I doubt Klinsmann will break up the Yedlin, Cameron, Brooks and Johnson show, so I'd think Pulisic or Graham Zusi is more likely; Zusi is almost a like for like switch for Bedoya, so I might actually put the better odds on him. There is, however, the possibility that they put in Beckerman instead of Nagbe...which I think would be a mistake, but it's unlikely he can go a full 90 either way. Zardes is probably their best option at the far reaches of the top with Dempsey playing underneath, though I think Wondo comes in if a goal is needed.
The [Horribly Unpopular] Soccer Thread
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robdogj
Well-Known Member
Seriously, Zusi to replace Bedoya & Pulisic to replace Wood, but I wouldn't be surprise to see Wondo, the US Inzaghi in there to redeem himself after that horrific miss vs Belgium in Brazil.
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
For me the scary thing is depth. Losing 3 MF/FW is really tough. Assuming we keep the back line (which is my pick) and assuming we don't go highly regressive back line, our bench is Wondo/Pulisic, Beckerman, and Kitchen. Which means for offense we could bring on the one attacking player we didn't sub and Bring on a CDM and push Bradley up the pitch.
This will likely force Jurgen into one of 2 things. Either play a CDM for Jones and push Bradley up putting Nagbe on the bench or out wide, or put Fabian in the MF to replace Zardes (who I think has to start as striker) and Zusi for Bedoya and have Wondo and Pulisic on the bench.
Losing 3 guys sucks. Especially when Wood didn't deserve the second yellow and the only reason he got his first yellow was because of that god awful ref in the Paraguay game who left him out there die and he grew tired of being mauled.
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
Well crap
USMNT 0-4 Argentina, about the result that I would have expected. 1-3 and they should count themselves lucky.
Caveat given the midfield circumstances. 1-3 I'd say more realistic if the USMNT were at full strength.
Giveaways cost them as much as the benchings. Jones was a huge miss but they were horrid across the pitch.
Yedlin's pace was the only bright spot for me this game. Brooks will be something special long term, but I thought that before today.
Oh, I agree. USMNT hasn't exactly been in good form. They're lucky the scoreline is what it is.
Yedlin's pace is phenomenal. He needs some work elsewhere. But my god, that speed.
He needs to learn tactics. Preferably before he ages past his pace.
He plays for Liverpool I think. He gets lots of work there I'd imagine.
I think Bobby Jones is a star up front.
I can't STAND Bradley in the middle. Coach should be canned because of playing Bradley IMO. I don't know that the options were, but not playing Bradley was definitely an option.
That was rough, real rough, like the coarsest grain of sandpaper available rough. That said, anyone thinking team USA would win this was delusional, a few notes.
My God Messi
Look, even on that early, very bad goal, Messi was instrumental, providing a hell of a chip pass. That free kick? Absolutely filthy. Argentina is good all over, but Messi takes them to Messianic (sorry for the pun, I had to do it!) levels. No chance for team USA.
Youth Won't Save Us
A lot of people criticized Klinsmann for not putting in the younger players, I think guys like Pulisic, Nagbe and Birnbaum might very well be excellent players in the future, but a handful of great players won't fix what's wrong with the USMNT; we need a full on top-notch system of development if we want to reach the mountaintop, we need a dozen Pulisics to choose from of varying skill levels, we need two dozen Yedlins or John Brooks. When Pulisic, Birnbaum and Nagbe came in they didn't drastically change the game; though they did have positive contributions. This game is a reminder of where team USA is compared to the very best.
The Transition Will Be Hard
Quite frankly, the transition from bunker and counter to an offensive, possession oriented team will be painful and already has been. Team USA can win with bunker and counter against the best, but in order to improve you need to get away from that. It means losing against teams you're expected to lose against, but winning against most of the teams you're supposed to win against. Hopefully team USA doesn't abandon the idea.
My God Messi
Look, even on that early, very bad goal, Messi was instrumental, providing a hell of a chip pass. That free kick? Absolutely filthy. Argentina is good all over, but Messi takes them to Messianic (sorry for the pun, I had to do it!) levels. No chance for team USA.
Youth Won't Save Us
A lot of people criticized Klinsmann for not putting in the younger players, I think guys like Pulisic, Nagbe and Birnbaum might very well be excellent players in the future, but a handful of great players won't fix what's wrong with the USMNT; we need a full on top-notch system of development if we want to reach the mountaintop, we need a dozen Pulisics to choose from of varying skill levels, we need two dozen Yedlins or John Brooks. When Pulisic, Birnbaum and Nagbe came in they didn't drastically change the game; though they did have positive contributions. This game is a reminder of where team USA is compared to the very best.
The Transition Will Be Hard
Quite frankly, the transition from bunker and counter to an offensive, possession oriented team will be painful and already has been. Team USA can win with bunker and counter against the best, but in order to improve you need to get away from that. It means losing against teams you're expected to lose against, but winning against most of the teams you're supposed to win against. Hopefully team USA doesn't abandon the idea.
Tottenham Hotspur on loan to Sunderland. Rumor has it that Sunderland wants him permanently. I could go either way. I like the kid, but he's not good enough for a Champions League Spurs side even with his speed.
I question whether either Klinsmann or Hodgson are going to survive their respective tournaments. If the USMNT takes 3rd, Jürgen may survive. Same for Roy. But both the US and England have disappointed so far. Sad to say, Klinsmann has a better shot than Hodgson.
Anyone who says Bradley should not play in the middle of the pitch probably needs to expand their thought process as it relates to positional disposition. When you are central your teammates impact your performance more than you do theirs. Your ability to adapt across all aspects of the game sets you apart. Bradley should start every US game. If for no other reason than his tactical acumen and ability to play different roles with different players (deep this tournament but advanced in the diamond with Beckerman at the WC).
He has played in the Premier League, Bundesliga and Serie A. His best replacement has played MLS.
He has played in the Premier League, Bundesliga and Serie A. His best replacement has played MLS.
This. Granted even in that context the US did not show well tonight. The scoreline deserved to be even worse than it was. But I have to remind a bunch of people I know who only pay attention during these moments of that fact. It would have taken a major miracle to beat Argentina even on a good day.
Eh, I'm going to disagree. Klinsmann is going to be safe at least to the 2018 World Cup, barring a spectacular collapse in either the current round of qualifying or the Hex. England is disappointed, though they shouldn't be; England spends lots of cash but they're very small in population, USA has the opposite problem, plus geographic issues.
Allegedly the FA has said that if England doesn't at least make Euro semi-finals, Hodgson will be out. Who knows if that's true (the English press love to make things up).
Otherwise you do have a point.
Well, I thinl of England kind of like Mexico. A big part of the problem is that they change coaches once every year or two; the fact of the matter is that international play moves slower than that. If there isn't a major tournament to play in, most teams play 10 or less games per year, that's less than 1/3rd of club play. Personally, my opinion is that every national team coach should get at least 8 years, that's roughly 80 games or about two pro seasons.
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? USA is going to produce one of their 3 best major competition results. Either equalling 95 Copa and being behind 2009 Confeds (which I think is much easier than Copa) how in any stretch is that disappointing?
Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
This is Roy Hodgson's 3rd major tournament.
What makes you say they are changing coaches once every year or two?
Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
We are too far into the next WC cycle to do anything about Klinsmann.
Let him get through Russia 2018, and then let him decide on his own if he feels he can take the team any further than he already has.
Klinsmann is a great motivator.
Bob Bradley was a good tactician.
Without a perfect combination of the 2, it begs the question, will the US ever really be able to compete with countries where soccer is the primary sport?
Let him get through Russia 2018, and then let him decide on his own if he feels he can take the team any further than he already has.
Klinsmann is a great motivator.
Bob Bradley was a good tactician.
Without a perfect combination of the 2, it begs the question, will the US ever really be able to compete with countries where soccer is the primary sport?
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
I think Jurgen steps down after 2018. I think similar to Germany he's building a long term system in place. When you have the young players starting to pump through the pipelines and actually develop, the coach's job will be much easier. Klinsmann's problem is he's forced to balance where he wants the team with what wins games. He wants the team to be a totally different squad, more proactive, etc. But he doesn't have the players to play that way. He has a few players who can do it. But overall the team is built to bunker and counter. Oddly enough the place where he's set the best is a back line where BRooks and Johnson are 100% in the system. Cameron is about 80% there, launches too many long balls for my liking, Yedlin has a long way to go technically.
And the primary sport thing doesn't matter for the USA. It's a lame excuse. Our failures are because of our youth system. Athletically we have some of the best athletes in the world. You saw Yedlin outrun Messi to the ball. not many players in the world can do that without fouling him. Our problem isn't athletics but technical skill. We can run with many teams out there, but we don't have the system in place to play the game right. I think it's being workd on and the size of the US certainly works against us.
US needs 2 things IMO to take the game to the next level and be a top 10 nation.
1. A youth system that works. And this isn't easy. As I said the US is huge, it's about 30% of the total size of Europe. What happens all too often is players fall through the gap and we fail. What we need is more support from the fans to get more money to the Federation that they can get more people in place. Even if they aren't the best people, just having more people seeing more young players and overseeing the training they go through has to be key. MLS teams need to be more proactive in developing player academies. US has to work on partnerships in it's soccer heavy areas with big European teams. We have to get as many kids playing soccer as possible.
2. We need MLS to keep growing. More money to MLS means more youth recruitment money, better coaches, etc. MLS also needs to play more young players. Klinsmann's criticism that Pulisic wouldn't be playing in MLS is largely true. There are plenty of teams content with playing good players rather than playing young players with strong futures and letting them develop. But I think that comes with time when the fanbase for MLS grows and grows up.
jgarretson
Well-Known Member
We will never be a world power so long as the pay to play youth system is king.
[rant]
My son will be 8 in November. He has played rec soccer in our hometown Castle Rock, CO. He started in the town program at $65 per season. Reasonable fee to pay for field usage, uniform and some minor administration costs. The town program ends at age 6 because they have an agreement with The Colorado Storm club. At U7 you join Storm to play in their rec program. Registration for the same 4v4 program on the same fields with no refs is $165 for an 8 week season. We also have to buy a $50 uniform. That's over $200 for 8 games. Parent volunteer coaches. That's an absurd amount of money. Then you look at Storm's homepage. "We're happy to announce Dave Dir has joined us as director. We're happy to announce Tiffany Milbrett is now on staff. We're happy to announce Preston Burpo is now goalkeeping coach" and on and on it goes. It's a business. How is charging $200+ per very short season in the best interest of developing kids?
Fast forward to U9 and they offer their "pre-competitive" Thunder program. You try out and get placed on a team but it's still essentially a rec program. You may have s paid parent coach or possibly a paid staff coach. Registration for the year is now $800. Their competitive program at U11 jumps $1650 registration plus. $500 uniform kit. You're joking right?
If you look at some the supposed best youth clubs in the country, way too many of them are based in very affluent areas. It's totally backwards. Do you think any of the guys on the Argentina roster played for clubs that cost thousands per year? Hell no.
There are way too many coaches making a ton of money in this country on youth "development" and it will forever stunt our national team. MLS clubs need to continue building their academies where it's not s pay to play scenario. We need kids who grow up with the ball at their feet all year long instead of the 8 week season as mandated by the local soccer deities.
[/rant]
[rant]
My son will be 8 in November. He has played rec soccer in our hometown Castle Rock, CO. He started in the town program at $65 per season. Reasonable fee to pay for field usage, uniform and some minor administration costs. The town program ends at age 6 because they have an agreement with The Colorado Storm club. At U7 you join Storm to play in their rec program. Registration for the same 4v4 program on the same fields with no refs is $165 for an 8 week season. We also have to buy a $50 uniform. That's over $200 for 8 games. Parent volunteer coaches. That's an absurd amount of money. Then you look at Storm's homepage. "We're happy to announce Dave Dir has joined us as director. We're happy to announce Tiffany Milbrett is now on staff. We're happy to announce Preston Burpo is now goalkeeping coach" and on and on it goes. It's a business. How is charging $200+ per very short season in the best interest of developing kids?
Fast forward to U9 and they offer their "pre-competitive" Thunder program. You try out and get placed on a team but it's still essentially a rec program. You may have s paid parent coach or possibly a paid staff coach. Registration for the year is now $800. Their competitive program at U11 jumps $1650 registration plus. $500 uniform kit. You're joking right?
If you look at some the supposed best youth clubs in the country, way too many of them are based in very affluent areas. It's totally backwards. Do you think any of the guys on the Argentina roster played for clubs that cost thousands per year? Hell no.
There are way too many coaches making a ton of money in this country on youth "development" and it will forever stunt our national team. MLS clubs need to continue building their academies where it's not s pay to play scenario. We need kids who grow up with the ball at their feet all year long instead of the 8 week season as mandated by the local soccer deities.
[/rant]
Alcohol. That's what I was talking about. Hah. I was speaking more generally from what I've seen in the recent past than about Copa specifically. But as I've said following at international level is a matter of convenience for me and I typically pay far less attention to USMNT than any of you so I'll readily admit I probably have no clue what I'm talking about and shut my mouth and see myself out. And I'm as guilty as anyone of falling into the fickle crucify the manager mindset anyway
Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
I 100% agree with this.
The youth system, even at the lowest level, is broken and it won't be fixed any time soon. Way too many people are making a ton of money off it as it stands. There are a lot of people out there doing absolutely nothing but hosting tournaments and making a killing.
We paid $95 for my 5 year old son to attend what amounted to 7 practices this spring. It was supposed to be 8, but one got rained out and never re-scheduled. I was a volunteer coach, got no break on the fee, got saddled with a bunch of administrative garbage, and was criticized for not doing extremely stupid drills like "race track". So basically I paid $95 for someone to cut the grass on the donated field. I'm actually surprised they didn't ask me to cut the grass.
At the end of the season, they made a big fuss about the trophy presentation, so all the teams gathered around, eager to get a trophy. At the end, there were no less than 20 kids standing there with no trophy, and the league commish announced it was because their parents didn't pay the $5 trophy fee. WTF. 3 of the kids were from my team, so I handed the guy a $20 & grabbed 3 extra trophies, meant for kids who weren't there that day (they weren't personalized).
Soccer is broken here. Too much money changing hands.
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
Alcohol. That's what I was talking about. Hah. I was speaking more generally from what I've seen in the recent past than about Copa specifically. But as I've said following at international level is a matter of convenience for me and I typically pay far less attention to USMNT than any of you so I'll readily admit I probably have no clue what I'm talking about and shut my mouth and see myself out. And I'm as guilty as anyone of falling into the fickle crucify the manager mindset anyway
Jurgen could have been at risk with a **** showing. Not even necessarily what they did but a quality showing was needed. Getting to the semis was the gaol Jurgen set, which was lofty. He did it.
jgarretson
Well-Known Member
I pressed our league admin on why the season is 8 weeks long in both the fall and spring. Her response is that it is mandated by Colorado Youth Soccer. I did some quick math for her and said you realize my kids are allowed to practice officially for about 30% of the year. Do you think that's good? What if they spent 30% of the year doing math? Think we'd have any engineers? No response to that.
And how does charging these crazy registration fees drive participation?
Hence, we get Michael Bradley, Chris Wondolowski and Kyle Beckerman.
What is promising are the MLS academies. It's interesting to look at for example LA Galaxy's U14 academy team. All Hispanic save for one or two kids. The academy is free and they pick kids based on ability. What a concept. And the kids are amazing players.
And how does charging these crazy registration fees drive participation?
Hence, we get Michael Bradley, Chris Wondolowski and Kyle Beckerman.
What is promising are the MLS academies. It's interesting to look at for example LA Galaxy's U14 academy team. All Hispanic save for one or two kids. The academy is free and they pick kids based on ability. What a concept. And the kids are amazing players.
HoppyDaze
Well-Known Member
Slight exaggeration perhaps, but not by much. If they fire Roy this year he would be sitting at 3 years and a few months, the previous coach (Capello) was the same, and they lasted relatively long. They haven't had a coach go to 4+ major competitions or last for more than one World Cup cycle (aka 4+ years) since Bobby Robson all the way back in 1990. They aren't quite as bad as Mexico, but stability at the coaching position is definitely not their thing.
Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
There is very little coaching stability in international soccer in general, not just England or Mexico. The US are an anomaly in that regard.
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
Not really. Arena is the only coach to stay for 2 WC cycles. Klinsmann will likely be number 2. ANd it's fans are certianly more fickle as they've wanted Klinsmann fired for years.
Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
Not really disagreeing with you. But continuity on the national stage is relatively new for the US. In the 80s the US had 5 coached (including Gansler twice) in the 90s it was 4 coaches. Arena was the first one to break the one cycle trend. Bradley was on his way to it before his truly embarrassing failure vs Mexico (and Klinsmann telling Gulati he wanted to coach)
Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
I always forget that you are completely incapable of talking about soccer without having some sort of contrarian viewpoint or disagreement. The history of US soccer coaches is irrelevant to the context of the discussion.
Talgrath and I were talking about coaching stability in international soccer, which i don't think really exists anywhere, and said that the current US trend of keeping coaches around is an anomaly when compared to the rest of the world.
Talgrath and I were talking about coaching stability in international soccer, which i don't think really exists anywhere, and said that the current US trend of keeping coaches around is an anomaly when compared to the rest of the world.
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
Well you have Jochim Low who's on his 3rd WC Cycle, Del Bosque who's on his 3rd WC cycle, I'm sure there are other examples. US is hardly an anomaly. The stability in the coaching job with the US is new. That was my point.
jgarretson
Well-Known Member
I don't think stability at the international level is important. The teams are together for such a relatively short period and the players can constantly change.
I honestly think it can sometimes make the team stale. Some players never get a look for whatever reason and you never know what gem might be uncovered.
I honestly think it can sometimes make the team stale. Some players never get a look for whatever reason and you never know what gem might be uncovered.
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