Water Question

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HossTheGreat

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So, I have been working at eliminating some grainy off-flavors from my lighter beers. I have documented my issues in this post.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/help-pinpointing-off-flavor-222470/

I decided that it would be a good idea to send a sample of my water off to Ward for analysis. I received my report today and have included the results below. I've been reading a bit on water chemistry, but I'm not the greatest when it comes to this stuff. I'm hoping that some of you could take a look and advise on how my water stacks up and anything I can potentially do to help clean up my lighter beers.

pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 82
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.14
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.7 / 0.7

ppm
Sodium, Na 4
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 7
Magnesium, Mg 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 22
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 4
Chloride, Cl 6
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 15
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 13
 
Your water is very low in ion content which makes it fairly easy to modify for various styles. At 7ppm the Ca+ is very low and all beers need Calcium. To start off simply use Calcium chloride for light lagers and Calcium sulphate for ales and get the Ca+ up to a base of 50-75ppm.
 
That's almost my water exactly, you shouldn't be getting any off flavors in a light srm beer. Although color has little to do with anything, it's the mash ph that counts.

I just made a Classsic American Lager(3.2 srm) with very little salts, it was technically the best beer i've ever brewed.


_
 
Thanks for the info guys. I'm not saying that the water is the cause of my off-flavors, however I'm trying to refine every part of my processy so that I can make the best beer possible. I've tweaked my crush, BIAB bag material, will be checking the ph of my mash, etc....It may not be one thing but if I improve every piece I can, I know it'll help make a better beer. :mug:
 
The advice to supplement calcium is, in general, good though you probably would want to limit it for Bohemian Pilseners. Equally important is the use of acid in some form to get pH into proper range. That will make a dramatic difference in the quality of your beers. See the Water Chemistry Primer in the stickies.
 
The advice to supplement calcium is, in general, good though you probably would want to limit it for Bohemian Pilseners. Equally important is the use of acid in some form to get pH into proper range. That will make a dramatic difference in the quality of your beers. See the Water Chemistry Primer in the stickies.

I have been using 5.2 in the mash, however since I've been doing BIAB and mashing in the full volume (ie 8 gallons or so), I haven't upped the amount I'm using. I have also never tested the ph. So on my next batch, I'm going to measure out the proper amount of 5.2 and measure my ph with a test strip. Is there any issue adding calcium while also using the 5.2?
 
Given your low alkalinity, the 5.2 Stabilizer could be doing you a bit of good in keeping the pH from dropping too much with dark grists. But, that comes at the cost of adding sodium to your wort. Not really a good idea and probably unneeded for your paler beers. I'm sure AJ has more guidance.
 
So, I have been working at eliminating some grainy off-flavors from my lighter beers. I have documented my issues in this post.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/help-pinpointing-off-flavor-222470/

I decided that it would be a good idea to send a sample of my water off to Ward for analysis. I received my report today and have included the results below. I've been reading a bit on water chemistry, but I'm not the greatest when it comes to this stuff. I'm hoping that some of you could take a look and advise on how my water stacks up and anything I can potentially do to help clean up my lighter beers.

pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 82
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.14
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.7 / 0.7

ppm
Sodium, Na 4
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 7
Magnesium, Mg 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 22
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 4
Chloride, Cl 6
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 15
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 13



I have pretty much the same water as you, and my dark beers always seem to come out a little thin ( they seem to be missing something from the malt) even though I hit all my numbers perfectly. I have been playing with the bru'n water program with my recipes and plan on using it on my next beer. I have been researching water for about a year now , and I think a little calcium would help. I used to add epsom salt for magnesium , but later found out that the mash already adds more than enough magnesium... So on my last 5 or 6 beers I basically have been throwing in a little gypsum (5 grams) to the boil for yeast health and flavor fullness. I now realize I have been competely ignoring my mash ph (especially for darker beers) so with the bru'n water program I can get the mash additions correct without overdoing it. It seems as though I need to bring my mash ph up a little with anything over a 10 srm beer , so I can't see why adding acid would help....the program reccomends adding some combination of pickling lime , gypsum , or calcium chloride in order to bring up the mash ph to an acceptable level.......If I were you I would download the bru'n water program even for the sake of all the info on water it gives. as far as lighter beers go I think our water is perfect except for maybe a little calcium for yeast health as others have suggested.
 
on my next batch, I'm going to measure out the proper amount of 5.2 and measure my ph with a test strip. Is there any issue adding calcium while also using the 5.2?

There is a potential issue with it depending on the amounts of 5.2 and calcium added. 5.2 is a mix of monobasic and dibasic sodium phosphates. Calcium phosphate is extremely insoluble. That's why your teeth and bones are made of it (plus a couple of other things). At reasonable concentrations and pH near 5.2 there shouldn't be any precipitation but 5.2 doesn't hold a pH anywhere near 5.2 even in distilled water. No one has figured out how to make this stuff do what the manufacturer claims it does so, in effect, all it does is load your brew with sodium. I advise against its use for this reason.

If you want mash pH near 5.2 (and I don't think you do - 5.4 would be more like it IMO) you will need to use some acid (certainly for light beers and for some fairly dark ones).

Do not rely on test strips for measurement of mash pH. They are simply too inaccurate. Decent pH meters are available for < $100.
 
I have pretty much the same water as you, and my dark beers always seem to come out a little thin ( they seem to be missing something from the malt) even though I hit all my numbers perfectly. I have been playing with the bru'n water program with my recipes and plan on using it on my next beer. I have been researching water for about a year now , and I think a little calcium would help. I used to add epsom salt for magnesium , but later found out that the mash already adds more than enough magnesium... So on my last 5 or 6 beers I basically have been throwing in a little gypsum (5 grams) to the boil for yeast health and flavor fullness. I now realize I have been competely ignoring my mash ph (especially for darker beers) so with the bru'n water program I can get the mash additions correct without overdoing it. It seems as though I need to bring my mash ph up a little with anything over a 10 srm beer , so I can't see why adding acid would help....the program reccomends adding some combination of pickling lime , gypsum , or calcium chloride in order to bring up the mash ph to an acceptable level.......If I were you I would download the bru'n water program even for the sake of all the info on water it gives. as far as lighter beers go I think our water is perfect except for maybe a little calcium for yeast health as others have suggested.

I'm checking out the spreadsheet now. It's great. However, I'm curious if it's still accurate for doing full volume BIAB mashes. I have seen other spreadsheets that state they are not accurate in a grain to water ratio above 2.5 qt/lb. My process involves bringing approx. 8 gallons or so to strike temp then adding my grain. After 60 min, I raise the temp to 170 for 10 min for a mashout. I then pull the bag out of the kettle and let it drain while bringing my water to a boil. I do not sparge.
 
There is a potential issue with it depending on the amounts of 5.2 and calcium added. 5.2 is a mix of monobasic and dibasic sodium phosphates. Calcium phosphate is extremely insoluble. That's why your teeth and bones are made of it (plus a couple of other things). At reasonable concentrations and pH near 5.2 there shouldn't be any precipitation but 5.2 doesn't hold a pH anywhere near 5.2 even in distilled water. No one has figured out how to make this stuff do what the manufacturer claims it does so, in effect, all it does is load your brew with sodium. I advise against its use for this reason.

If you want mash pH near 5.2 (and I don't think you do - 5.4 would be more like it IMO) you will need to use some acid (certainly for light beers and for some fairly dark ones).

Do not rely on test strips for measurement of mash pH. They are simply too inaccurate. Decent pH meters are available for < $100.

Thanks for the info. I certainly don't have any issues ditching the 5.2 all together. It's just something that was recommended to me to use since I started AG. I'm trying to read and take this all in, but chemistry was certainly not my strongest subject in school. I'm just trying to absorb as much info as I can right now....but it is certainly confusing to me.
 
So, I was reading yooper's sticky on water adjustments. There it's recommended as a baseline for soft water to start out with 1tsp of calcium chloride per 5 gallons of water and 2% acidulated malt of the grist. So, if I went ahead and applied this to my mash based on my water profile would I be in the ball park, for say a pale ale?
 
So, I was reading yooper's sticky on water adjustments. There it's recommended as a baseline for soft water to start out with 1tsp of calcium chloride per 5 gallons of water and 2% acidulated malt of the grist. So, if I went ahead and applied this to my mash based on my water profile would I be in the ball park, for say a pale ale?
Yes. If you use rahr 2-row (which measures a couple of tenths lower than any other similar domestic malt in a distilled water mash, for whatever reason) skip the acid malt.
 
Yes. If you use rahr 2-row (which measures a couple of tenths lower than any other similar domestic malt in a distilled water mash, for whatever reason) skip the acid malt.

Nope, I buy my grain in bulk by the sack and it's not Rahr. I'll give this a go on my next brew and see if it turns out. In the meantime, I'll still be researching this stuff and playing with the spreadsheet to try and learn more about it. Thanks for everyone's help.
 

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