15-18% ABV Sour

I'm toying around with the idea of brewing a really high abv sour and looking for advice on how to make sure it gets funky/sour at alcohol levels that typically kill off brett and bugs. I came up with the idea when drinking a dfh fort, which is an 18%abv raspberry beer. I thought it would be pretty awesome with some sourness and funk.

My plan right now to get sourness is to either sour mash or pitch lacto into virgin wort and let it ride until sourness is achieved. I don't know what to do about getting funk since it'll be above levels where brett is usually comfortable and those funky flavors usually take a lot of time. Are there any brett strains that are more alcohol tolerant than others?

I have roeselare, ecy flemish ale, and bug farm cakes at my disposal if that would be a good route to go too.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

How about blending a sour with a high-gravity clean beer?

Rather than sour mashing or pitching lacto before the yeast, I would use a blend or dregs that contain both lacto and pedio. I think you will get a more complex and refined acidity from pedio than from lacto alone or from a sour mash. Depending on what sort of beer you want, either of the ECY blends may be good choices. I've only used Bug Farm for fake lambic so I'm not sure what the ABV limit is. I think the Flemish blend will hit it's pH limit before it's abv limit. I've used it in several beers and the bigger ones have finished fairly high and very acidic.

I've repitched the ECY02 slurry along with fresh sacc and still not gotten as much attenuation as I'd expected, maybe if you wait until the sacc is done to pitch the ECY02 you'll get a little more. I've hit 1.018 from 1.092 + blueberries and 1.028 from 1.100 + figs pitching fresh yeast and ECY02 at the same time, but got a more pleasing level of acidity from pitching the ECY02 after primary. The ECY only dropped the the third beer from 1.006 to 1.004, but still produced a good bit bit of acid.

I guess your best bet is to brew the biggest beer you can and ferment with whatever strain you want. When that's fermenting out, pitch a high grav yeast and start doing sugar additions to get up to desired abv, and then add the slurry of bugs and critters. Or if you have a strain in mind that will ferment the sugar additions in acidified beer, add the slurry and then start bossting abv when you get taste you want. The quad I made with figs tastes like sour fire. I added about 7 pounds of fresh figs to 4.5 gallons of beer. I don't know what the sugar addition actually was, but it tastes like it's in the abv range you're going for. It also tastes like the acetobacter on the figs and the brett are thinking about having a party and trying to make nail polish remover, but I'll let it ride a while before I taste it again.

I have three five gallon batches of imperial flander's brown that come out to 11,12 and 13% I started the 11% one with lacto only for four days at 90* then lowered the temp and added roeselare. The 12 and 13% I just used second gen roeselare that had Cantillon, JP and Hanssens dregs added during it's first use. They are all fairly sour at 1-1.5 years old and taste great. I say this all the time but JP dregs will sour anything.

dcHokie said:

How about blending a sour with a high-gravity clean beer?

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i thought about this because i have a buddy with an overly acidic sour.

using the yeast cakes of the gnarly ecy and jp dregs and just letting it ride for a while (i'm assuming probably in the neighborhood of 2 years) might be my best bet.

do you guys think it would work to sour something like an 8-10% beer for like a year and then start feeding it sugar and high abv tolerant yeast. staggered sugar, oxygen, and yeast additions are the methods i've used when brewing high abv beers in the past but I always keep the yeast active until the alcohol level is where i want it. I've never taken a beer that had a stable fg and started feeding it again to ramp up alcohol. Not sure if that would cause problems.

I've played around with freeze-concentrating a malty sour, that was fun.

The highest I've gone for a traditionally brewed sour was about 12%. Turned out to be a weird/interesting beer after a few years of aging, but never got very sour, just an English-"stale"-Bretty character. Certainly could be countered with different/additional strains. Apparently some Lacto used in Sake production are good up to nearly 20% ABV.

Personally I don't think producing a sour beer and then feeding it to get another 8-10% ABV is a great idea. Adding oxygen late in production will just turn the beer into a vinegar-bomb. Most Ale yeasts won't be happy at such a low pH too.

Oldsock said:

The highest I've gone for a traditionally brewed sour was about 12%. Turned out to be a weird/interesting beer after a few years of aging, but never got very sour, just an English-"stale"-Bretty character. Certainly could be countered with different/additional strains. Apparently some Lacto used in Sake production are good up to nearly 20% ABV.

Personally I don't think producing a sour beer and then feeding it to get another 8-10% ABV is a great idea. Adding oxygen late in production will just turn the beer into a vinegar-bomb. Most Ale yeasts won't be happy at such a low pH too.

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I read your blog post on big funky, is that the beer you're referencing? I was wondering how it ended up. Do you know of a way to get a hold of a lacto strain like that? Would ECY or Bootleg have something or would i have to try to culture it somehow?

I'm glad you pointed out the issues of vinegar and how the low ph could affect ale yeasts if i went with souring then bumping up abv because those didn't cross my mind.

I'd imagine pitching lacto first before any primary strains and let that go to the right sour level. Then pitch your other strains?


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jester5120 said:

I read your blog post on big funky, is that the beer you're referencing? I was wondering how it ended up. Do you know of a way to get a hold of a lacto strain like that? Would ECY or Bootleg have something or would i have to try to culture it somehow?

I'm glad you pointed out the issues of vinegar and how the low ph could affect ale yeasts if i went with souring then bumping up abv because those didn't cross my mind.

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Yep. Down to my last bottle, the last few have been pretty spectacular. Probably should do a final tasting/wrap-up.

You'd have to talk to Al or Jeff to see what their bug are tolerant to. The Cascade Lacto strain seems pretty tolerant as well.

What about light colored, high starting gravity wort with a commercial mix like a lacto and a dupont saison strain, then finishing the beer with wine yeast? The saison yeast would end up being killed by the wine yeast if you use a strain like K1-V116. But it would survive well to 18%ABV if there are easy fermentables left. Just an idea.

statseeker said:

What about light colored, high starting gravity wort with a commercial mix like a lacto and a dupont saison strain, then finishing the beer with wine yeast? The saison yeast would end up being killed by the wine yeast if you use a strain like K1-V116. But it would survive well to 18%ABV if there are easy fermentables left. Just an idea.

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Odds are there won't be much left the Wine yeast can ferment after the Lacto and brewer's yeast have their fill. Brett would be a better bet as it's alcohol/acid tolerant, attenuative, and delicious!

K1V-1116 can tolerate high ABV and low pH. I'd guess you could pitch this once the other bugs go inactive. The main problem would be stopping it before it completely dries out your beer. You might need to make a starter and gradually lower the pH so the fresh yeast aren't shocked. I'd say you could bottle carb then stove top pasteurize the way I do with cider to keep you FG where you want it. Disclaimer: this is all speculation, lol.

Vikings said:

K1V-1116 can tolerate high ABV and low pH. I'd guess you could pitch this once the other bugs go inactive. The main problem would be stopping it before it completely dries out your beer. You might need to make a starter and gradually lower the pH so the fresh yeast aren't shocked. I'd say you could bottle carb then stove top pasteurize the way I do with cider to keep you FG where you want it. Disclaimer: this is all speculation, lol.

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I was suspicious that a wine yeast wouldn't be able to ferment the more complex sugars left towards the end of fermentation, but it might actually work:

From the Danstar website: "Beer yeast usually can ferment maltotriose, most wine yeast cannot." However, "There is one very famous wine yeast that is both POF negative and can ferment maltotriose. It is probably the largest selling wine yeast strain in the world. It is Lalvin K1-V1116."

Not sure you'd need to pasteurize, there should be some longer dextrins left (sour beers tend to be pretty dry anyway).

when i've taken a beer up to that abv in the past i usually use wlp099. do you guys think wine yeast is a better option? Do you think it could add some interesting flavor compounds for the brett to play with?

This particular wine yeast is a killer yeast. Brett will not survive the encounter. The bugs might but this is purely AFTER the brett/bugs have imparted their flavors.

I've had saisons brewed with K1-V116 through a local brewpub and they were spectacular. The driness and somewhat higher tannic character was a welcome aspect actually. Like a sparkling wine but with malt. Very interesting to see a version done with brett then the wine yeast.

statseeker said:

This particular wine yeast is a killer yeast. Brett will not survive the encounter. The bugs might but this is purely AFTER the brett/bugs have imparted their flavors.

I've had saisons brewed with K1-V116 through a local brewpub and they were spectacular. The driness and somewhat higher tannic character was a welcome aspect actually. Like a sparkling wine but with malt. Very interesting to see a version done with brett then the wine yeast.

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As far as I'm aware Brett isn't a "susceptible" strain to the killer toxin. I did a sour red primaried with BM45 that soured/funked without issue.

I hit about 14% abv with a sour so you're 15% is most definitely doable. Just like anything, make sure you have BIG yeast starters that will be able to handle it. + adding fruit later on in the process will add more sugars to help you get to the higher alcohols and the brett will tear anything up.

My process was Belgian Quadruple @ 11%. Then I added fruit and mixed bugs (yeast cake from previous brew) and cherries. Between the addition of more sugars from fruit and the bugs chewing through the residual sugars the final product was somewhere in the neighborhood of 14%. Huge but it doesn't taste anywhere near that alcohol since it's aged for years and the sourness hides any heat/booziness.

So here's kind of my plan based off of the different ideas being bounced around. I'm thinking about making a basic triple or a high gravity lambic for a base, souring the mash, pitch onto a 2 y.o. 4th gen roeselare cake i have, possibly throw in ecy spooky brett at high krausen to get quick funk (al said this works), do sugar additions and fruit to get to desired abv. I'd also like to incorporate bm45 for alcohol tolerance and it sounds like it does some really interesting things flavor wise, not sure when would be best to add it.

How does this plan look? Any changes i should make or issues with what i'm planning?

jessup said:

I hit about 14% abv with a sour so you're 15% is most definitely doable. Just like anything, make sure you have BIG yeast starters that will be able to handle it. + adding fruit later on in the process will add more sugars to help you get to the higher alcohols and the brett will tear anything up.

My process was Belgian Quadruple @ 11%. Then I added fruit and mixed bugs (yeast cake from previous brew) and cherries. Between the addition of more sugars from fruit and the bugs chewing through the residual sugars the final product was somewhere in the neighborhood of 14%. Huge but it doesn't taste anywhere near that alcohol since it's aged for years and the sourness hides any heat/booziness.

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Unless you are adding a concentrated form of fruit (like sour cherry concentrate, or dried sour cherries), the fruit dilutes the ABV of a strong beer. This is because the raw/frozen/juiced fruit adds both sugar (which is fermented into alcohol) and water which dilutes both that new alcohol, and the alcohol already present in the beer. Most fruits are 1.040-1.060 (wine grapes are one exception), so if your wort’s OG was higher than you actually reduced the ABV. Which explains why it tastes so much lower...

I had a couple more ideas on this beer and wanted to bounce them off you guys. I think I have the sourness taken care of but now i'm wondering about keeping the yeast functional in such an acidic environment. wild brews states that brett is good until about a ph of 3.4. does that just mean it won't reproduce but can still convert sugars to alcohol? my bigger concern is the wlp099 as I assume it won't reproduce in nearly that low of a ph. If i build up a monster starter am I good to go?

Another option for carbonation (due to the very low finishing pH) is to skip bottle conditioning. Ferment dry, force carbonate and bottle with a counter pressure "beer gun".

FredTheNuke said:

Another option for carbonation (due to the very low finishing pH) is to skip bottle conditioning. Ferment dry, force carbonate and bottle with a counter pressure "beer gun".

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yeah i'm not even gonna attempt to condition the beer. that's the route i've gone with all my big beers.

I agree - I'd hate to add some corn sugar and wine yeast, then wait a few months and have the re-fermentation not occur because of the pH or ABV... That would suck having to open all the bottles, carefully pour them into a keg and carbonate. Too bad there isn't a cap that changes color based on the internal pressure of the bottle. Damn - if I could engineer it I'd make millions!!! Ahhhhh....



OK - head out of clouds. Back to work.