Vacuum Sealing 12# of Hops, Individually - How Many Rolls?

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thadius856

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Have 12# of hops arriving tomorrow. Yeah, I went a little overboard. I need to package them all, but I'm running into a problem: I can't find a FoodSaver I like for a price I like. Sure, there's plenty of stock at retail prices, but I've seen some pretty slick deals and would prefer to wait for a sale before buying one of my own.

To that end, I'm going to borrow a friend's for a few days and put some wear on it. I think I'll have to break down and do it by the ounce. I don't see any other viable way to store the hops so that I can use them in all of the recipes I have, plus be able to trade them later on. That is, without having a FoodSaver of my own to re-seal larger packs later.

eBay has 6", 8" and 11" wide rolls, 50' long each. Which size width should I pick, and about how many rolls will I need to pack 11# of pellet and 1# of whole leaf hops 1 oz at a time?
 
For 1 ounce of pellet hops, regardless of the width of the roll, you would need a section of bag about 1.75" - 2"
Biohazard has the right idea, I think you should seal them up in variable weights.
 
Pellet or leaf? One pound of pellet hops fits in a quart mason jar. With the mason jar attachment you can open the jar, use what you need and reseal the jar and put back in the freezer. Saves $ on bag material and waste
 
Foodsaver bags are not Oxygen barrier and it'd the oxidation of the hops that kills them

food bags protect the food from freezer burn, oxidation not much of an issue.

the bags the hop purveyors use are metallic barrier bags.

They seem to be the same as the anti-stat bags chip/pc component manufacturers use.

most purge with nitrogen, but they can be vacuum sealed:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/vacuum-sealing-oxygen-barrier-bags-303070/

I got some bags from austin, but at most they'd only hold a couple oz.s of pellets.

Hope you find any of this info useful,
RJ
 
Pellet or leaf? One pound of pellet hops fits in a quart mason jar. With the mason jar attachment you can open the jar, use what you need and reseal the jar and put back in the freezer. Saves $ on bag material and waste

That's exactly what I have done for over a year. 2011 hops are still super fresh.
 
Foodsaver bags are not Oxygen barrier and it'd the oxidation of the hops that kills them

food bags protect the food from freezer burn, oxidation not much of an issue.

the bags the hop purveyors use are metallic barrier bags.

They seem to be the same as the anti-stat bags chip/pc component manufacturers use.

most purge with nitrogen, but they can be vacuum sealed:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/vacuum-sealing-oxygen-barrier-bags-303070/

I got some bags from austin, but at most they'd only hold a couple oz.s of pellets.

Hope you find any of this info useful,
RJ

If you don't purge with nitrogen, then I don't see what could make them any better. You're still leaving O2 in there, even if you're blocking some from coming in.
 
Don't get a FoodSaver. Get a Rival vacuum sealer and save yourself 50% or more. It performs the same function and even takes the FoodSaver attachments. I have been using the same one for 4+ years now.


If the vacuum bags are oxygen permeable, why don't they inflate over time?
 
Pellet or leaf? One pound of pellet hops fits in a quart mason jar. With the mason jar attachment you can open the jar, use what you need and reseal the jar and put back in the freezer. Saves $ on bag material and waste

That's exactly what I have done for over a year. 2011 hops are still super fresh.

Mason jars are attractive for their ease of use, but the point of individual packs is that I don't have a vacuum sealing machine of my own yet. I wouldn't be buying one until I see a good sale (could be months), so I wouldn't be able to re-seal the jars until then.

Also, I don't have the freezer space for mason jars of hops. We sold our upright freezer to make space for the fermentation chamber. :eek: I can get away with individual bags in the freezer because I can toss them on top of the wife's frozen stuff and in the crevices between. It was rather had to get the space for 12 quart mason jars (for premade starters) and 15 preforms (for yeast bank) as it is. She won't let me have much more space.

Last, when I bought the Kerr mason jars for the starters, they were freezable only in the 4 oz, 8 oz, and wide-mouth pint (not narrow-mouth pint) sizes. The box said that all of the quart and half-gallon jars were not freezer safe, so I took them all back.
 
Don't get a FoodSaver. Get a Rival vacuum sealer and save yourself 50% or more. It performs the same function and even takes the FoodSaver attachments. I have been using the same one for 4+ years now.


If the vacuum bags are oxygen permeable, why don't they inflate over time?

No idea. I see this argument is rampant on survivalist/prepping sites. These guys are upset because FoodSaver bags can't keep rice white for 15 years. I guess I just don't understand why that's a big deal. Plus, I'm only wanting to store hops log enough that I can buy them by the pound to save on cash, not by the 11# bag per variety or something.
 
If you don't purge with nitrogen, then I don't see what could make them any better. You're still leaving O2 in there, even if you're blocking some from coming in.

see link to Vacuum seal

If the vacuum bags are oxygen permeable, why don't they inflate over time?

I very well could be wrong, as I'm not an expert but -
Oxygen molecules are pretty small and there seems to be general consensus both on this forum and elsewhere that plastic buckets are somewhat permeable.
Oh, so that's why the airlock bubbles!

Nevermind vac bags are Oxygen barriers!
 
see link to Vacuum seal

Wut?

I very well could be wrong, as I'm not an expert but -
Oxygen molecules are pretty small and there seems to be general consensus both on this forum and elsewhere that plastic buckets are somewhat permeable.
Oh, so that's why the airlock bubbles!

Nevermind vac bags are Oxygen barriers!

Airlock bubbles occur because yeast breaks down sugar, releasing CO2 as a byproduct.

I don't understand this post.
 
In the other vacuum seal thread, the idea is that you take little pieces of regular foodsaver bags (the part with the air channels) and insert them into the mylar bags. Then you can seal the mylar bags using your regular foodsaver, which vacuums out the air, and then seals the bag just as if it were a foodsaver bag.
 
In the other vacuum seal thread, the idea is that you take little pieces of regular foodsaver bags (the part with the air channels) and insert them into the mylar bags. Then you can seal the mylar bags using your regular foodsaver, which vacuums out the air, and then seals the bag just as if it were a foodsaver bag.

Yeah, I saw that one.

These survivalist forums are saying that FoodSaver bags are only good for short term storage, which many there seem to define as "less than 5 years" and advocate mylar bag because they last "at least 10 years".

Is this really a timeframe we're worried about? I can't find anybody who has done side-by-side comparisons with alpha level measurements.
 
Ok, after researching a bit, I've found that O2 permeability is not nearly as big of a deal as it has been made out to be with Food Saver bags.

Go ahead and Google it. Now remove every firearms, survivalist and prepping forum from the search results. These people get very emotional about their packaging. Here's what's left: Food Packaging Permeability Behavior: A Report.

FoodSaver brand bags are 4mm thick PET according to their FAQs. Section 3 gives us the permeability of PET film as 3.6 cc/m^2 for O2. N2 and CO2 can be ignored, as we don't care about them.

I ran the numbers through the formula given in Section 2. Not positive I got my numbers right, but it looks like one O2 absorber packet can easily sustain 4 oz of hops for 1 year (I assumed a 3"x3" package).
 
Here's an old article from Brewing Techniques about hops storage and oxygen barrier, etc.

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue2.1/garetz.html


There is some additional data in Designing Great Beers about hops degrading over time at various storage temperatures with particular varieties. Pages 88-90.

If you do the "look inside this book" thing on Amazon, then click on the little link on the left that says "sign in to view more pages" you should be able to read where I'm talking about.
 
Thanks for getting me into the science and economics of hop storage, guys. :p I really enjoy this stuff. Why? No idea.

Found the Hop Age Tool in BeerSmith 2. It has the Hop Storage Index filled in that says how well each hop retains its alpha acids.

Varieties I bought:

Willamette - 40% loss per 6 months
Crystal - 50% loss per 6 months
Fuggles - 35% loss per 6 months
Centennial - 40 loss per 6 months
Cascade - 50% loss per 6 months
Chinook - 42% loss per 6 months
Mt Hood - 40% loss per 6 months
Tettnang - 40% loss per 6 months
Columbus (CTZ) - 40% loss per 6 months
Hallertau - 50% loss per 6 months
East Kent Goldings - 35% loss per 6 months

So I'll use 35% (Fuggles) as the low side, 40% (Willamette) as the average, and 50% (Crystal) as the high side.

At room temperature (70F), in a ziplock or FoodSaver bag, for 12 months:
Fuggles - 59.5% alpha loss (1.82%) - $7.59 loss @ $12.75/lb
Willamette - 65.8% alpha loss (1.88%) - $7.73 loss @ $11.75/lb
Crystal - 76.8% alpha loss (0.81%) - $11.34 loss @ $14.75/lb

At room temperature (70F), in a mylar bag or mason jar, for 12 months:
Fuggles - 49.3% alpha loss (2.28%) - $6.29 loss @ $12.75/lb
Willamette - 55.5% alpha loss (2.46%) - $6.49 loss @ $11.75/lb
Crystal - 66.6% alpha loss (1.17%) - $9.82 loss @ $14.75/lb

At freezer temperature (0F), in a ziplock or FoodSaver bag, for 12 months:
Fuggles - 14.0% alpha loss (3.87) - $1.79 loss @ $12.75/lb
Willamette - 16.4% alpha loss (4.60) - $1.92 loss @ $11.75/lb
Crystal - 21.4% alpha loss (2.75%) - $3.16 loss @ $14.75/lb

At freezer temperature (0F), in a mylar or mason jar, for 12 months:
Fuggles - 10.7$ alpha loss (4.02%) - $1.36 loss @ $12.75/lb
Willamette - 12.5% alpha loss (4.81%) - $1.47 loss @ $11.75/lb
Crystal - 16.6% alpha loss (2.92%) - $2.44 loss @ $14.75/lb


Looking at these numbers, it becomes apparent that temperature has a much larger role than the oxygen permeated through a PET bag. In a freezer, even with the biggest loser (Crystal), you only save 72 cents per pound over the course of a year by spending extra on the mylar bags. That might not even be enough to offset the extra cost of the bags themselves.

Mason jars would be the way to go if you plan to use them repeatedly, but the payback period is in the range of 5-10 years. I'd go this route if I had more freezer space.

Looks like I'll stick to FoodSaver bags, and toss in a cheap O2 absorber packet in for good measure, just in case. 100cc are 9c each shipped and 300cc are 13c each shipped on Amazon. I think a 300cc would probably work for a whole pound if it was vacuumed.
 
Here's an old article from Brewing Techniques about hops storage and oxygen barrier, etc.

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue2.1/garetz.html


There is some additional data in Designing Great Beers about hops degrading over time at various storage temperatures with particular varieties. Pages 88-90.

If you do the "look inside this book" thing on Amazon, then click on the little link on the left that says "sign in to view more pages" you should be able to read where I'm talking about.

"Pages 31-350 are not included in this book preview."
 
Foodsaver bags are not Oxygen barrier[...]

Really? So, how could a vacuum sealer actually work if the bags were oxygen permeable, hmmm?

Last September I vac sealed and froze my entire 2012 hop harvest (many pounds) and none of the bags has exhibited anything other than that "vac sealed" appearance.

Meaning, no air has permeated the bags...

Cheers!
 
I buy hops by the pound and reseal with my foodsaver.

I use the 8" rolls only. A pound of pellets will fit into about 8" of that roll. Using a Sharpie, I write the type of hop and the AA on the bottom flap of the vac bag.

When I use some, I cut the top off the vac bag, and then reseal.

So, since a roll is 20' long, you can easily vac more than 20# with a single roll.
 
Really? So, how could a vacuum sealer actually work if the bags were oxygen permeable, hmmm?

Last September I vac sealed and froze my entire 2012 hop harvest (many pounds) and none of the bags has exhibited anything other than that "vac sealed" appearance.

Meaning, no air has permeated the bags...

Cheers!

There seems to be some truth to this from that research paper I was reading.

It's a pretty small amount. For storage one year or less, it's pretty much not worth considering. Throw in one of those O2 packets if you're concerned. I linked them last post.

If you want to store rice for 15 years, the FoodSaver bags aren't what you want. If you want to store hops until the next harvest, they're just fine.
 
I buy hops by the pound and reseal with my foodsaver.

I use the 8" rolls only. A pound of pellets will fit into about 8" of that roll. Using a Sharpie, I write the type of hop and the AA on the bottom flap of the vac bag.

When I use some, I cut the top off the vac bag, and then reseal.

So, since a roll is 20' long, you can easily vac more than 20# with a single roll.

Again, I'm borrowing a sealer from a friend, so I need to be able to make individual packets. Perhaps I'll make some 1 oz, some 2 oz, some 3 oz... etc.

Can you estimate how much of a 8" roll it would take to seal in a pound of pellets in, say, 2 oz packets?
 
Right...if you click on the little thing on the left which says "sign in to view these pages" it works. At least, it did for me. Although maybe that's an Amazon Prime feature or something.

Did work for me. Was already signed in, then click those sign in links twice, then they went away. Been a prime member since a month after the program came into existence, so I don't think it's that.
 
Again, I'm borrowing a sealer from a friend, so I need to be able to make individual packets. Perhaps I'll make some 1 oz, some 2 oz, some 3 oz... etc.

Can you estimate how much of a 8" roll it would take to seal in a pound of pellets in, say, 2 oz packets?

For 1# of hops, in 2 oz. increments, I'd say 3'. That's about 4" per packet, which would be plenty.
 
Costco just had a $25 instant rebate on their 2400 series food saver for a total cost of about $50. This was about a week ago. Comes with an 8" roll and several pouches. I grabbed one because my 10+ year old model has changed its sound lately and I foresee an unexpected death in the near future.

Edit: I split up 12 pounds of leaf hops and 3 pounds of pellets a couple weeks ago and it took about 1.75 rolls of the 8". These were just split in half.

Packaging 1 oz at a time is a waste of the bags because you'll lose a half inch on the bottom and almost 2 inches on the top. The amount of bag used to hold the hops will be about an inch.
 
If you go the vacuseal route you can save some bags by sealing down the bag lengthwise a two times then seal the bottom. This will give you three bags and take up less space. My large bag roll is about 8" wide so each bag would be around 2.5" wide. That should work for an oz of pellets. If you need them wider, just do one seal lengthwise and get two 4" bags per.

Just a thought. I love my vacusealer. I go one offshore fishing trips and use them to package my fish. Keeps them sushi grade for 6-9 months. Seems like everything's great stored in these things. 15 years in a vacuseal bag? One question? Why even worry. If your a home brewer you will use them. I buy larger quantities of everything and try to create unique beers out of what's left over from my recipes. Made some great beers like that and gets you to think more about you ingredients. Buy everything in bulk!
 
Costco just had a $25 instant rebate on their 2400 series food saver for a total cost of about $50. This was about a week ago. Comes with an 8" roll and several pouches. I grabbed one because my 10+ year old model has changed its sound lately and I foresee an unexpected death in the near future.

That looks like a pretty decent deal. I don't have a membership though. :(
 
If you go the vacuseal route you can save some bags by sealing down the bag lengthwise a two times then seal the bottom. This will give you three bags and take up less space. My large bag roll is about 8" wide so each bag would be around 2.5" wide. That should work for an oz of pellets. If you need them wider, just do one seal lengthwise and get two 4" bags per.

Just a thought. I love my vacusealer. I go one offshore fishing trips and use them to package my fish. Keeps them sushi grade for 6-9 months. Seems like everything's great stored in these things. 15 years in a vacuseal bag? One question? Why even worry. If your a home brewer you will use them. I buy larger quantities of everything and try to create unique beers out of what's left over from my recipes. Made some great beers like that and gets you to think more about you ingredients. Buy everything in bulk!

Yeah, the 15 year thing is a bit extreme. But, then again, so are the people who are going for it. It's not hard to find these people on survivalist forums. Many of them legitimately think that society is going to come apart and it's going to be every man for himself. These guys have manual mills, half a ton of stored grain, manual well pumps, cases of water purification tablets, etc.
 
I know some myself. To be honest, I have a small stash as well just to make sure that my family and I are safe for awhile when/if things do go south. But for this discussion and barring any survival brewing situation (other than being out of beer), you will be fine just using the vacuseal. If things do go south, freezer and refrigerators wont work and the heat will start to ruin them faster than the bags allowing any oxygen in.
 
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