an unbalanced load.
 
The problem is that this is a 2 wire with ground outlet. There is no separate neutral. Ground has to be run to the equipment, but the GFCI breaker also requires a "neutral" in order to work. The only option is to tie the breaker "neutral" input to the ground. And it does provide protection, because I have verified that mine trips the breaker if there is an unbalanced load.

It sounded like a great idea. So what you are saying is that with my 2 wire and ground, hooking up the spa gfci would be in effect doing nothing?
 
To answer the OP question:

Yes. That will work just fine.

There's a lot of things you need to do to make it work better, and a lot safer - But it'll work.

Breakers work fine for switching power on and off. It's not ideal, but how many commercial buildings turn their lights on and off with breakers?

A 3500 watt element will draw less than 15 amps on the 30 amp circuit. Good to go there.

I think 3500 watts on a 10 gallon boil is going to be a LOT of heat. You may be turning it on and off a lot since you're either 100% on, or off.

GFCI protection is generally considered required on this forum. And for damn good reason.
Just remember, if you become part of that circuit, you're gonna get one hell of a kick.

I would seriously consider replacing the 30 amp breaker in your main panel with a GFCI - Which, properly installed, will protect a 3-wire 240 volt circuit. GFCI's are capable of detecting voltage leaking from hot to ground just as well as hot to neutral. Hang on to your ass if you touch both hots! (though you'll have that problem on ANY 3 or 4 wire GFCI...)
 
Thanks SweetSounds, do you recommend hirin an electrician to replace the breaker? Looks like GFCI breakers are not cheap!
 
Thanks SweetSounds, do you recommend hirin an electrician to replace the breaker? Looks like GFCI breakers are not cheap!

No, but neither is an ambulance ride with complimentary external defibrillator...

If you're not comfortable inside a 200 amp 240 volt panel, hire an electrician. It's not hard, and takes about 3 minutes. If you do it yourself, turn off the main and don't touch the shiny parts ;)
 
To answer the OP question:

Yes. That will work just fine.

There's a lot of things you need to do to make it work better, and a lot safer - But it'll work.

Breakers work fine for switching power on and off. It's not ideal, but how many commercial buildings turn their lights on and off with breakers?

A 3500 watt element will draw less than 15 amps on the 30 amp circuit. Good to go there.

I think 3500 watts on a 10 gallon boil is going to be a LOT of heat. You may be turning it on and off a lot since you're either 100% on, or off.

GFCI protection is generally considered required on this forum. And for damn good reason.
Just remember, if you become part of that circuit, you're gonna get one hell of a kick.

I would seriously consider replacing the 30 amp breaker in your main panel with a GFCI - Which, properly installed, will protect a 3-wire 240 volt circuit. GFCI's are capable of detecting voltage leaking from hot to ground just as well as hot to neutral. Hang on to your ass if you touch both hots! (though you'll have that problem on ANY 3 or 4 wire GFCI...)


Just to be clear, I did expect that the OP would use some sort of switch or contactor after the GFCI breaker to switch on/off his element. You don't want to use the GFCI breaker for that purpose.

As for replacing the breaker in his panel with a GFCI breaker, I'm assuming that this is probably a dryer outlet he's plugging into and a GFCI breaker may possibly trip when/if he plugs his dryer back in. If he's not using the outlet for any other purpose than his heating element, then I agree that putting a GFCI breaker in the panel is the best solution (though it may be more expensive than the spa disconnect box).
 
I think 3500 watts on a 10 gallon boil is going to be a LOT of heat. You may be turning it on and off a lot since you're either 100% on, or off.

I run a 5500W element at about 60-70%. I think a 3500w at 100% would be about perfect for a 10 gallon boil.
 
Just to be clear, I did expect that the OP would use some sort of switch or contactor after the GFCI breaker to switch on/off his element. You don't want to use the GFCI breaker for that purpose.

As for replacing the breaker in his panel with a GFCI breaker, I'm assuming that this is probably a dryer outlet he's plugging into and a GFCI breaker may possibly trip when/if he plugs his dryer back in. If he's not using the outlet for any other purpose than his heating element, then I agree that putting a GFCI breaker in the panel is the best solution (though it may be more expensive than the spa disconnect box).

A dryer should never trip a GFCI by a ground leak. If it does, there's something wrong with the dryer, not the GFCI.

It's not ideal to switch an element with the breaker, but in industrial lighting and a great many other tasks, the breaker is commonly used as a disconnect.

That doesn't make it a good idea, however.
I would hope that OP would install a GFCI breaker in the panel, and when $$ allows move to a PWM solution - As it can be built for about $50.00 and give 0-100% control of the element.
 
A dryer should never trip a GFCI by a ground leak. If it does, there's something wrong with the dryer, not the GFCI.

It's not ideal to switch an element with the breaker, but in industrial lighting and a great many other tasks, the breaker is commonly used as a disconnect.

That doesn't make it a good idea, however.
I would hope that OP would install a GFCI breaker in the panel, and when $$ allows move to a PWM solution - As it can be built for about $50.00 and give 0-100% control of the element.

I have heard that some older model 2 wire + ground dryers which used 120 volts for low current control circuitry used the ground wire as a "neutral" for this purpose (I think this is no longer allowed). If the OP has one of these dryers, it would certainly trip the GFCI, even if there is nothing wrong with the dryer.

I advise against using the GFCI breaker in the spa disconnect box to cycle power on the element for two reasons:
* Safety - opening the box exposes hot condutors close to where you have to reach to turn on/off the breaker.
* Added wear on an expensive GFCI breaker leading to early failure
 
I have heard that some older model 2 wire + ground dryers which used 120 volts for low current control circuitry used the ground wire as a "neutral" for this purpose (I think this is no longer allowed). If the OP has one of these dryers, it would certainly trip the GFCI, even if there is nothing wrong with the dryer.
True - If it's got 120v devices it'll trip the GFCI.

I advise against using the GFCI breaker in the spa disconnect box to cycle power on the element for two reasons:
* Safety - opening the box exposes hot condutors close to where you have to reach to turn on/off the breaker.
* Added wear on an expensive GFCI breaker leading to early failure

Spa panels are the disconnect for a hot tub. Clearly it's not a great idea to sit there and flip a breaker on and off really fast. But a "Spa disconnect" is just that - A disconnect.
And opening a spa panel to access the breaker is no more dangerous than opening the door on your main panel at home. All the shiny parts are well protected...

We all know that it's a bad idea to use a GFCI this way. It's not particularly dangerous, though IMO, unless you're hands are dripping with wart and you're standing in a pile of water.

Electric rigs are inherently dangerous. It's a lot of power to try to fry yourself with. So are the 20 pound tanks of explosive gas we keep 6 inches under our barbecue grills. Risks can be mitigated with proper procedures, even in the lack of proper equipment.
If someone asked me if they could plumb a gas rig with copper pipe, the answer would be yes. Because they can. Doesn't make it a good idea, however, and I think we've made that abundantly clear to OP...:drunk:
 
SweetSounds, I think that we agree the OP should use some type of GFCI in his circuit (what kind maybe depending on whether his outlet is used for other purposes and if so, what type of load he has on it) and that it is probably not a good idea to use the GFCI breaker to turn his element on and off many times during each brew to control the boil level.

EDIT: Just realized I misplaced (and just now found) the metal cover plate for my spa disconnect panel - the one that covers up all the hot wiring. I never installed it because I have another breaker installed in that box, for reasons that are OT, but anyway you can ignore my comment about safety being a concern while using the spa disconnect breaker as a turn on/off. Guess I need to make another cutout for the second breaker and install that plate.
 
SweetSounds, I think that we agree the OP should use some type of GFCI in his circuit (what kind maybe depending on whether his outlet is used for other purposes and if so, what type of load he has on it) and that it is probably not a good idea to use the GFCI breaker to turn his element on and off many times during each brew to control the boil level.
I will point out that opening the door on the breaker panel at my house does not expose any "hot" metal parts, only the front of the breakers protruding through cutouts in a grounded metal plate, whereas the spa disconnect panels I'm talking about do have "hot" conductors exposed. These conductors are somewhat shielded by barriers but can still be easily touched by someone who is not aware of the danger or is a little careless (one of these is right next to the breaker handle and about 2 inches below it), hence my comment regarding safety, directed mainly at those who may not be experienced at working around high voltage circuits.

I've never seen one like that...

Definitely - Don't touch the shiny parts!
 
Thanks a lot for the advice. The receptacle is used for a dryer when I would not be using it for a kettle.
 
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