Heady Topper

I just saw this beer at the store. http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/29619/87986

An India Pale Lager.

It's not cool to be ripping on TapeDeck. What he posted is plausible. Accurate or not, we don't know. But I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt that from his perspective at least, it's a true description of events.

Much wilder things have been proposed. Go your own way. If what you're doing works, run with it. No reason to get down on one guy because he threw some thoughts into the ring.

:smack:


Vegan, I'm going to get to taste another attempt that uses Nugget in lieu of the amarillo, but very similar to mine. I'm interested in the differences, I though a lot about trying nugget, but I think simcoe and to some extent columbus will cover the dank part of it. I wanted more citrus and fruit, though the more I smell this starter, the more I think the yeast has that more than covered.

Nobody was "ripping" on Tapedeck. I've seen people get ripped on and this wasn't it in my opinion. Though this is certainly discussing something of much less magnitude, say there was a discussion on Global Warming, and I popped in to say that my friend who is a climatologist just finished a study and concluded that there is no way to reverse climate change, and then just ditches out. It's easy to see how inquisitive responses can turn negative under those circumstances. Like I said, this is beer not our children's prospects for the future, but I feel that it still holds that you can't "drop something off" like a turd in a punch bowl that is nearly unheard of that also may really rain on some folks parades and then not provide follow through.

Jack's Abbey from Framingham who recently won bronze at the GABF for their Smoke and Dagger, only makes lagers, and they make a great IPL....People do want IPL's....wait for it...I'll call it now....it's the next trend

bottlebomber said:

Nobody was "ripping" on Tapedeck. I've seen people get ripped on and this wasn't it in my opinion.

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Remember WeizenWerks? (ducks out of the room)

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Remember WeizenWerks? (ducks out of the room)

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This has gone MUCH better than that

j1laskey said:

Jack's Abbey from Framingham who recently won bronze at the GABF for their Smoke and Dagger, only makes lagers, and they make a great IPL....People do want IPL's....wait for it...I'll call it now....it's the next trend

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I can see it.. Going from very little esters, to none at all. I'm ready

bottlebomber said:

This has gone MUCH better than that

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Understatement of the millennium there buddy.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Understatement of the millennium there buddy.

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But then, Tapedeck hasn't yet told us we are the good for nothing sons of bitches of blue collared coal miners

I didn't read any of that.

Moving on... I had the Lawson's Finest Liquids Kiwi IPA which uses Pacific Jade and Nelson... I'm thinking there could be some Nelson as the aroma and initial flavor of Kiwi was remarkably similar in the fruit department (not the pine). Nelson was created in 2000. Does anyone else have any Nelson experience?

I'm really going to have to get my hands on some more Heady. I've only had one can, and all I remember was that it was wonderful. I would love to throw in on making a batch. I think I currently have every hop ever.

bottlebomber said:

I'm really going to have to get my hands on some more Heady. I've only had one can, and all I remember was that it was wonderful. I would love to throw in on making a batch. I think I currently have every hop ever.

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Feel like taking a vacation in an icebox? DangerRoss and I should have some yeast sometime next week. We've got Hop Shots too. Bring some Russian River offerings and you're in!!

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Feel like taking a vacation in an icebox? DangerRoss and I should have some yeast sometime next week. We've got Hop Shots too. Bring some Russian River offerings and you're in!!

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Dude I wish.. Even though you guys talk like the Irish it would still be a hell of a time. Minnesouuta.

bottlebomber said:

Dude I wish.. Even though you guys talk like the Irish it would still be a hell of a time. Minnesouuta.

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Nice. Some of us are Irish, you should hear the accents in my old neighborhood growing up in Chicago. When you get outside of the cities, you'll here folks with Scandinavian or German accents who's families have been here for generations. But yeah, MN in the winter's a blast, ice fishing, snow boarding, freezing your balls off, it's all fun.

I doubt those hops are in it, that is a very tame beer compared to heady, hop wise. If anyone is in vermont, try Edward by Hillfarmstead, it tastes exactly like a regular ipa version of heady topper. Fantastic.

Clearly John Kimmich has created an account with the intent to incite so much butthurt in this thread that we all lose sight of the goal. Mission accomplished?

Well played, John, well played.

So is there a working recipe, and is there a variation you guys want me to try? I am going to run a 2.5 gallon test batch this weekend.

I know you guys have mentioned Pearl but I have a sack each of 2row, Marris Otter and Pilsner so im not buying anymore base. I figure I'll use MO with a little bit of 2row if the color is off and for some breadiness.

Anyone been looking at using Gacier or Galena for this clone?

I didn't pick up any Nelson at all in HT. Its such a dominant flavor even a little is easy to notice imo

When not using hop extract, it seems to make more sense for me to hop burst a clone of this beer or maybe thats just my impression. The bitterness and overall hop character (obviously not like a HT but the aromatics and flavors were more pungent then most of my hoppy beers) reminds me of a couple SMASH beers I did that were hop bursted with the first addition at 20 mins, one was Simcoe and one was Citra.

I am thinking of giving that a go and being a little heavier on the Simcoe and Centennial than the other 4 hops at each addition. So a blend of Columbus, Simcoe, Centennial, Nugget, Amarillo, and Warrior at 20, 10, 5 and a heavy aroma steep of the same blend probably twice as much as the other additions.

Between the HBT and BA threads I’ve summed up all the pertinent information regarding a Heady Topper clone. Keep in mind much of this information is heresay, but I tried to credit the member and link to the page which contains the claim. If I am missing something please let me know, as I think this post has been veered off topic a bit lately.

Anything italicized is linked directly to John Kimmich, his workers, or The Alchemist Brewery in general.

Beer Specs:
Style: American Double India Pale Ale (The Alchemist Brewery website)
OG: ~1.070 (bobbrews and skivtjerry)
FG: ~1.010 (bobbrews and skivtjerry)
ABV: 8% (The Alchemist Brewery website)
IBU: 120 (The Alchemist Brewery website), 80-90 Rager (bobbrews), 75-80 lab tested (theveganbrewer)
SRM: 4-7 (theveganbrewer, koopa, and Airborneguy)

Malt:
Base: Thomas Fawcett Pearl (bobbrews and nathanjohnson)
Specialty: NO Crystal (theveganbrewer, mmonacel, and sweetcell)
Adjunct: ~5% or less sugar (orthellomcbane and skivtjerry)
*Other possibilities may include: Wheat, Munich, Carapils*

If similar malt bill to El Jefe, could contain Pearl, Caramalt, Carafa Special III (ChrisNH)

Hops:
6 varieties used (theveganbrewer, bobbrews, and Petekiteworld)
Known: Simcoe (bobbrews)
Likely: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Cascade, Amarillo, Summit, Nugget
Possible: Riwaka, Moteuka, Ahtanum, Galaxy, Zythos, Apollo
Not used: Citra (bobbrews and theveganbrewer)

Yeast:
Conan Yeast (private strain) (MSNBC article and theveganbrewer)
Yeast culturing: here and here
*Most of aroma comes from yeast (theveganbrewer)*
*Could be ale yeast (theveganbrewer), lager yeast (TapeDeck), belgian yeast (Signpost Brewing and the Mad Fermentationist, or blend (terrapinj)*

Process:
Mash Temperature: < 150F (bobbrews and orthellomcbane) probably a step mash (bobbrews)
Boil: NO FWH (theveganbrewer)
CO2 hop extract for bittering (theveganbrewer, BeerCrafter2011, and mmonacel)
All "actual" hops added at 5 minutes or less (theveganbrewer)
Post-boil: Big whirlpool (theveganbrewer)
Fermentation temperature: 58F at brewery (Skelator), 68F on sign (theveganbrewer), 60-64F from experience (Knecht_Rupprecht, SkinnyPete, NordeastBrewer77, and orthellomcbane)
Yeast Attenuation: ~82% (bobbrews, orthellomcbane, Skelator)
Dry-hopping: Double or triple dry-hopped for only several days each (mmonacel)
Hopback: Used prior to packaging (Petekiteworld)
*It is not can-conditioned (LaFinDuMonde)*

Entire length from kettle to can: 2-3 weeks (theveganbrewer)

Similar Beers (to help with recipe formulation?): Lagunitas Hop Stoopid, Ithica Flower Power, Surley Abrasive, Kern River Citra DIPA

Well that's strong work.

ummmm, that's impressive.

Ok now we are getting somewhere! Nice job sir.

Thanks guys. Just wanted to contribute in some way (albeit very small) to a great thread about cloning an even greater beer. I thought bringing everyone back up to speed on what we know vs what we are speculating will help push our "research" along a bit more quickly.

The things we still don't know are 5 of the 6 hop varieties (although I think we are close), the exact IBU level (although I think 85-90 is close), SRM (but we can ballpark this), and the full malt bill (though I think Pearl and sugar might be all there and the malt profile isn't the star here anyway).

I think the next step is documented attempts of cloning this beer with only one or two variables changed from recipe to recipe.

Coff said:

So is there a working recipe, and is there a variation you guys want me to try? I am going to run a 2.5 gallon test batch this weekend.

I know you guys have mentioned Pearl but I have a sack each of 2row, Marris Otter and Pilsner so im not buying anymore base. I figure I'll use MO with a little bit of 2row if the color is off and for some breadiness.

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Not sure if anyone of us has finished the brew yet, I'm about 3 days from tasting my first sample. I think we'll have a round of good feedback and fine tuning and more intel on the hops after we all get our first batches done.

I think we're somewhere around 1.070-1.072 depending on if you can get Conan or not. FG is 1.010, ABV 8%, IBU 120 calculated (75-80 measured in lab). SRM 5.5-6, I go 5.7.

Here's what mine ended up like-

85% Base Malt
7-8% of something like Munich, Vienna, Caravienne, Caramalt
3% of Cara-pils
3% of Dextrose

Hops-

50-60IBUs from bittering addition, preferably hopshot

5 Minute additions of some combo of Simcoe, Centennial, Columbus, Chinook, Cascade, and (Amarillo or Nugget)

30 minute whirlpool with some combo of the hops above

I initially thought this might the 3 week timeframe for the brew was because of the dryhopping, but after working with Conan, I could see where the actual fermentation might take longer than normal and causing the extra time, not necessarily a 2nd dry hop.

Wow, post of the thread right there from kaz4121.

theveganbrewer said:

Not sure if anyone of us has finished the brew yet, I'm about 3 days from tasting my first sample. I think we'll have a round of good feedback and fine tuning and more intel on the hops after we all get our first batches done.

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Cool, thanks. Thats basically what I had gathered up to this point but I wanted to see it all in one place. I have a feeling others did as well. I have a good Conan culture going and should have the beer in the fermenter Sunday night.

theveganbrewer said:

I initially thought this might the 3 week timeframe for the brew was because of the dryhopping, but after working with Conan, I could see where the actual fermentation might take longer than normal and causing the extra time, not necessarily a 2nd dry hop.

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A recent blog post up on The Alchemist web site says this:

"As of right now, we hope to bump up capacity in early January, and that would give us more beer in cans 28 days later."

Can we make the assumption that it is a 28 day start to finish process?

Try Belma Hops
I got them from Hopsdirect.com
Here's a link to an interesting article
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2012/12/recipe-and-tasting-notes-belma-single.html

That hop was just released no? HT has been around long before Belma has.

Belma is too berry to be in HT, it's new too. After seeing all the signage around the cannery and brewery about HT, I believe we are essentially down to choosing between Amarillo and Nugget on this one with the rest of the hops we've listed being in the beer. There is clear reference to there only being American hops in this beer too.

Also, on the 28 days comment, I think that was more like when they plan to have beer ready to go, 28 days from now there will be cans from the new batch, and that is assuming they start January, which would be 14-21 days for a batch. That time period is also on their signage.

LaFinDuMonde said:

A recent blog post up on The Alchemist web site says this:

"As of right now, we hope to bump up capacity in early January, and that would give us more beer in cans 28 days later."

Can we make the assumption that it is a 28 day start to finish process?

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I would have to say yes.

I was thinking about that 28 days incorrectly, they do cold condition at 40 degrees for 2-3 weeks. It would make sense given Conan's floc rate that the fermentation process might take 10-14 days.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/orbspiders/7494736558/in/photostream/lightbox/

Another interesting one which I didn't notice before.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/orbspiders/7494737906/sizes/h/in/photostream/

"Proprietary blend of six hops". That is technical jargon for hop extract, right? Not something like Falconer's Flight or Zythos?

theveganbrewer said:

I was thinking about that 28 days incorrectly, they do cold condition at 40 degrees for 2-3 weeks. It would make sense given Conan's floc rate that the fermentation process might take 10-14 days.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/orbspiders/7494736558/in/photostream/lightbox/

Another interesting one which I didn't notice before.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/orbspiders/7494737906/sizes/h/in/photostream/

"Proprietary blend of six hops". That is technical jargon for hop extract, right? Not something like Falconer's Flight or Zythos?

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The Proprietary blend could just be referring to the types and amount that they have combined. I'm not sure they have a secret hop, but more the ratio of the hops that only they know.

whitehause said:

The Proprietary blend could just be referring to the types and amount that they have combined. I'm not sure they have a secret hop, but more the ratio of the hops that only they know.

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And that's the real stumbler isn't it. If you have 6 hops going on, the blend could be damn hard to nail down.

The proprietary blend line was troubling.

Zythos, Falconer's Flight, 7Cs are just examples of proprietary blends that came up in Google.

He wouldn't have blended his own set of hops together, would he, like 6 hops into one pellet? I'm wondering if he's just adding the same blend each time, or if he alters the blend.

theveganbrewer said:

The proprietary blend line was troubling.

Zythos, Falconer's Flight, 7Cs are just examples of proprietary blends that came up in Google.

He wouldn't have blended his own set of hops together, would he, like 6 hops into one pellet? I'm wondering if he's just adding the same blend each time, or if he alters the blend.

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I wasn't thinking it was in the same pellet, just that each addition was a mix of so many Oz or grams of this and that, and figuring out what they are and how much is going to be the trick.

I think that line is more for marketing than anything else. Anyone could have a proprietary blend of hops.

I also doubt it is blended into a single pellet as well. To have something unique like that would cost a lot of $$$. It seems more practical that he orders the 6 hops separately and blends them in the brew house. It would be interesting to know if he blends them before his employees add them to the kettle, or if his employees are the ones doing the blending. Might be why they are so tight lipped at the brewery - no one may actually know what is in there.

Like bottle bomber said, the real challenge is figuring out the ratios. Even if we could correctly guess every hop in the recipe, it is the ratio of hops that might be close to impossible to nail down.