Burnt wort = burnt taste (HELP!!!)

I recently tried an all grain brew (nut brown ale) and completely messed it up. The grains got burnt and after transferring to secondary (last night), you could definitely taste the burnt grains.

So my question is...can I do anything to hide the flavor? I was thinking of maybe adding honey...but not sure. I am going to bottle it and try it anyway, but figured if I could do anything, I should do it.

Thanks for all your help.

Burnt? Did you cook roast them? If not, you mashed at too high a temp. and you are getting tannins from the grains. I'm currious, what type of setup do you have for mashing?

And if it's not that, it's possible that you did scoarch the bottom of your kettle while boiling and it could have e burnt taste, but I've never got burnt...

If you scorched the wort that flavor isnt going anywhere.

Yea I did scorch the wort...so should I just dump it???

how'd you scorch an AG batch? there's nothing 'thick' to settle on the bottom and burn (unlike adding dry or especially liquid extract to the boil)

smmcdermott said:

Yea I did scorch the wort...so should I just dump it???

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You're giving conflicting statements. First you said you scorched the grains and then you said you scorched the wort. That's two different things, and neither are easy to do with AG...

I'm a brewing noob, but in cooking, burnt is forever. I'm assuming the same for brewing.......
Pez.

I burnt the grains, not the wort...sorry. But that doesn't matter in terms of whether or not the taste will laste. Thank you pezman. I am assuming it will suck, but I am going to bottle it anyway and see what happens.

Thank you all.

Burnt will really never go away it may get mellower .


Big ? here how did you burn the grain? Did you put the tun on a flame

I just let the water get too hot I guess....New at this and still learning so I will just put this in the books as a "what not to do" and move on to my next one.

Looks like you should find out more about mashing. The grains never get to be a temperature to actually burn them. It's best to start off at a lower temperature and then add some more hot water, stir the mash thoroughly, then take another temperature reading. The temperature should never be above 158 at this point.

Water cannot get above 212F at sea level, and that is much too cold to burn grain.

The flavor will not go away to any large degree.

The issue of exactly how this occurred it relevent, if you want to avoid this in the future.

Hot water cannot burn grain.

This is one of the strangest post I have read here in a long time.

Can you explain your brewing process for us so we can help diagnose what went wrong so you don't make the same mistake twice?

Typical AG batch is done with the grains being placed into a cooler and hot water being added so that it settles about approx 153-158 degrees.

Like, burnt flavors or astringent flavors? I would think you'd pull astringent flavors long before you'd actually scorch the grain.

What is your heat source?

The Pol said:

Hot water cannot burn grain.

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Not directly, but hot water can't burn LME either, and we see plenty of that. I'm thinking stovetop AG, direct heated mashtun, no circulation, grain at bottom of pot got way hotter than 212.

Synovia said:

Not directly, but hot water can't burn LME either, and we see plenty of that. I'm thinking stovetop AG, direct heated mashtun, no circulation, grain at bottom of pot got way hotter than 212.

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You really think it got up to 320F (the caramelization temp of sucrose)? I think that's not too likely considering the liquid would basically have to be pure sucrose for that to happen since even a really really thick simple syrup boils only maybe 10-20F above 212F. I bet he tried to toast some grains in the oven.

Synovia said:

Not directly, but hot water can't burn LME either, and we see plenty of that. I'm thinking stovetop AG, direct heated mashtun, no circulation, grain at bottom of pot got way hotter than 212.

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wow....that is exactly it...stovetop...and i think the grains were on the bottom of the pot....regardless i am retarded and will not be making the same mistakes again. I have taken A LOT of notes, so it won't happen again.

rocketman768 said:

You really think it got up to 320F (the caramelization temp of sucrose)? I think that's not too likely considering the liquid would basically have to be pure sucrose for that to happen since even a really really thick simple syrup boils only maybe 10-20F above 212F. I bet he tried to toast some grains in the oven.

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It would depend on how much grains he has in the pot. If its packed full of grain, its going to get way above 320 at the bottom, as theres no way for the heat to disperse.

I see. You had the grains in the pot while bringing them up to temp. If that is the case then lack of stirring might do it but still you only want the grains to reach the mid 150's. You would be much better off converting and cooler for a mash tun.

Were you doing a step mash?

smmcdermott said:

...still learning so I will just put this in the books as a "what not to do" and move on to my next one.

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I think this is the right attitude. Bottle it anyway just for the experience and see how it mellows after sitting for some time. I take a rediculous amount of notes during each brew so I can either repeat or avoid the things I like or dislike in future brews...

-Tripod

I do not have a large pot, a little over 3 gallons I think and there were 8.5 pounds of grains....so it was PACKED....

I will have to get a bigger pot before doing AG then right?

Thank you Tripod, I definitely still need to learn, and this forum is awesome for that.

I had this problem when i put my wort chiller in the kettle right on top of the hop bag, holding the hops to the bottom of the kettle and producing a burnt taste.

smmcdermott said:

I do not have a large pot, a little over 3 gallons I think and there were 8.5 pounds of grains....so it was PACKED....

I will have to get a bigger pot before doing AG then right?

Thank you Tripod, I definitely still need to learn, and this forum is awesome for that.

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Go down to Walmart/Lowes/Kmart/whatever and get yourself a 34qt aluminum steamer/tamale pot. It'll cost you <$25.

Or, buy a turkey fryer kit for $60ish.

Well, when we do something that turns out "wrong" the impulse is to say I did something dumb and not detail the silliness but I suggest you walk through your whole process and where you think you burnt it so we can help critique your process both for your edification and others who may read it before they attempt theirs.

You may get feedback on improving more than just this one part as well...

seigex said:

I had this problem when i put my wort chiller in the kettle right on top of the hop bag, holding the hops to the bottom of the kettle and producing a burnt taste.

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Did the burnt taste stay in the beer?

smmcdermott said:

Did the burnt taste stay in the beer?

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I actually ended up dumping the beer, i know i know, because after I had broken my glass carboy I decided to use sparklets 5 gallon bottles that incidententally had a [7] on the bottom.

After 8 days I went to transfer to a keg for conditioning and the beer smelled so rotten that I started dry heaving when I took a sniff. I just remember when I tasted the wort it tasted burnt.

All I can say is just let it sit an extra month and then taste it, there are MANY MANY stories here about off flavors that subside after extra months of conditioning.

seigex said:

All I can say is just let it sit an extra month and then taste it, there are MANY MANY stories here about off flavors that subside after extra months of conditioning.

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Thank you everyone....I am going to let it sit for a while.

You would be better served by using a 10 gallon cooler, heating the water on the stove, and mashing in the cooler. For the cost of a large enough pot to mash in, you could probably build a suitable mash tun. Just sayin.

8.5 pounds of grain in a 3 gallon pot, was probably like oatmeal...

A thinner mash, 1.5-2.0 quarts of water per pound will probably help yiled better conversion of those sugars, so you will get more bang for your grain buck as well.

To get a mash that thin, you will certainly want a 10 gallon cooler.

I scorched grains on my first decoction (didn't stir enough while grains were boiling). Ruined 10 gallons of what would have been a wonderful Altbier. I followed the batch through to bottling and drank some of it. I still have 2 cases of this beer that was brewed nearly 2 years ago and I've tasted one from time to time to see if the burnt taste had mellowed. It hasn't mellowed at all in any detectable way. I can't bring myself to dump it, but I imagine I will someday.

So, it's up to you, but if you do bottle it, you'll probably end up dumping some or most of it later.

Boiling grains? It seems that there are some AG misconceptions coming out in this thread.

Joker said:

Boiling grains? It seems that there are some AG misconceptions coming out in this thread.

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Seriously... boiling grains should NEVER happen! Not even in a decoction.

Gremlyn1 said:

Seriously... boiling grains should NEVER happen! Not even in a decoction.

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The wiki disagrees:

Once the first temperature rest is complete, a portion of the grain and water is scooped or shoveled out of the mash tun and into the kettle or another heated vessel, where it is brought to a boil. The portion removed, which can often be as much as a third of the grist, is called the decoction.

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If thats not the case, the Wiki needs to be fixed.

Synovia said:

The wiki disagrees:

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Whoops... yeah. I hastily mis-spoke For some reason I was thinking that it was just mash runnings boiled in the decoction. I was hoping to get back and edit myself before anyone noticed

Even still, how you'd burn grain that way...? There should be enough liquid to even the temp out and if you're boiling then the grain shouldn't be able settle on the bottom.

Gremlyn1 said:

Even still, how you'd burn grain that way...? There should be enough liquid to even the temp out and if you're boiling then the grain shouldn't be able settle on the bottom.

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In a decoction, all but a mash-out decoction is a thick decoction. Stirring should be frequent and a gas burner shouldn't be on full blast (my other mistake) while the decoction is boiling to prevent scorching.

I've done numerous decoctions since that first one and they have all produced wonderful beer.

I missed the decoction part of the post. However, not many people use that method for mashing.

I recently made a west coast ipa which i scorched the grains on the botton of the pot also. It gave off an unfortunate burnt flavor but I caught the burning shortly after it started and was able to stir more thoroughly my problem was I put all of migraines in a green bag and submerged it directly on the bottom of the pot. The problem was too much heat on the bag which burnt the bag so I remove the bag and then what was getting burnt was just the grains. Unfortunately there's nothing you can do about this problem except hope it wasn't too overwhelming. In the future I will use a green bag again but will put something in the bottom of the pot to elevate the bag from the bottom

Gremlyn said:

Whoops... yeah. I hastily mis-spoke For some reason I was thinking that it was just mash runnings boiled in the decoction. I was hoping to get back and edit myself before anyone noticed

Even still, how you'd burn grain that way...? There should be enough liquid to even the temp out and if you're boiling then the grain shouldn't be able settle on the bottom.

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Tried my first decotion and had the same misunderstanding as you... but I took it all the way: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7148490#post7148490