Moving bottles after capping. Oxidation risk?

So after opening an amber ale that has been in the bottle for 17 days and tasting wet cardboard, I'm beginning to scrutinize my process.

This was my 10th batch and the first time I've gotten oxidation off-flavors in under 8 months or so. I ferment in a chest freezer and I opened the bucket three times. Twice to check gravity and once to add gelatin. I carefully siphon to my bottling bucket on top of the corn sugar mixture to mix (no stirring) and then use a bottling wand to fill each bottle.

Note: I removed the airlock and placed some sanitized Saran Wrap over the hole to cold crash for two days prior to gelatin.

Here's where I'm guessing my problem may lie (tell me if I'm wrong) -- after capping the bottles, I load them into my car, drive twenty minutes to my apartment and put them away in a closet to condition for 2-3 weeks at 70 degrees. Is the likely sloshing around in the bottles with that bit of capped-in oxygen my culprit? This never occurred to me as a problem until this batch.

The amount of headspace in the bottle doesn't amount to much so it's not likely to be that, plus when you fill the bottle with the bottling wand, you should fill to the top which displaces the air in the bottle. Then you cap immediately, or close to it, I assume.

Much more likely is having a bucket with a very wide headspace for a fermenter. Over the course of three weeks, opening it means that it has a very wide headspace and no new c02 is generated to displace the room air in it. Did you stir in the gelatin? If so, that would make it worse but even without stirring that means that the headspace in your fermenter is 100% room air, with plenty of oxygen.

If you want to do a fairly long time in the bucket (more than 10 days or so), that's fine but make sure that once fermentation slows the bucket is not opened.

Yooper said:

The amount of headspace in the bottle doesn't amount to much so it's not likely to be that, plus when you fill the bottle with the bottling wand, you should fill to the top which displaces the air in the bottle. Then you cap immediately, or close to it, I assume.

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Ah, I do fill it to the top -- hadn't thought about that. I typically fill 3-5 bottles at a time and then cap them and proceed with the rest. I didn't stir the gelatin in.

I guess I just exposed it to too much air. My current batch is in my glass carboy (i just missed seeing the beer, honestly), so it will have way less air exposure and it's going into a CO2 purged keg next. I'm just kind of stumped by this batch.

I'm going to crack open that fourth bottle tonight and see if it's any different. If it isn't, I'll give them all a week just to rule out the possibility that I don't know what I'm tasting. If they're bad in another week then I guess its a cheap lesson to learn.

Thanks Yooper!

Yooper said:

The amount of headspace in the bottle doesn't amount to much so it's not likely to be that, plus when you fill the bottle with the bottling wand, you should fill to the top which displaces the air in the bottle. Then you cap immediately, or close to it, I assume.

Much more likely is having a bucket with a very wide headspace for a fermenter. Over the course of three weeks, opening it means that it has a very wide headspace and no new c02 is generated to displace the room air in it. Did you stir in the gelatin? If so, that would make it worse but even without stirring that means that the headspace in your fermenter is 100% room air, with plenty of oxygen.

If you want to do a fairly long time in the bucket (more than 10 days or so), that's fine but make sure that once fermentation slows the bucket is not opened.

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How is one supposed to take gravity readings or dry hop without opening the bucket?

mdbrewer1 said:

How is one supposed to take gravity readings or dry hop without opening the bucket?

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How many readings does one take before risking more oxidation? That I can't say, but I do know that anytime you open the bucket you are risking some, once fermentation has slowed.

I also dryhop in a bucket often, but it's usually done with a quick addition as fermentation has slowed, and immediately covered back up. If multiple readings are taken, and the beer is in there a lengthy period of time, the risk of oxidation happening sooner would be greater. The longer the beer sits in the bucket with a wide headspace, the more risk of oxidation by opening the bucket multiple times.

I don't bottle very often anymore, so when I do open the lid of the bucket, it's to stick a racking cane in there to get it to the keg, but it wouldn't hurt to transfer under c02 to ensure less risk of oxidation.

Yooper said:

How many readings does one take before risking more oxidation? That I can't say, but I do know that anytime you open the bucket you are risking some, once fermentation has slowed.

I also dryhop in a bucket often, but it's usually done with a quick addition as fermentation has slowed, and immediately covered back up. If multiple readings are taken, and the beer is in there a lengthy period of time, the risk of oxidation happening sooner would be greater. The longer the beer sits in the bucket with a wide headspace, the more risk of oxidation by opening the bucket multiple times.

I don't bottle very often anymore, so when I do open the lid of the bucket, it's to stick a racking cane in there to get it to the keg, but it wouldn't hurt to transfer under c02 to ensure less risk of oxidation.

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The rule I've followed is two readings, a couple days apart, to ensure fermentation is complete. I'm still fairly new, but I've never noticed any oxidation flavor in any of my batches so far. Perhaps the taste is there for my experienced drinkers, but I've never received any feedback to that effect either. :shrug:

How are you transferring your beer? When you rack from fermenter to bottling bucket, is it a nice controlled gentile siphon, or is there splashing? Are you racking onto your bottling sugar, or adding it afterwards? Stirring the sugar in while it's in the bottling bucket?

I found that when using a siphon and a bottling wand, that the headspace in a 12oz bottle is enough to give me the cardboard flavor. However, the same batch in a 32oz bottle tastes fine (same amount of headspace, but proportionally less so). Ive been using the EZ cap swingtops. Try mixing in a couple larger bottles if you can on your next batch and then do a taste comparison after a few weeks.
I've since switched to bottling from the keg where I intentionally include a bit of foam in order to purge the headspace and have had no more (noticeable to me) oxidation issues regardless of bottle size.

The_Bishop said:

How are you transferring your beer? When you rack from fermenter to bottling bucket, is it a nice controlled gentile siphon, or is there splashing? Are you racking onto your bottling sugar, or adding it afterwards? Stirring the sugar in while it's in the bottling bucket?

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I put the sugar solution in the bottling bucket and then rack on top of it with an auto-siphon and I make sure there are no air pockets or bubbles. It seems unlikely to me that this is where I added oxygen.

MrFancyPlants said:

I found that when using a siphon and a bottling wand, that the headspace in a 12oz bottle is enough to give me the cardboard flavor. However, the same batch in a 32oz bottle tastes fine (same amount of headspace, but proportionally less so). Ive been using the EZ cap swingtops. Try mixing in a couple larger bottles if you can on your next batch and then do a taste comparison after a few weeks.
I've since switched to bottling from the keg where I intentionally include a bit of foam in order to purge the headspace and have had no more (noticeable to me) oxidation issues regardless of bottle size.

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I actually did bottle 4-5 32oz bottles. I'll toss one in the fridge right now and try it in a bit to see if the oxidation is present. If I can't taste it in that one, then I think it is safe to say that my 20-minute commute is part of the problem.

chexjc said:

... then I think it is safe to say that my 20-minute commute is part of the problem.

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Well I didn't quite say that.. I think that the headspace could be the source of your oxidation, but even if you keep the bottles still, the air will probably get into the beer.

Report back on the 32oz taste though. I've heard a couple complaints of this happening and it would be interesting to validate the theory.

MrFancyPlants said:

I think that the headspace could be the source of your oxidation, but even if you keep the bottles still, the air will probably get into the beer.

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Do you mean the headspace in the fermenter or bottles? If it were the headspace in the bucket, the oxidation flavor would be in both sizes of bottles, right?

Headspace in the bottle is what I meant.

Update -- the bombers are oxidized too

I think it was simply a combination of opening the lid too many times when combined with the overly-rapid and airlock-absent cold crashing. I'm just going to be more careful in the future. I'll give this beer another week for the hell of it and dump it after that.

MrFancyPlants said:

Headspace in the bottle is what I meant.

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This is *highly* unlikely. Hundreds, if not thousands of homebrewers bottle condition and have no oxidation issues as long as their procedure is sound.

One more thought I should add...I think I have a bad seal on my bucket. Because I ferment away from home, I can't pay too close attention, but I never saw any airlock activity, leading me to believe CO2 was coming out elsewhere. No big deal during the first 5-7 days, right? But what if it sat for 17 days with a bad seal? That would do it, right?

Since i use a BB, i end up have to tape the bung down as well, otherwise it loosens up a little. in the future tape the bung down (if that is what u are using, then wrap the opening with the bung in it when u cold crash. im by no means an expert, but i am guessing that the cold crash is when air infiltrated.

chexjc said:

One more thought I should add...I think I have a bad seal on my bucket. Because I ferment away from home, I can't pay too close attention, but I never saw any airlock activity, leading me to believe CO2 was coming out elsewhere. No big deal during the first 5-7 days, right? But what if it sat for 17 days with a bad seal? That would do it, right?

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This is much more likely the source of oxidation that the bottles (also accounts for why all of the beer is oxidized). If you have a bad seal and saw no airlock activity, you likely have a decently sized leak. During a temperature drop the gas in the head space will contract, sucking in air from the outside.

Not to dig this thread out of its grave, but I wanted to give a little update. I mentioned my struggles with oxidation to my LHBS owner and he encouraged me to bring a bottle in for him to try. So I did...and he said there is NO detectable oxidation or infection. Huh...

He even thought some people would love it. I think it tastes horrible, but maybe there's just something in either the Amber LME or Munich LME that just doesn't sit right on my palate. I'm no longer certain that I know what oxidation tastes like in beer, but I know its a familiar off-flavor to me. Maybe it's just an extreme case of extract twang. Who knows. I feel sort of relieved that there isn't anything horribly wrong with m process.