To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
mikeysab said:
One thing I noticed about this whole thread is that the secondary users seem to be the only ones mentioning clearing agents. It seems they rack to secondary then use gelatin to clear their beers. Does that mean that the "primary only" crowd isn't using any clearing agents, like IM, or whirfloc? Do their beers just clear on their own with the extended time in primary? From what I've read on the threads about clearing agents, IM, or whirfloc does it's magic in primary, and clears the beer very well.

I've never used any clearing agents, and I've had clear beers. On the other hand, I've had hazy beers as well. I have always primaried for a month, but I've only been brewing for 13 months. On my next brew, I'm planning on using whirfloc to get my American Amber to clear up nice.
Click to expand...

When I don't do a secondary and I'm not washing the yeast, I add gelatin to the primary bucket a few days before racking. If I do plan to wash the yeast, I add gelatin as I rack to the serving keg.
 
mikeysab said:
One thing I noticed about this whole thread is that the secondary users seem to be the only ones mentioning clearing agents. It seems they rack to secondary then use gelatin to clear their beers. Does that mean that the "primary only" crowd isn't using any clearing agents, like IM, or whirfloc? Do their beers just clear on their own with the extended time in primary? From what I've read on the threads about clearing agents, IM, or whirfloc does it's magic in primary, and clears the beer very well.

I've never used any clearing agents, and I've had clear beers. On the other hand, I've had hazy beers as well. I have always primaried for a month, but I've only been brewing for 13 months. On my next brew, I'm planning on using whirfloc to get my American Amber to clear up nice.
Click to expand...
90+% of the time I use only Whirlfloc/Irish Moss in the kettle. I think most people do and when I hear of finings/clearing agents I usually think of gelatin/isinglass/polyclar/etc.

There's a couple of pics of my clearer beers in this thread in post #44 on page 5 and #78 on page 8. Both sat in a keg for a good long time before being bottled so that's kind of like a secondary, but no finings/agents other than Whirlfloc.
 
I know it has been said above that it's necessary to transfer the beer to a secondary for specialty beer additions i.e. pumpkin, oak. etc. but I still have one simple question about using a secondary, would it be necessary to transfer a spiced winter ale to a secondary in order to add some mulling spice or could I just throw it in the primary? I'm assuming that it will be since it's an addition.
Thanks, Mike
 
Although I agree that leaving the beer in the primary for weeks doesn't add anything bad per say, I'm wondering on how much it really help.
I know people say that the yeast will clean after thenselves and all that, but it seems to me that the yeast cake is down there, compacked and not really doing much to improve anything. I would think that the small amount of yeast yet in suspension would the heroes still working in your beer. So that said, racking of the yeast cake or even botlling would do the same thing.
I have always bottled few days after fermentation has finished and always had good beer. Perhaps I would have great beer by leaving on the yeast? I would have to to a batch, split and make a comparison I guess. Had anyone actually done that?
 
I thought the purpose of the article was to say that you don't have rush to rack your fermenting beer to a secondary in order to avoid autolysis, not that there were any benefits other than that. I'm fortunate in that after brewing 40 different recipes I haven't had to do anything other than pitch my yeast, ferment for 21 days and then bottle trub free beer. At the end of the 18th day I allow the temperature of the fermenting beer to rise to 70F over the next 3 days of fermentation. The trub is always tightly compacted in the bottom of the fermenters trub tray and it stays put in the fermenter while bottling.
 
nilo said:
.......................... Perhaps I would have great beer by leaving on the yeast? I would have to to a batch, split and make a comparison I guess. Had anyone actually done that?
Click to expand...

http://***********/component/resource/article/1960-byo-and-basic-brewing-radio-experiment-does-delayed-racking-harm-your-beer

A quote from the experiment :
"In our experiment, the flavor difference between the trial beers was very subtle and no brewer reported that the beer left on the yeast was marred by excessive off flavors. Leaving the beer on the yeast does, however, change the character slightly. Interestingly, participants were split over whether this improved or detracted from the beer. "
 
I've done both, as many have, and I personally have better results with using a Secondary. I typically primary for 2 then rack to Secondary for a week and then bottle. For my bigger beers(Barleywine,anything Imperial) I will Primary for month and Secondary for couple months then bottle. I can't taste any differences, the beer is clearer, & it is much easier to rack from Secondary to my Bottling bucket.

Just do whatever blows your hair back:mug:
 
For those of you who do most of your beers one way or the other, what are the exceptions to your rule. For those of you who only primary, are there any you secondary most of the time? For those who always secondary, are there any you leave in the primary?

The wheat seems to be unanimous on not using a secondary. Seems a lot of people won't secondary the bigger beers until after a month.

I'm on my first batch right now, a hefeweizen and I'm not going to use a secondary, but should it get 4 weeks in the primary? I know the hefeweizens are typically cloudy beers, so how long should it sit? I'm looking for some suggestions as this is my first batch and I have no reference point to compare it to. I'm looking for some guidelines because I'm certainly not experienced enough to give it the "do whatever you want and hope it turns out well" approach yet. I'd like to get a handle of why/how things happen and brew some decent tasting beers before I start playing around too much without having a clue what I'm doing.
 
I don't secondary. Exception is when I want to rinse and reuse the yeast, and I'm either dry hopping or adding something else to the fermenter that I don't want to deal with when I rinse the yeast.
 
Rick500 said:
I don't secondary. Exception is when I want to rinse and reuse the yeast, and I'm either dry hopping or adding something else to the fermenter that I don't want to deal with when I rinse the yeast.
Click to expand...

I've read that a couple times here, about rinsing yeast and I don't have a clue about that and I'm probably not ready to even worry about it. I'm in the KISS phase and plan to stay there until I can get something decent to come out of a bottle or keg.
 
dzlater said:
http://***********/component/resource/article/1960-byo-and-basic-brewing-radio-experiment-does-delayed-racking-harm-your-beer

A quote from the experiment :
"In our experiment, the flavor difference between the trial beers was very subtle and no brewer reported that the beer left on the yeast was marred by excessive off flavors. Leaving the beer on the yeast does, however, change the character slightly. Interestingly, participants were split over whether this improved or detracted from the beer. "
Click to expand...

Interesting conclusions. Based on what I read, only 1 person could tell the two beers apart blind, and that person identified classic autolysis flavors in the beer that stayed on the yeast longer. Anyway, all these BYO BBR "studies" are crap because there are zero controls and they don't require blind tasting. If you just want to publish what a bunch of people believe, you don't have to brew any beer to do that.
 
jtkratzer said:
For those of you who do most of your beers one way or the other, what are the exceptions to your rule. For those of you who only primary, are there any you secondary most of the time? For those who always secondary, are there any you leave in the primary?

The wheat seems to be unanimous on not using a secondary. Seems a lot of people won't secondary the bigger beers until after a month.

I'm on my first batch right now, a hefeweizen and I'm not going to use a secondary, but should it get 4 weeks in the primary? I know the hefeweizens are typically cloudy beers, so how long should it sit? I'm looking for some suggestions as this is my first batch and I have no reference point to compare it to. I'm looking for some guidelines because I'm certainly not experienced enough to give it the "do whatever you want and hope it turns out well" approach yet. I'd like to get a handle of why/how things happen and brew some decent tasting beers before I start playing around too much without having a clue what I'm doing.
Click to expand...
jtkratzer, I regularly ferment my ales for 21 days in the primary and I've never had any issues with too much trub in the bottles, including my wheat beers. The key to this approach is to use the right amount of viable yeast for the job and maintain good sanitization and temperature control.

Click for more...Yeast In Your Beer
 
ScrewyBrewer said:
jtkratzer, I regularly ferment my ales for 21 days in the primary and I've never had any issues with too much trub in the bottles, including my wheat beers. The key to this approach is to use the right amount of viable yeast for the job and maintain good sanitization and temperature control.

Click for more...Yeast In Your Beer
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with this more, plus I cold crash a few days before kegging and friends are asking if I filter my beers.
 
ScrewyBrewer said:
jtkratzer, I regularly ferment my ales for 21 days in the primary and I've never had any issues with too much trub in the bottles, including my wheat beers. The key to this approach is to use the right amount of viable yeast for the job and maintain good sanitization and temperature control.

Click for more...Yeast In Your Beer
Click to expand...

When I put the hefeweizen wort into the fermentation bucket, the guy at the LHBS recommended against straining it, so it's in there with all the hop pellet mush and the rest of the trub. I'm wondering if I should secondary it, even for just a few days to make it easier to avoid getting that stuff into the bottles. I know there's supposed to be a decent amount of yeast and what not in with the beer, but not remnants of the hops.
 
I decided to secondary the hefeweizen since I didn't strain any of the hops out for fermentation. I'm give it a few days and see how everything is settling and then bottle it.

EDIT: still not done fermenting, going to have to wait.
 
Someone just posted this in another thread, it is really the most clearest answer I have seen. Even better than his hem and haw in the initial post in this thread.

John Palmer said:
Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:
John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:
These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.
Click to expand...
 
Ok so now Oxidation/Staling is the main concern. But how REAL is that concern? I've been using a Secondary for the better part of 2 years now and I can say that I have never had the Wet Cardboard or Sherry off flavors that you should supposedly get from Oxidation. When should these flavors present themselves? right away, or after the beer has aged for X amount of time? I'm just really having a hard time seeing using a Secondary as a problem.
 
Thanks Revvy, really clear as you said.
I can tell my experimentation:
I was a secondary fermentation brewer and now I opened the first "first fermenter only" beer I made. It was the first IPA I made too (had many other styles, high and low fermentation, but always waited for this one).
The result: I never had a beer so clear and so good with only 3 weeks of conditioning (I was usually going for at least 6 weeks and the beer was on the top of flavour at 8-12 weeks of conditioning).

So, the tripel I was going to secondary will remain in the primary and I will test the "first fermenter only" procedure again.

Thanks again :)
Piteko
 
Yankeehillbrewer said:
Ok so now Oxidation/Staling is the main concern. But how REAL is that concern? I've been using a Secondary for the better part of 2 years now and I can say that I have never had the Wet Cardboard or Sherry off flavors that you should supposedly get from Oxidation. When should these flavors present themselves? right away, or after the beer has aged for X amount of time? I'm just really having a hard time seeing using a Secondary as a problem.
Click to expand...

Very real. In my beer judging experience, beers primarily don't win because of either sanitation or oxidation issues.

Trans-2-nonenal is one of many things that will show up in oxidized beer. It happens to have an insidious wet paper aroma (get a vial of it sometime) but at low levels you might perceive it differently.

My advice is to intentionally oxidize some beer and taste it. This is easy to do during bottling. Once you get what oxidation tastes like, you will will start to notice it more. This is a blessing and a curse.
 
remilard said:
Very real. In my beer judging experience, beers primarily don't win because of either sanitation or oxidation issues.

Trans-2-nonenal is one of many things that will show up in oxidized beer. It happens to have an insidious wet paper aroma (get a vial of it sometime) but at low levels you might perceive it differently.

My advice is to intentionally oxidize some beer and taste it. This is easy to do during bottling. Once you get what oxidation tastes like, you will will start to notice it more. This is a blessing and a curse.
Click to expand...

I'd like to do this actually. Just shake a bottle up right before capping?
 
This is what I found interesting
hmmm not 3 to 8 weeks?

"With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl."
 
If you're an AHA member, you can read Palmer's latest take on secondary in the Ask the Experts section of the AHA website. In a nutshell, he says the idea is based on outdated, irrelevant info and he recommends people not do a secondary.
 
Denny said:
If you're an AHA member, you can read Palmer's latest take on secondary in the Ask the Experts section of the AHA website. In a nutshell, he says the idea is based on outdated, irrelevant info and he recommends people not do a secondary.
Click to expand...

Well apparently people were nice enough to republish much of it on this website, so there goes the incentive to join the AHA.
 
Well I've brewed 7 more batches, 5 lagers and 2 ales, since my original posting on this thread and I still haven't had to rack to a secondary, I guess I've been lucky so far.
 
remilard said:
My advice is to intentionally oxidize some beer and taste it. This is easy to do during bottling. Once you get what oxidation tastes like, you will will start to notice it more. This is a blessing and a curse.
Click to expand...

Will one of those air stones fit in a bottle? Would be pretty cool to test how much oxidation starts to cause the off flavors and how much before it jumps from carboard to sherry (or other way around).
 
Last winter, I bought more plastic buckets and went to primary-only. The beer is just as good, maybe better (although that is perhaps from better technique on my part, too). Now my carboys sit except for dryhopping, special additiions, or when the recipe for a really big beer calls for it, e.g., my last two beers in the secondary were a MW Bigfoot
Barleywine and there's a Founders Breakfast Stout clone in there now.

This thread on extending the primary does appear to have opened up another familiar issue in the forums, though, which is "Well, the airlock is bubbling....but I have no beer, can I drink it this weekend?" The answer to this is to do a search relevant to establishing a beer pipeline. Once again, "revvy" (and others, too) have chimed in on this subject. It requires the extension of logistical thinking from what's on the shelf / in the keg now, storage, and what's wanted to drink next Spring when the tulips are up, or in the dog days of Summer.

When the homebrewer can achieve a disconnect between what is being brewed today and what is being consumed, then the pipeline problem has been solved and another issue falls away.

Of course, we live in a society where impatience and immediate gratification are taken for granted, as in Homer Simpson's immortal line "Whaddaya mean I have to wait a week to buy a gun, I'm mad now!"
 
If you are impatient and need beer right away don't homebrew and just go to the store and buy some beer. So if I'm vane and want super clear beer will secondary help at all? if not i would rather just invest in more primaries.
 
rico567 said:
Last winter, I bought more plastic buckets and went to primary-only. The beer is just as good, maybe better (although that is perhaps from better technique on my part, too). Now my carboys sit except for dryhopping, special additiions, or when the recipe for a really big beer calls for it, e.g., my last two beers in the secondary were a MW Bigfoot
Barleywine and there's a Founders Breakfast Stout clone in there now.

This thread on extending the primary does appear to have opened up another familiar issue in the forums, though, which is "Well, the airlock is bubbling....but I have no beer, can I drink it this weekend?" The answer to this is to do a search relevant to establishing a beer pipeline. Once again, "revvy" (and others, too) have chimed in on this subject. It requires the extension of logistical thinking from what's on the shelf / in the keg now, storage, and what's wanted to drink next Spring when the tulips are up, or in the dog days of Summer.

When the homebrewer can achieve a disconnect between what is being brewed today and what is being consumed, then the pipeline problem has been solved and another issue falls away.
Click to expand...

I figured out how to solve the problem of impatience - brew again. Brew more often, smaller batches.

With that said, I am rethinking the secondary thing too. I was rewarded with my patience this evening when I cracked open a 22 oz. bottle of the Dead Guy clone I brewed in September. Bottled in early October, put the 22 oz. in the fridge a week ago, opened it tonight, and GOAL!! It was beautifully carbed and conditioned and perfect to drink. I have been traditionally impatient but really - listening to the wisdom of some of the sage homebrewers here - just wait, then wait a little longer. In the meantime, buy something you like to drink (unless of course, you've got a pipeline). :mug:
 
Revvy said:
Someone just posted this in another thread, it is really the most clearest answer I have seen. Even better than his hem and haw in the initial post in this thread.
Click to expand...

Revvy, been meaning to say thank you for posting this for a week, so, thank you.

This is indeed clearer than the conversation I posted in the opening post.
 
I wish I would have read this thread a week ago. I just brewed my first batch this past weekend and the day after I ordered another glass carboy as a secondary. I guess I should use it to brew a second batch now instead. Thanks for a good read.
 
BrewBeer4fun said:
I wish I would have read this thread a week ago. I just brewed my first batch this past weekend and the day after I ordered another glass carboy as a secondary. I guess I should use it to brew a second batch now instead. Thanks for a good read.
Click to expand...

Oh you would have bought a second one eventually. Nothing wasted at all, so get that second one filled :mug:
 

Similar threads

SFC Rudy
Secondary Fermentation Yes, no or maybe?
Replies
10
Views
333
hottpeper13
H
S
S-23 Lager Yeast Educate Me
Replies
24
Views
750
shavy
shavy
N
NEIPA (Pressure) Fermentation schedule
Replies
5
Views
603
ninkwood
N
Jkrags
Light Lager Stuck Fermentation
Replies
11
Views
491
VikeMan
VikeMan
luckybeagle
Conditioning in kegs prior to pressurizing or bottling?
Replies
27
Views
1K
BongoYodeler
BongoYodeler
Williams Brewing 300

Latest posts

Back
Top