Liguid Mal Exract Late Addition...why?

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imaguitargod

imaguitargod

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This has cropped up from time to time and I wanted to know why. Some recipies say to add (for example) 3lbs of dry malt extract and bring to a boil, then as a late addition add 3.75 lbs of liquid malt extract.

Is there some reason that this must be done? I try not to use liquid malt extract (don't quite know why) can I just substatue with dry malt extract and still do the late edition or can I even just skip the late edition and add it right before I boil. Is the late edition to compinsate for lost enzymes or something?

(side question, what's a good "roiling boil" temp? 190 degrees?)
 
In Cleveland a rolling boil is 212+, cranked to the gills and guns blazing. You want as hard a boil as you get to really agitate that wort, break down the proteins and assimilate those alpha acids.

Late addition on Dry or Liquid reduces the caramelization than can occur with extracts. This minimizes the off flavors associated with that.

Yes you can sub Dry for liquid but you want to compensate for the for the different water content by reducing the Dry by ~20%. The only reason not to do this is the expense.
 
Less carmelization of the wort and improved hop utilization. If you do a late extract addition, your hop utilization is about the same as if you did a full volume boil, so you save 20-30% on bittering hops.
 
It's mainly to lighten the color. I've also noticed that heavily caramelized extract changes the flavor of the beer a bit. Just remember to remove the pot from heat when adding LME to avoid scorching.
 
Saccharomyces said:
Less carmelization of the wort and improved hop utilization. If you do a late extract addition, your hop utilization is about the same as if you did a full volume boil, so you save 20-30% on bittering hops.
Click to expand...


Wait, you're saying if I am only boiling 2-3 gallons but just add the LME late then I'll get a higher IBU out of the bittering hops? Is that for real? Does adding DME late make a difference in terms of IBUs?
 
im as new as it gets around here, so im not being a jerk, but if you search late extract addition, a ton of threads will pop up completely explaining everything about the procedure. and dme and lme are the same except 2.75lbs dme = 3.3lbs lme... people seem like like dme more because of less 'twang' and its doesnt have a tendency to carmalize as much....please correct me if i am wrong anybody
 
Wait, you're saying if I am only boiling 2-3 gallons but just add the LME late then I'll get a higher IBU out of the bittering hops? Is that for real? Does adding DME late make a difference in terms of IBUs?
Click to expand...

Yep, and I say this from experience. In two partial mashes I did a while ago, I tried the late extract addition method but did not change the hop schedule. The beers were more bitter that they should've been. In my las batch i did alter the hop schedule with the help of beersmith and the bitterness of that beer was just right!

If you haven't download beersmith, do it, it takes the late extract addition into account when formulating recipes.
 
Eves said:
Wait, you're saying if I am only boiling 2-3 gallons but just add the LME late then I'll get a higher IBU out of the bittering hops? Is that for real? Does adding DME late make a difference in terms of IBUs?
Click to expand...

Yes, Sacc speaks the truth. Hop utilization is a function of time, temperature and wort density. If you only do partial boils of 2-3 gallons and then top-up to your final volume in the fermenter, you will see a marked improvement in hop utilization by adding a portion of the extract at the beginning (to get your starting OG around 1.040) and adding the rest at flameout. You will more effectively isomerize alpha acids at this SG compared to the SG from adding all X lbs of malt extract at the very beginning of the boil.
 
Fantastic. I had no idea. Thanks.


And yes Beersmith is on the list of things to get
 
Eves said:
Wait, you're saying if I am only boiling 2-3 gallons but just add the LME late then I'll get a higher IBU out of the bittering hops? Is that for real? Does adding DME late make a difference in terms of IBUs?
Click to expand...

I brewed an American pale ale recently with only 1 oz. of Cascades for bittering with 1 lb. of DME at the beginning of the boil and 6 lbs. of LME with 5 minuted remaining. The bitterness was surprising to say the least and quite a bit more aggressive than I expected with only 1 oz. low alpha hops for bittering.
 
I do partial mash 2-3 gallon boils and add the extract the last 15 minutes for the reasons mentioned above - better hop utilization due to the lower gravity of the initial boil and a lighter color (depending on the style) from less carmelization. I use DME for my pale and amber/red ales and LME (lower cost) in the styles that clarity and color aren't as big of factors (hefes and stouts).
 
mawa said:
If you haven't download beersmith, do it, it takes the late extract addition into account when formulating recipes.
Click to expand...

I understand that BeerSmith calculates my IBU's differently when I magically check this check box, but there is no instructions in their help, on their web site, blogs etc as to what this really means during the boil.

Does this calculation assume the brewer dumps in 1/2 at the start, 1/2 in the last X minutes? Or is is 15%-25% at the start and the remainder at the end, which the BeerSmith author hints about in a late extract addition article he wrote.

I like this idea because of this 'caramelization/twang' issue everyone speaks of, but at the same time it seems like a non-reproducible recipe and one is just guessing at the final IBU's. Especially trying to measure out LME, what a sticky mess. :(
 
kable said:
I understand that BeerSmith calculates my IBU's differently when I magically check this check box, but there is no instructions in their help, on their web site, blogs etc as to what this really means during the boil.

Does this calculation assume the brewer dumps in 1/2 at the start, 1/2 in the last X minutes? Or is is 15%-25% at the start and the remainder at the end, which the BeerSmith author hints about in a late extract addition article he wrote.

I like this idea because of this 'caramelization/twang' issue everyone speaks of, but at the same time it seems like a non-reproducible recipe and one is just guessing at the final IBU's. Especially trying to measure out LME, what a sticky mess. :(
Click to expand...

In Beersmith, YOU put in the time of the boil. It doesn't assume anything.

For example, in one recipe you put the ingredients in. You put in 2 pounds LME. There is a box under the amount as you enter it that says, "late addition for _____ minutes". If you don't check that box, it goes in for the whole boil. Then you put in 6 pounds of LME and check that box and put in "15" for the late addition boil.

You can break it up however you want. I would put the DME in early, and the LME in last, if I was using both. Or most of the extract late. It's up to you, and you can experiment to see what works best. I would suggest at least breaking up into 1/2 and 1/2, especially with only a 2 gallon boil.
 
Thanks Yooper.

I have owned a copy of BeerSmith for a year but have always had a 1 line ingredient of say, 8lb Briess extra light LME. So when I was looking at this late extract addition it applied to the entire 8lb. Wouldn't have thought to split this into 2 separate ingredients, because I have one big tub of LME. ;>) Makes total sense now though.

So in your opinion, doing extracts, would you do a full boil with everything in it or use this late extract addition method? I assume there is some truth to this 'over caramelization' thing? I have been using LME from Briess because my LHBS goes through it fast and sells it cheap, but I feel some beers are too malty, that shouldn't be?

Does this subject have anything to do with extract twang, or has that been kind of dismissed?

Thanks again.
 
flyangler18 said:
Yes, Sacc speaks the truth. Hop utilization is a function of time, temperature and wort density. If you only do partial boils of 2-3 gallons and then top-up to your final volume in the fermenter, you will see a marked improvement in hop utilization by adding a portion of the extract at the beginning (to get your starting OG around 1.040) and adding the rest at flameout. You will more effectively isomerize alpha acids at this SG compared to the SG from adding all X lbs of malt extract at the very beginning of the boil.
Click to expand...

don't you need to boil the DME or LME for 10-15min for sterilization?
 
Yes, you should for about 10 mins. In the case of the BeerSmith software you specify this time and it is taken into account during its hop bitterness calculation.
 
kable said:
Thanks Yooper.

I have owned a copy of BeerSmith for a year but have always had a 1 line ingredient of say, 8lb Briess extra light LME. So when I was looking at this late extract addition it applied to the entire 8lb. Wouldn't have thought to split this into 2 separate ingredients, because I have one big tub of LME. ;>) Makes total sense now though.

So in your opinion, doing extracts, would you do a full boil with everything in it or use this late extract addition method? I assume there is some truth to this 'over caramelization' thing? I have been using LME from Briess because my LHBS goes through it fast and sells it cheap, but I feel some beers are too malty, that shouldn't be?

Does this subject have anything to do with extract twang, or has that been kind of dismissed?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that "extract twang" has been dismissed, but I do know that I got better results with extract adding it late in the boil.

I don't have a problem with adding it at flame out, but others say to boil it a bit. My experience was that it always stopped the boil and was a PITA to add it at 15 minutes so I added it at flame out. I figured that at flame out temps (210 degrees), the extract would be pasteurized just fine. I had good results with that method.
 
Thanks again.

Last follow up, I promise ;>)
When you were doing your late extract addition, what % of your extract did you add at the start? I have seen a lot of examples of 50%, but others say as little as possible 10%-15%. Just enough to help with the hop isomerization. I have also seen the initial extract being DME and the late LME. What did you do?
Thanks.
 
kable said:
Thanks again.

Last follow up, I promise ;>)
When you were doing your late extract addition, what % of your extract did you add at the start? I have seen a lot of examples of 50%, but others say as little as possible 10%-15%. Just enough to help with the hop isomerization. I have also seen the initial extract being DME and the late LME. What did you do?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

I just put in whatever was convenient, to be honest. Usually about a pound of DME per gallon, though, to get a "set" amount for each time. So, for a three gallon boil, one three pound package of DME was about right.

I am not a fan of LME early in the boil, so I added that late usually.
 
Recently I added my LME at flameout and discovered after I had transferred to my fermenter that a good portion of the LME had not dissolved and was on the bottom of my brew kettle. My O.G. was estimated at 1.076 and what I measured was 1.072, so no big catastrophe, but I would suggest you stir the LME in very well if you add it at flameout.
 
In my Nut Brown that's in primary, I did a Partial Mash, BIAB. I decided to do most of the boil with just the mash/sparge wort, following the hop schedule as the recipe called for (it was originally an AG recipe.)
I added all the DME with 15 minutes left. Incidentally, I hit 1.058 on an expected 1.054.
I'm assuming that the way I did it will compensate for the change from AG to PM, as far as hop utilization goes.

I can't wait to try the finished product!
 

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