zeg
Well-Known Member
I'm not certain whether this is the best forum to post this in, but I'm fairly sure it's a bottling-related problem, so I'll start here...
On my last few batches, I've had an odd off flavor that turns up in only a few bottles. I've not been tracking the incidence rate, but I'd estimate it's somewhere between 1/5 and 1/3 of the bottles that have the problem.
The off flavor doesn't really match any of the descriptions I've seen on the standard beer diagnosis charts, at least not that I remember seeing or that I found in Palmer and a couple other random ones I looked up this evening. It's a bit hard to describe, but it's sort of two things. First is a harsh flavor, maybe a bit bitter or astringent, but not strongly either of those things. (It's certainly not like drinking overbrewed black tea, and I'm very familiar with that.) The second part is a muting of the flavor of the underlying beer. It may just be that it is hidden, but the harshness isn't overpowering, so it's almost like it has just faded. If I really concentrate, I can find some of the flavors, but they don't have any pop.
It's hit a dry stout, an ESB, and a beer based on Yooper's Dead Guy clone. In all cases, aside from low carb in the ESB, the good beers have been really good. The stout had a very strong chocolate finish, the ESB had a pretty nice maltiness, and the Dead Guy clone has a strong raisiny caramelly maltiness to it. Certainly neither the stout nor the Dead Guy clone could be called "subtle" in their malt tones. In the harsh cases, though, it's just not there.
All the beers have tasted very good at bottling---enough that I happily drank the uncarbonated gravity samples and the post-bottling dregs. They carbonated for about 3 weeks untouched, and the ESB and Dead Guy clone went another couple weeks before they were well carbonated, so maybe 5-6 weeks in bottles. I don't recall exactly when the off flavors become evident, ie, whether it comes up before that time or not, and the incidence is rare enough that it'd be hard to be certain. The ESB has now been bottled about 3 months, and still most are good but occasional bottles are bad.
So I'm not sure what to do about this, because it's a bit hard to place. It only strikes some bottles, so I think it has to be bottling related. A few notes on my process:
* Bottles are rescued commercial bottles, most of which have been used a couple times already. They're cleaned by soaking in PBW or Oxyclean (and possibly bleach solution on the stout, I don't recall when I switched over). The soak is either overnight or for an hour or so, and they've all started well-rinsed shortly after they were emptied on the previous use.
* The bottles have been sanitized by using a squirt bottle to spritz a few squirts of saniclean into the bottles. I start with one squirt deep into the bottle, another pulled halfway out to hit the sides of the neck, and another an inch or two above to hit the outside lip and the inside top edge. Each bottle sits 1-2 minutes or more to provide contact time, then is emptied out and filled.
* Bottle caps are squirted with sanitizer as well, and sit at least long enough to fill 6 bottles.
* Filling is done using a spring-loaded bottling wand attached to a bottling spigot. I fill until the beer meniscus is touching the top of the bottle, and leave the headspace created by pulling out the bottling wand. The headspace is indistinguishable from commercially filled bottles.
* Bottling equipment, including siphon hoses, etc, is cleaned after each use by running hot (135-140°F) tap water through everything and sanitizing immediately after use. The spigot and all the hose connections are disconnected or disassembled before cleaning. Before assembling them for use, I sanitize all the individual parts, and then run sanitizer through every hose, siphon, or spigot to be sure.
* I take reasonable care to avoid splashing during siphoning. I boil the priming sugar for 10 minutes or so, then cool slightly and add it to the bucket. Then I siphon on top and let the swirling mix it up. Once filled, I set a lid on top and move the bucket as gently as possible about 50 feet from the garage to the kitchen counter. I do not have any CO2 to do active blanketing, etc.
Anyway, that's a whole lot of info, just trying to give some idea of how I'm doing things. Any ideas about what's going on? I'm sort of assuming by default that it's either some kind of infection or oxidation, but it doesn't have any of the classic characteristics of either. There's no odor at all, and no taste reminiscent of cardboard...
On my last few batches, I've had an odd off flavor that turns up in only a few bottles. I've not been tracking the incidence rate, but I'd estimate it's somewhere between 1/5 and 1/3 of the bottles that have the problem.
The off flavor doesn't really match any of the descriptions I've seen on the standard beer diagnosis charts, at least not that I remember seeing or that I found in Palmer and a couple other random ones I looked up this evening. It's a bit hard to describe, but it's sort of two things. First is a harsh flavor, maybe a bit bitter or astringent, but not strongly either of those things. (It's certainly not like drinking overbrewed black tea, and I'm very familiar with that.) The second part is a muting of the flavor of the underlying beer. It may just be that it is hidden, but the harshness isn't overpowering, so it's almost like it has just faded. If I really concentrate, I can find some of the flavors, but they don't have any pop.
It's hit a dry stout, an ESB, and a beer based on Yooper's Dead Guy clone. In all cases, aside from low carb in the ESB, the good beers have been really good. The stout had a very strong chocolate finish, the ESB had a pretty nice maltiness, and the Dead Guy clone has a strong raisiny caramelly maltiness to it. Certainly neither the stout nor the Dead Guy clone could be called "subtle" in their malt tones. In the harsh cases, though, it's just not there.
All the beers have tasted very good at bottling---enough that I happily drank the uncarbonated gravity samples and the post-bottling dregs. They carbonated for about 3 weeks untouched, and the ESB and Dead Guy clone went another couple weeks before they were well carbonated, so maybe 5-6 weeks in bottles. I don't recall exactly when the off flavors become evident, ie, whether it comes up before that time or not, and the incidence is rare enough that it'd be hard to be certain. The ESB has now been bottled about 3 months, and still most are good but occasional bottles are bad.
So I'm not sure what to do about this, because it's a bit hard to place. It only strikes some bottles, so I think it has to be bottling related. A few notes on my process:
* Bottles are rescued commercial bottles, most of which have been used a couple times already. They're cleaned by soaking in PBW or Oxyclean (and possibly bleach solution on the stout, I don't recall when I switched over). The soak is either overnight or for an hour or so, and they've all started well-rinsed shortly after they were emptied on the previous use.
* The bottles have been sanitized by using a squirt bottle to spritz a few squirts of saniclean into the bottles. I start with one squirt deep into the bottle, another pulled halfway out to hit the sides of the neck, and another an inch or two above to hit the outside lip and the inside top edge. Each bottle sits 1-2 minutes or more to provide contact time, then is emptied out and filled.
* Bottle caps are squirted with sanitizer as well, and sit at least long enough to fill 6 bottles.
* Filling is done using a spring-loaded bottling wand attached to a bottling spigot. I fill until the beer meniscus is touching the top of the bottle, and leave the headspace created by pulling out the bottling wand. The headspace is indistinguishable from commercially filled bottles.
* Bottling equipment, including siphon hoses, etc, is cleaned after each use by running hot (135-140°F) tap water through everything and sanitizing immediately after use. The spigot and all the hose connections are disconnected or disassembled before cleaning. Before assembling them for use, I sanitize all the individual parts, and then run sanitizer through every hose, siphon, or spigot to be sure.
* I take reasonable care to avoid splashing during siphoning. I boil the priming sugar for 10 minutes or so, then cool slightly and add it to the bucket. Then I siphon on top and let the swirling mix it up. Once filled, I set a lid on top and move the bucket as gently as possible about 50 feet from the garage to the kitchen counter. I do not have any CO2 to do active blanketing, etc.
Anyway, that's a whole lot of info, just trying to give some idea of how I'm doing things. Any ideas about what's going on? I'm sort of assuming by default that it's either some kind of infection or oxidation, but it doesn't have any of the classic characteristics of either. There's no odor at all, and no taste reminiscent of cardboard...