Electrical Question, Electricians if possible!!!

Weisbeergal,

We all get it wrong once in a while. Just ask me! I'll tell ya. LOL.
I hate eating crow, but it happens on occasion. Check out Bobby's calculator. It is kind of cool. I give it a two beer minimum on the operation side. LOL.

So, what was this thread about again? {long pause} O yah, HLT heating and beer rig automation. I love automation!!!

Can you say...... POST WHORE! That would be Me.

Bobby_M said:

Weisbeergal is right on many other points but there was a definite slip on the concept of ohms law and pure resistive loads. By the way, I put a little spreadsheet together that will automatically calculate this stuff for you:

http://www.suebob.com/brew/elementcalc.xls

Give it a spin.

Click to expand...

You forgot a column for temperature coefficient.....

I think that is the most you ought to expect out of a lazy a$$ like me.

Bobby_M said:

Weisbeergal is right on many other points but there was a definite slip on the concept of ohms law and pure resistive loads. By the way, I put a little spreadsheet together that will automatically calculate this stuff for you:

http://www.suebob.com/brew/elementcalc.xls

Give it a spin.

Click to expand...

you have to much time on your hands Bobby-M
I see you sitting around in your underware with a homebrew 18 hours a day on HBT LOL is that about right *or is that me*

So you buy a resistive baseboard heater, for example, and it is "rated" at 5500 watts. You have the option of connecting it up to 120 volts or 240 volts. I agree the resistance remains the same - that is why this fixed resistive heater rated for 5500 watts will draw double the current on a lower voltage.
Ohms law does work, however be carefull when working with "Fixed resistances", which most heaters are. Then you must use the Power wheel which indicates that Amps = Watts / volts .
Now if you do not intend of getting 5500 watts of power/work out of this heater, then the above calculations would be correct. Using the resistance calculation will offer you a new wattage rating yet not usually advisable for a unit.

Like hook up a 100 watt light bulb rated for 120 volts in sereis with another. They both get 60 volts and light up but you no longer will get 100 watt output of light/work/power.

This is fun, even if I'm wrong. It makes me think.

WeissBeerGal said:

So you buy a resistive baseboard heater, for example, and it is "rated" at 5500 watts. You have the option of connecting it up to 120 volts or 240 volts. I agree the resistance remains the same - that is why this fixed resistive heater rated for 5500 watts will draw double the current on a lower voltage.

Click to expand...

This is an example of a variable resistance heater load. The above example would have 2 heating elements in it which are wired in series for 240V (double the resistance of a single element) or parallel for 120V (half the resistance of a single element) to achieve the rated 5500W.

Seems to me we are saying the same thing in calculating loads.
For sure, fixed resistance verses variable resistance does make a difference.

So, I guess since I tested this element in my kitchen, and nothing blew in my circuit breaker panel, I am running this element at under 20 amps? I'm not anywhere close to the 45A talked about (hopefully I'm at 11.45 Amps and 1375 Watts)?

This is my math based on the spreadsheet (thanks by the way Bobby_M). 5500W @240V ran at 110V=1155W, 115V=1263W, and 120V=1375W. I wonder what my house voltage really is? I need to buy a voltmeter-thingy for future stuff anyway. I hope I am 120V

I can't wait to build and try out my Thermal Water Stirrer idea and see if it helps eliminate the HLT stir fan. Even at 1155W, heating inside the copper pipe should quickly cause thermals to blow the hot water out the top directionally helping circulation. It is looking like I might have a single extension cord dedicated for my element and a small light. I am trying to build this today . We'll see how finding 2" copper pipe by the foot is in this town.

Jaybird said:

you have to much time on your hands Bobby-M
I see you sitting around in your underware with a homebrew 18 hours a day on HBT LOL is that about right *or is that me*

Click to expand...

Nope, I get paid an insane amount of money for what I actually have to do here at work.

If you don't mind spending a little money you might want to get something like this...the only downfall on this model is that it doesn't have a hall effect CT so you can't measure DC current.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fluke-333-Series-Clamp-Meters-Brand-New-400A_W0QQitemZ220097943155QQcmdZViewItem

WortMonger said:

So, I guess since I tested this element in my kitchen, and nothing blew in my circuit breaker panel, I am running this element at under 20 amps? I'm not anywhere close to the 45A talked about (hopefully I'm at 11.45 Amps and 1375 Watts)?

This is my math based on the spreadsheet (thanks by the way Bobby_M). 5500W @240V ran at 110V=1155W, 115V=1263W, and 120V=1375W. I wonder what my house voltage really is? I need to buy a voltmeter-thingy for future stuff anyway. I hope I am 120V

I can't wait to build and try out my Thermal Water Stirrer idea and see if it helps eliminate the HLT stir fan. Even at 1155W, heating inside the copper pipe should quickly cause thermals to blow the hot water out the top directionally helping circulation. It is looking like I might have a single extension cord dedicated for my element and a small light. I am trying to build this today . We'll see how finding 2" copper pipe by the foot is in this town.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry so much Wortmonger. I have a 4500W element hooked up to 120 and with a march pump running I am at just a little over 11 amps measured with a a meter. Motors tend to run more efficient then their ratings when they are not being worked with a super heavy load. With a magnetic drive that may be difficult, to load the motor that is. Just to clear your mind, if your end resulting load ends up at %80 or less, you won't have to worry about inrush tripping of your breaker. You will be close enough to the 125% NEC recommendation. Keep in mind that this is a minimum. You can reduce the percentage for motor protection. I do not think you are going to have a problem though. So, tinker on. S.

WortMonger said:

. I wonder what my house voltage really is? I need to buy a voltmeter-thingy for future stuff anyway. I hope I am 120V

Click to expand...

Residential voltage is 120/240v +/- 5%. Your calculations will be close enough if you use 120.

Does the Hz make a difference?

If you have a 5500 Watt element at 240 Volts, and you run it on standard US AC power @ 60 Hz - will you still get 5500 Watts if run at 240 Volts @ 50 Hz? I figure volts / amps / watts is all the same, but AC isn't DC.

I'm moving to Japan, and the power there is all 50 Hz, but I would probably get my element from the States (Thanks Uncle Sam and free overseas shipping!).

*sigh* And here I thought I was getting into electric to *save* money - it sure ain't cheaper initally!!!
-keith

Line frequency will only effect motor operation....you will be fine.

When it comes to resistive loads AC and DC are the same.

keithd said:

Does the Hz make a difference?

If you have a 5500 Watt element at 240 Volts, and you run it on standard US AC power @ 60 Hz - will you still get 5500 Watts if run at 240 Volts @ 50 Hz? I figure volts / amps / watts is all the same, but AC isn't DC.

I'm moving to Japan, and the power there is all 50 Hz, but I would probably get my element from the States (Thanks Uncle Sam and free overseas shipping!).

*sigh* And here I thought I was getting into electric to *save* money - it sure ain't cheaper initally!!!
-keith

Click to expand...

youll never see 50 Hz AC here in the states unless youy running a frequency drive. All our power is made at 60Hz

Jaybird said:

youll never see 50 Hz AC here in the states unless youy running a frequency drive. All our power is made at 60Hz

Click to expand...

He said he is moving to Japan...

Although it does matter what side of Japan since one side runs 50 Hz and the other runs 60 Hz

I would like to see pictures of progress if you can sweat it.

Pictures of my progress will always be taken. LOL, first I draw. Then I talk to you guys. Then I do it and take pictures, lol. Last, I talk to you guys and have another project I am interested in. It never ends...... and that is ok by me. Going to do the initial break in of the new brewery this weekend. Not having anything powered except the element. No mash mixer, no HLT mixer, nothing. Going to see how she holds up to a new decoction method for my house ale. Then I will see the true limitations of my temperature control, and if I need any mixers. Oh, and no steam injection yet either. This will be pure step infusion and decoction fraction with a mash out so I can check my viscosity of first run off against the last time I brewed this batch. Can't wait. I am going to Tractor Supply Co. and buying some 35 and 60cc syringes for my yeast banking technique and then I should have the leftover for a big starter of WLP001. Can't wait, simply cannot wait.