Counterflow Chiller Tutorial

I can get it at my local hardware store But I am not sure about all the fittings. It doesent cost that much more than the soft copper. Nice build Bobby

JJ

I just built mine and used if for the first time today. I used 20 feet of the soft copper tubing (couldn't get a 25-foot length for cheap). I built mine exactly like the one described at the start of this post. It worked great. I love it. It is much faster than my immersion chiller. But then of course I had very cold water today (there was ice in the garden hose when I started). It's easy to build if you can solder even just a little bit, but then soldering is not that hard. I had no problem inserting the copper into the rubber hose. It went right in without any lube, water, detergent, whatever. Just try to get the soft copper as straight as possible. It will start to bind if you have any curves.

joejaz said:

The site is legit. That's where I buy my supplies. Bobby can attest to that too. I am going there Saturday and probably going too get the CFC and a banjo burner. Got $200 in gift cerftificates for Xmas & birthday. I would have liked to built one, but with my work schedule, I have a limited amout of time ( put in 60 hrs. last week, truckings sucks). I will post pictures if I get it and if I can figure out how to post pictures. I am trying to get all equipment ready for all grain brewing once weather breaks in the east.

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Picked this up in beginning of week for $70.

How's the efficiency of this thing? A couple things i've been pondering, Bobby, are 1. Using convoluted copper tubing (turns out it's really expensive), or 2. wrapping the inner copper with wire so that it creates more turbulence in the water, and thus cools the wort quicker. Maybe it's not worth the extra effort if it works fine already, but just a thought. It could end up shortening the overall length of coil required.

mrkristofo said:

How's the efficiency of this thing? A couple things i've been pondering, Bobby, are 1. Using convoluted copper tubing (turns out it's really expensive), or 2. wrapping the inner copper with wire so that it creates more turbulence in the water, and thus cools the wort quicker. Maybe it's not worth the extra effort if it works fine already, but just a thought. It could end up shortening the overall length of coil required.

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using the convoluted in my opnion would be a superior build (IMO)and from what B3 sells its like only12 feet or less from what I can see on there sight. but for the cost the 70 dollar one looks like a screemen deal.
I thought the convoluted tubing at my hardware store was 50 bones for a 50 footer turns out it was 150 bones for a 50 footer ouch!!!! and as for wraping the 3/8 soft copper with wire??? the use of the convoluted copper is to swirl the wort no just the chill H2O
JJ

I honestly don't think radial stratification is a problem in a 1/4" ID tube. I would take a wild guess and say that the convoluted would get you maybe one degree F closer to the coolant temp. I don't think it would be worth the effort.

It looks like the Brewer's Apprentice CFC is exactly like mine except someone was scared to sweat the tube to the end fittings and swapped out a compression fitting instead. They used a slightly cheaper garden hose so I'd put their cost somewhere around $40 which means someone is working cheap.

Bobby
I know you said you used rubber hose I was at Lowes yesterday and they have I think it was pollyethylen hose its the clear really thick stuff looks like it has thread or cord wraped in the hose itself its like 1.25 a foot I am wondering if that stuff would be ok to resirc back into the system for brew water not just cleaning water? any ideas
JJ

Well I've used that braid reinforced stuff for hot wort transfer hoses so if it leached anything, I sure didn't know about it. I think they're technically good for up to 180F and it never really gets that hot. I don't see any problem with it. You doing back to back batches where you'd need more water after chilling?

Bobby_M said:

Well I've used that braid reinforced stuff for hot wort transfer hoses so if it leached anything, I sure didn't know about it. I think they're technically good for up to 180F and it never really gets that hot. I don't see any problem with it. You doing back to back batches where you'd need more water after chilling?

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yes.. I do back to back 12-14 gallon batches at the end of my first boil I would be using the water from CFC to run into my HLT for sparging batch 2
I think I am going to design this into my system and get to work on the build. what is the average temp of your runoff water?
JJ

I never put a thermo on the coolant but I know it's "warm" to the touch. If I had to take a guess, I'd say 110-120F based on how fast I run it.

I went to Coppertubingsales.com. Since I was getting 50 ft, here's my plan:

I'll double up a 1/4" copper. You can drill a compression coupling to allow a pass through. I think the major problem will be getting one of the copper lines through a T fitting, though. A "Y" coupler would work best, but I haven seen any at the store.

Anyways, this would deliver a high flow rate than 3/8" and more cooling due to the increased surface area(roughly 1.3x). The hosing should provide enough space to pull this off as well, I imagine.

Bobby_M said:

I never put a thermo on the coolant but I know it's "warm" to the touch. If I had to take a guess, I'd say 110-120F based on how fast I run it.

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that would be killer my system can take 12 gallons of 55 deg water to 190 in 30 min or less so starting at even 100 deg F will sure save me some $$$
also Bobby do you know APROX how much runoff water you use while chilling?
Cheers
JJ

My last batch was 11 finished gallons and I know that it took me exactly 36 gallons of coolant because I was collecting it in buckets and dumping them out. I didn't want to fill up a 50' garden hose and have it freeze on me. It was like 12F outside. It's really going to be dependent on coolant temp and desired output temp. My tap was 39F but I was chilling the wort to 48F "ish" for a lager pitch. I would have run the coolent much slower if I was chilling to ale temps and probably would have used half the coolant water in that case. Sooo many variables ya know.

ClutchDude said:

I went to Coppertubingsales.com. Since I was getting 50 ft, here's my plan:

I'll double up a 1/4" copper. You can drill a compression coupling to allow a pass through. I think the major problem will be getting one of the copper lines through a T fitting, though. A "Y" coupler would work best, but I haven seen any at the store.

Anyways, this would deliver a high flow rate than 3/8" and more cooling due to the increased surface area(roughly 1.3x). The hosing should provide enough space to pull this off as well, I imagine.

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I hate to tell you this but a single 3/8" OD tube has nearly 3x the cross sectional area as two 1/4" OD tubes. That doesn't take into account any added drag.

1/4" has an ID of 3/16" for .028 square inches.
3/8" has an ID of 5/16" for .078 square inches.

I have no doubt that you will be able to fit them doubled up into a hose since the addetive width willl be 1/2" and the hose ID is 5/8". You will need a LOT of lube and patience (sound like a typical Saturday night eh? haha).

In order to have them exit the end fittings, I'd drill a 1/2" cap with two distinct 1/4" holes and run the tubing out of the Tee that way soldering the end cap to both the TEE and 1/4" tubes. Cut the 1/4" tubes nearly flush. Now drill another cap and slide it on so that it backs up right to the other one. Solder that on. Now you start reducing it down to whatever your input/output hose diameter is.

That's a bit more work than I think it was worth given the reduced flow. You could have gotten the 3/8" tubing and made two chillers and sold one.

Good luck.

Bobby_M said:

I hate to tell you this but a single 3/8" OD tube has nearly 3x the cross sectional area as two 1/4" OD tubes. That doesn't take into account any added drag.

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No worries. I'd rather have my rudimentary geometry corrected than erroneously believe my math. I was going off of Circumference, not Area.

So flow rate WILL be lower. on the flip side, your cooling should be much faster.
I suppose that the point is moot, considering that you'll cool so fast, but it'd eliminate any possibility of having to wait for the wort to cool or if your using warmer water source.

I'm referring to OD for circumference, aka copper exterior. Using 1/4" as diameter, you get 0.785" circumference. The 3/8" would be 1.175" circumference. 1.57"vs 1.175"

Ok, in any case the numbers for figuring out flow have to do with crossectional area of the tubing. Area is done by Pi x r^2. Surface area is all about the circumference though (OD x pi x length of tubing. For every 10 feet, 1/4" OD has 94 sqin of surface. For 10' of 3/8, 141 sqin.

The problem is though that even at the flow rates of 3/8" OD tubing, it's extremely efficient. I've never had to slow the flow down intentionally. It comes out anywhere from 4-20F above my tap water temp depending on how fast I run the coolant.

If you've already bought the copper, give it a shot though and see what you get.

Bobby
Thanks for the #'s The build is "on the books" I have a bunch to do build this into tmy system but now I have all the 411 I need. I will have to account for the 30+ gallons of runoff water and have two ball valves so I can collect 12+ gallons and dump the rest.
Cheers
JJ

I am brand new at this so have a lot of questions. :cross:

Planning on making this CFC and am wondering what kind of transfer tubing I will need to gravity feed it from a 1/2" SS Kettle valve with barb ?

Will 1/2" ID themoplastic tubing fit tight enough on the 3/8" OD soft copper tubing of the CFC?

Also I read somewhere that drilling small holes in this transfer tubing will help aerate the wort on the way to the primary. If this is a good idea --- where should these hole be --- right after the kettle valve, just before the primary, both?

Thanks

I have a question. What type of tubing do you use from the kettle to the CFC?
I don't want to have a melted tube halfway through a batch.

If you want to use 1/2" ID tubing between the kettle and CFC, solder a 3/8 x 1/4" copper reducer onto the CFC. The CFC tubing is actually 1/4" nominal and 3/8" nominal has an OD of exactly 1/2". I use reinforced thickwall PVC for my hot transfer but plan to plunk down for the silicone tubing eventually. The thermo plastic is a nice compromise but I don't like that it's opaque.

If you're going to try doing venturi aerating, do it on the output tubing going into the fermenter, not between the kettle and CFC. You don't want to introduce air while the wort is still hot.

Is it clear PVC Tubing?
Where did you find it?

Just built one according to your plans, works great! I have 25' of copper left over, I think I'm just gonna make an immersion filter and sell it... Thanks for the plans, and thanks whoever gave the link to ICS

just wanted to say thanks for this tutorial. i built mine a few weeks ago after a lot of scrounging for parts. its been working great! thanks a lot.

wow, counterflow chillers are fantastic idea's, this is my first time seeing one.

what is forcing the wort from the boiler? gravity?

Gravity works ok, but pumping is more practical.

doesn't it ever get clogged with 3/8's tubing?

I used a pasta strainer when I dumped my wort into my primary, I couldn't believe how much gunk was in there

the large pasta strainer was completely clogged with 1 gallon going through it

I contain my hops in a nylon mesh bag so there's not much sludge going through the coil. I mostly get hot and cold break in the fermenter but none of that tends to clog the chiller.

Made this last night. Super easy.

I assume that this length of CFC would work for larger batches, as well? (seeing that the amount of wort being cooled at one time is the same no matter how large the total batch is.) I am working on a single level one barrel system now (similar to the brutus ten type) and am looking for the most efficient (and cost efficient) chilling method. The Therminator sure looks nice, but the $200 price tag sure doesnt....

sleepystevenson said:

I assume that this length of CFC would work for larger batches, as well? (seeing that the amount of wort being cooled at one time is the same no matter how large the total batch is.) I am working on a single level one barrel system now (similar to the brutus ten type) and am looking for the most efficient (and cost efficient) chilling method. The Therminator sure looks nice, but the $200 price tag sure doesnt....

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That is the beauty of a CFC with a pump, it will cool the wort and fill the fermenter(s) as quickly as the pump will push it. In my case, about 3-4 GPM, or for a 25 gallon batch, 6-7 minutes. That's better than most people can cool a 5 gallon batch with an ice water recirculated immersion chiller.:rockin:

Excellent! Sounds like another project to add to the list! Thanks Bobby!

Just made my frame for the 1 barrel brew rig today...I will start a thread and post some pics when I get a chance.

5 IS NOT ENOUGH: You must be pretty close to me - I am in the Sharon / Hermitage area

I have 50' of copper and hose....hould I make one big CFC or 2 25' CFC's?

I think 25' is borderline overkill and I'm positive 50' would be. Make two, sell one.

Bobby_M said:

I think 25' is borderline overkill and I'm positive 50' would be. Make two, sell one.

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...but overkill is my #1 favorite word and way of doing things!

Think about all that wort inside the tube. Not a problem if you gravity feed but pumping will leave like a gallon inside the 50' tubing.

Bobby_M said:

Think about all that wort inside the tube. Not a problem if you gravity feed but pumping will leave like a gallon inside the 50' tubing.

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It would be gravity fed.....but just a second ago I got an idea which was to make a 30' CFC, a 15' prechiller (for those just in case moments maybe this summer), and leftovers to make a new manifold in my MLT.

I'm like a broken record about it around here but prechillers are a waste of copper. If you're already commiting to having a container of icewater laying around, pump it into the CFC directly. Prechillers, especially a 15' one, will only drop your coolant water down a few degrees.

If you make an extra CFC and sell it, you can take that money and buy a decent submerssible pump. Just IMHO.

Bobby_M said:

I'm like a broken record about it around here but prechillers are a waste of copper. If you're already commiting to having a container of icewater laying around, pump it into the CFC directly. Prechillers, especially a 15' one, will only drop your coolant water down a few degrees.

If you make an extra CFC and sell it, you can take that money and buy a decent submerssible pump. Just IMHO.

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Only because of your manificent YouTube video about the IC, will I take your words as one of the DIY Lords

I'll make 2 CFC's

I'm not saying I'm an authority on chilling by any means, I just tried using my old IC as a prechiller once and had less than stellar results and after bumping this theory up against a bunch of other people here, they found similar things and converted to icewater pumping.

Bobby_M said:

I'm not saying I'm an authority on chilling by any means, I just tried using my old IC as a prechiller once and had less than stellar results and after bumping this theory up against a bunch of other people here, they found similar things and converted to icewater pumping.

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no I know, I just wanted to make a mondo CFC...but it sounds like I should just make two, and sell one to a local HBT buddy