Kari Poikolainen's "Perfect Drinking and Its Enemies" Book: What is Moderate Drinking

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55x11

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I am surprised this hasn't been discussed much on HBT yet.

I am reading a book by Kari Poikolainen, "Perfect Drinking and Its Enemies".
Poikolainen is a Finnish medical doctor and academic who has been studying effects of alcohol on health for almost 40 years. He has been working with WHO and other policy organizations for decades and has impeccable academic credentials - he is not some crackpot, or a random pro-alcohol guy with an agenda. He also obviously has impeccable knowledge of proper statistical analysis.

He argues several following key points which may be controversial to some, but are backed up by myriads of studies - both modern but also going back to 1930ies work by Perl (if you have heard about French paradox, perhaps these may not be that controversial):

1. Abstaining from alcohol completely carries a substantial health risk, compared to moderate drinking. This is interesting since about 1/3 of US population doesn't drink at all, and it increases their mortality significantly. Selfish bastards! They might as well smoke pack a day and eat deep fried food all day.

2. Drinking in moderation reduces mortality risks by as much as a factor of 2 or even more (!!!) compared to abstinence crowd.

3. Drinking slowly (sipping, not gulping), drinking with food (slows down adsorption of alcohol in intestines even more), drinking in the evening, drinking lower-ABV drinks - such as beer, as opposed to hard liquor, dramatically increases health benefits.

4. Drinking daily, at moderate level (5-6 days a week) is much BETTER for you than drinking 1-2 or even 3 days a week and abstaining remaining days. Even drinking 7 days a week, is always much better than 1-2 days a week - at any amount per day.

5. Here's the kicker - the "moderate" levels of drinking where you get maximum benefit is NOT at 1 or 2 "unit" drinks a day average, every day. (One unit of drink, 12 oz of 5% ABV beer is about 14g of alcohol). Poikolainen quotes multiple studies that show that for daily drinkers significant benefits extend to 3-4 and even 5-8 drinks a day. To me this is very controversial, but data seems to point that way.

For daily drinkers (7 days a week) optimal health benefit is maximized at ~50g of alcohol intake a day, which is 3-4 beers a day, and benefit decreases until you get "no benefits" compared to abstainers at around 90-100 or even more grams of alcohol a day (roughly 7 beers or more). From then on there are only downsides.

For 3-day a week irregular drinkers the optimal health benefit is at ~25g of alcohol a day weekly average, and benefits disappear (relative to abstinence crowd at 50g of alcohol), which basically means the same doses (per drinking day) of 3-4 beers a day, and 7 beers a day, respectively. But benefits are much smaller than drinking every day. You get much greater benefits if you keep drinking every day, or at least 5-6 days a week!

6. Much of the government policies are still rooted in wrong-headed history (prohibition, puritanism), understandable lobbying pressure from various anti-alcohol groups, and because it focuses mostly on evils of alcoholisms, DUI and social problems related to alcohol. As a result the clear, dramatic benefits of moderate daily alcohol consumption that show up in virtually every study are largely ignored (or at least severely understated), the correct range of "moderate alcohol consumption" is incorrectly advertised as 0-1 or 0-2 drink units a day, rather than more appropriate 2-4 drinks a day every day, and health risks of abstinence are not made clear at all, with officials often deliberately manipulating data to mask these effects (makes it easier to argue that no alcohol consumption is best option). This is very unfortunate since as a result, we have 100+ million people in this country alone who deliberately increase their relative mortality risk rates (by as much as a factor of 2-3!) by entirely avoiding what society and various groups conveniently label as "poison" (alcohol).

7. Alcoholism and alcohol-related illnesses at very high levels of consumption are a serious health problem for people affected, but *real* alcoholism affects a much smaller fraction of population than many people believe, and the reasons/connections to illnesses - cirrhosis of liver, cancers, are far more tenuous than public is lead to believe.


Sorry for long post, but the book, while relatively short, is well-researched and extremely well-referenced, and is good food for thought.

Anyone else read it?
 
1. This is interesting since about 1/3 of US population doesn't drink at all, and it increases their mortality significantly. Selfish bastards! They might as well smoke pack a day and eat deep fried food all day.

They do!!


3. Drinking slowly (sipping, not gulping), drinking with food (slows down adsorption of alcohol in intestines even more), drinking in the evening, drinking lower-ABV drinks - such as beer, as opposed to hard liquor, dramatically increases health benefits.
This is interesting since it's the second time today that I've seen the word adsorption used. The first was from someone that worked in water treatment talking about how charcoal filtration works.

4. Drinking daily, at moderate level (5-6 days a week) is much BETTER for you than drinking 1-2 or even 3 days a week and abstaining remaining days. Even drinking 7 days a week, is always much better than 1-2 days a week - at any amount per day.
Thank you Jesus!!!

5. Here's the kicker - the "moderate" levels of drinking where you get maximum benefit is NOT at 1 or 2 "unit" drinks a day average, every day. (One unit of drink, 12 oz of 5% ABV beer is about 14g of alcohol). Poikolainen quotes multiple studies that show that for daily drinkers significant benefits extend to 3-4 and even 5-8 drinks a day. To me this is very controversial, but data seems to point that way.
See number 4 above


6. Much of the government policies are still rooted in wrong-headed history (prohibition, puritanism)
No, they're rooted in preserving their control over the people.


7. Alcoholism and alcohol-related illnesses at very high levels of consumption are a serious health problem for people affected, but *real* alcoholism affects a much smaller fraction of population than many people believe, and the reasons/connections to illnesses - cirrhosis of liver, cancers, are far more tenuous than public is lead to believe.
I know some alcoholics and I watched their progression over many years. One is in AA now and the other keeps screwing his life up. It's not a 'fine line' between drinking a lot and being an alcoholic. There are chemical issues with certain people that make them susceptible to alcoholism.

Many years ago I learned that alcoholics take the acetaldehyde (you know, that green-apple taste) that alcohol is broken down to and combine it with certain neuro-transmitters to make the precursors of morphine.

Interesting post. I'll have to look into some of this research. Thanks!!
 
I'd have a moderate amount of beer with this guy. Preferably 5-6 days a week.




I'm gonna buy this book for the wife for Christmas. Maybe it'll get her to stop yappin' for 5 minutes...

:ban:

Uh, at the end of the OP's first post, he mentions that it is a relatively short book so don't get your hopes up for a full 5 minutes. Maybe 3....
:D
 
Uh, at the end of the OP's first post, he mentions that it is a relatively short book so don't get your hopes up for a full 5 minutes. Maybe 3....
:D

its 172 pages, so not super-short. It also has about 200 citations. But I went through it pretty fast and would have enjoyed even more extensive background, discussion, history etc.
 
its 172 pages, so not super-short. It also has about 200 citations. But I went through it pretty fast and would have enjoyed even more extensive background, discussion, history etc.

just to follow up - here's a good summary article on american ignorance of dangers of abstinence and benefits of moderate alcohol consumption (which extends to 2-4 drinks daily for men and 1-2 for women):

http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891

This author, Dr. Stanton Peele, PhD, who is an expert on alcohol and its dependency, and Dr. Poikolainen, do not quote their own research by the way - they merely summarize and analyze the vast medical consensus, based on hundreds of studies, so-called meta-analyses, following millions of people over decades.
In popular news these opinions are typically dismissed with "remember that alcohol is a toxin and no amount is safe" from non-experts, which is just so simplistically wrong and ignores the crucial point of these studies (abstinence is worse for you than even "excessive" drinking of 6-8 drinks a day!), or with "remember resveratrol hype that turned out to be wrong?", forgetting that resveratrol hype was created largely by the media, not scientific community.
 
How about 4-5 per weekday then 10-12 per weekend day? Does that throw the benefits out the window?

I am not a doctor, but according to studies, YES.

10-12 per day (assuming it's 5% ABV beer, 10-12 "standard" 12-oz bottles) translates into 140-160g of alcohol per day. That's excessive and probably cancels out benefits, and even gives you overall negatives.

According to the plot/table from the book you max out on benefits around 50g a day, and lose any benefits around 90g per day (compared to non-drinkers).

Your risks are lower than abstinent group 5 days a week, by about a factor of 0.5.
But higher 2 days a week by a factor, let's say 2.6.

On average, assuming simple linear risk model, you are (5*0.5+2*2.6)/7=1.1 times more "unhealthy" (about 10% more mortality risk) than abstinence crowd.

You lost any positive health benefits accumulated Mon-Fri during your weekend drinking. I would scale back to 4 drinks or so on Sat-Sun to get most health benefits back, while still enjoying your beer (responsibly). Then you can get down to 0.5 overall risk regime, reducing your mortality risk by a factor of 2!


Table2.png
 
Interesting stuff. I´ve seen it before, but never went in depth. Are the reasons for this understood? I see heart disease here, but is anything else clear yet?
 
Two things:

1. I'll always defer to the old saying "excessive drinking is having one more drink than is had by the person defining excessive drinking".

2. I'm not sure what terminology this guy's using as I haven't read his book, my understanding was that a "unit" of alcohol was a British usage, at did not equate to the 12 oz serving of 5% beer. That, at least in US usage, is a "drink". A "unit" corresponds to the actual ability of the liver to process alcohol, and is a lower amount. Essentially 1 "unit" of alcohol is 10ml, but one "drink" is 17.7ml. Just different measurements used to express the same thing. Of course, since he's apparently breaking things down into actual grams per day, I'm assuming that he's defined his terms well and there shouldn't be any confusion. Just an observation on my part.
 
Two things:

1. I'll always defer to the old saying "excessive drinking is having one more drink than is had by the person defining excessive drinking".

2. I'm not sure what terminology this guy's using as I haven't read his book, my understanding was that a "unit" of alcohol was a British usage, at did not equate to the 12 oz serving of 5% beer. That, at least in US usage, is a "drink". A "unit" corresponds to the actual ability of the liver to process alcohol, and is a lower amount. Essentially 1 "unit" of alcohol is 10ml, but one "drink" is 17.7ml. Just different measurements used to express the same thing. Of course, since he's apparently breaking things down into actual grams per day, I'm assuming that he's defined his terms well and there shouldn't be any confusion. Just an observation on my part.


Yes, brits and australians and maybe french may use 10g of alcohol as a unit. US officials - CDC etc. use 14g for some reason, it may be confusing but the interesting thing is that french definition of "moderate drinking", and even more broadly european definition, is considerably higher than american definition.
 
Interesting stuff. I´ve seen it before, but never went in depth. Are the reasons for this understood? I see heart disease here, but is anything else clear yet?

most of these studies just looked at overall mortality, without trying to isolate various factors. Just following a lot of people over long period of time. Which is sort of the "raw data" that is of most importance here.

But from the book, it does appear that consumption of alcohol increases risks of many cancers (stomach cancer, throat cancer etc.), more or less linearly with alcohol consumption. That's bad news. However, these cancers are relatively rare to begin with, so the effect is small.

A much greater effect, by order of magnitude at least, is positive effect on cardiovascular health, which is also #1 killer in US and the world.

Basically alcohol thins the blood, prevents clots, relaxes, reduces hypertension/stress, depression, etc.

There is also positive social benefit but this is usually corrected for in the studies (people who socialize and abstain vs. people who socialize and drink, as well as lone drinkers vs. lone abstainers).
 
Bought this book, am looking forward to it's insights.

I typically try to keep myself to 4 x 5% drinks, with at least 2 days off per week. That's enough to get me comfortably tipsy, but I think another interesting factor is that if you are drinking a lot, you are consuming a lot of calories. Figure you'd have to exercise an extra 20-30 minutes for each beer you drink to keep things in balance. What is very interesting is if you drink more, and exercise, and watch your weight, is that the magic trifecta?!

Of course, this week I was in Portland, so enjoyed a little bit more. (Wow, Laurelwood IPA and Ecliptic Brewing are incredible!!!).
 
Leave it to a Finn to encourage us to drink more!

I'm guessing that he is well ostracised among the Finnish medical circles because of this book. There are a huge amount of alcohol-related laws and policies in this country, some of them unbelievably ridiculous, and it only seems to keep getting worse.

For example, they recently passed a law that a convenient to carry package of beer (6 pack, 8 pack, 12 pack, or 24-can case) can not be cheaper than purchasing the same number of single cans.

And then there was the Ron Jeremy scandal. There was a rum with his face on the bottle (Rum de Jeremy) and they made the manufacturer change the label because they said it reminded people of porn.

The list goes on and on. And still, people keep on drinking more and more!
 
Did you look in the Homebrew Media forum?



;)


I searched entire site using google site:homebrewtalk option for the author and book title and it came up empty. The built-in search engine is not so great.

Was this discussed and I missed it?
 
Leave it to a Finn to encourage us to drink more!

I'm guessing that he is well ostracised among the Finnish medical circles because of this book. There are a huge amount of alcohol-related laws and policies in this country, some of them unbelievably ridiculous, and it only seems to keep getting worse.

For example, they recently passed a law that a convenient to carry package of beer (6 pack, 8 pack, 12 pack, or 24-can case) can not be cheaper than purchasing the same number of single cans.

And then there was the Ron Jeremy scandal. There was a rum with his face on the bottle (Rum de Jeremy) and they made the manufacturer change the label because they said it reminded people of porn.

The list goes on and on. And still, people keep on drinking more and more!

But that's totally "Berufsverbot"??
 
So I was watching Real Time with Bill Maher on HBO today - the latest show.

He had Dan Buettner talk about his new book [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Zones-Solution-Eating-Healthiest/dp/1426211929/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1440912252&sr=8-1]"Blue Zones" [/URL]- about areas where people live very long (90-100 years or maybe at least a decade or more longer than average people around them) and what is different about those people in their lifestyle etc.

Basic summary - eat more seeds/nuts and beans, less meat, move/be active, socialize (easier done in cities than in suburbs).

But then he talks about "happy hour" effect, how moderate drinkers outlive non-drinkers, and this means about 2, or even 3 drinks a day (but done every day, rather saving it up and having 21 drinks on Sunday - basically mirroring Poikolainen's summary of thousands of research articles, even if not going to ~4 drinks a day claim). Still, he goes quite a bit above and beyond outdated "more than a drink a day is bad!" or "alcohol is a toxin/poison, don't drink at all!".

Of course, in appeal to anti-alcohol lobby he also has to say "not to say that if you are a non-drinker, you should start drinking."

Hmmm - I just don't follow this logic. If moderate drinking (3 drinks a day) extends your life - by reducing your death risk by 30%-50%, why SHOULDN'T people who don't drink start drinking? We should encourage them to start drinking, just like we should encourage smokers to quit smoking and obese people to watch their diets and excercise, otherwise we are ALL paying for their health problems.

Are you telling me that if someone discovered a pill that had numerous studies prove to lower your risk of death by 30% or maybe even 50%, and it cost you $2-3 a day, that the standard advice would be - if you are not already taking this pill, please don't start now?
In what universe?!
 
This is very interesting. Moderation is great, but sometimes, I just don't do it... time to start working on that.
I also don't think we should really encourage people to drink if they have no interest in drinking.
 
I've heard of this report before. Frankly, I don't often feel capable of drinking more than 2 a night and I am not allowed to drink at all during the day, so I guess I'm not going to be as healthy as I want to be.
 
I've heard of this report before. Frankly, I don't often feel capable of drinking more than 2 a night and I am not allowed to drink at all during the day, so I guess I'm not going to be as healthy as I want to be.

Unfortunate you aren't capable... I'm more than capable of having more than 2 a day, but usually feel better overall when I do only have 2 or less. I usually pour pints too, although there's probably 2 or 3 fingers of head, by the time it's to the top it's basically 12oz of liquid. Three is typically the sweet spot. I'm more worried about calories and my triglyceride levels with my consumption of beer.
 
Unfortunate you aren't capable... I'm more than capable of having more than 2 a day, but usually feel better overall when I do only have 2 or less. I usually pour pints too, although there's probably 2 or 3 fingers of head, by the time it's to the top it's basically 12oz of liquid. Three is typically the sweet spot. I'm more worried about calories and my triglyceride levels with my consumption of beer.

I could have more than 2 a DAY, but 2 after work is all I ever want.
 
I never heard of this report however between dinner, kids bed time and cleaning up the dinner mess before heading for a shower before bed 2 drinks is about all there is time for.

Can we up the ABV to 6% or 7% to make up for the lack of volume? :D
:mug:
 
I never heard of this report however between dinner, kids bed time and cleaning up the dinner mess before heading for a shower before bed 2 drinks is about all there is time for.

Can we up the ABV to 6% or 7% to make up for the lack of volume? :D
:mug:

for sure - it total alcohol that matters. So 2 bottles of 7.5 ABV beer is about the same as 3 bottles of 5% ABV.
The biggest difference is between abstaining altogether and drinking just 1-2 "drink units" a day. The curve is sort of flat at 2-4 drinks until you go above 4 drinks when benefits disappear gradually.
 
I've always thought the generally accepted definitions are dumb. It's hard to not see a very negative connotation to the designation of "heavy drinker", yet that's exactly what I am under the accepted definitions, simply because I often have 2 or more drinks per day.

There was a time I was really bothered by that imposed stigma, but now that I'm approaching 40, I find I'm caring less and less. To me, a few drinks in the evening is part of the relaxation ritual; one of life's small pleasures. Also, when I think about the big picture...

I can afford it.
I am ideal weight, and in decent shape.
My diet is quite good.
I have no problem performing a work.
I have great familial relationships, none negatively affected.
I have several longstanding friendships, none negatively affected.
I don't get angry when I drink.
I don't get violent when I drink.
I don't get sloppy when I drink.
I don't get emotional or sad when I drink.

So what's the damn problem? Anybody who wants to judge me is free to do so, but don't expect me to give a shart.
 
I've always thought the generally accepted definitions are dumb. It's hard to not see a very negative connotation to the designation of "heavy drinker", yet that's exactly what I am under the accepted definitions, simply because I often have 2 or more drinks per day.

Accepted definitions in which country? Because nobody can agree on them.

In Finland, people walk down the street drinking a pint can of beer while they are on their way to catch the bus to work.
 
Well crap. I've been avoiding beer during the week as an exercise in reducing my waistline and I tend to go well beyond the 5 drink a day limit on the weekend. Sounds like I should look into sipping some Whiskey each night and reeling in my weekends a bit. I just love beer so much though...

-- Nathan
 
Are you telling me that if someone discovered a pill that had numerous studies prove to lower your risk of death by 30% or maybe even 50%, and it cost you $2-3 a day, that the standard advice would be - if you are not already taking this pill, please don't start now?
In what universe?!

With a global population of 7.3 billion and growing, do you really think a $2-$3 dollar a day pill to provide a minimum lifespan of 100 years is such a good idea?
 
I never heard of this report however between dinner, kids bed time and cleaning up the dinner mess before heading for a shower before bed 2 drinks is about all there is time for.

Can we up the ABV to 6% or 7% to make up for the lack of volume? :D
:mug:

That's why the shower beer was invented. ;)
 
Having 3-5 homebrews can add up to almost 1,000 calories. I can't see myself getting all the other nutrients I need, including fiber and protein, and stay under the anti-beer-belly maximum.
 
Leave it to a Finn to encourage us to drink more!

I'm guessing that he is well ostracised among the Finnish medical circles because of this book. There are a huge amount of alcohol-related laws and policies in this country, some of them unbelievably ridiculous, and it only seems to keep getting worse.

For example, they recently passed a law that a convenient to carry package of beer (6 pack, 8 pack, 12 pack, or 24-can case) can not be cheaper than purchasing the same number of single cans.

And then there was the Ron Jeremy scandal. There was a rum with his face on the bottle (Rum de Jeremy) and they made the manufacturer change the label because they said it reminded people of porn.

The list goes on and on. And still, people keep on drinking more and more!

:off:
I feel sure you've got it worse, but in Pennsylvania alcohol, including beer, is sold by state run stores. There are places that sell 6packs here and there, but for the most part it all gets sold in state stores. There is no such thing as running to the grocery store to pick up a 6 pack, although they do seem to be lightening up on that.

To that end, there is an enforceable law on the books that disallows anyone from carrying more than one bag (or case) of alcohol outside of the store at one time. In other words if you pick up two cases of beer, you've got to make two trips.
 
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