HELP! First batch tastes like water?!!!

Brewer's Friend 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
D

db16gawingshot

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Greetings,
I want to thank everyone in advance for any help/insight that you might give. I am new to this forum, in fact this is my first post.

My brewing buddy and I did our first all grain a month and a half ago. We have been home-brewing for about a year and are very careful to read and study before doing anything. We had several very successful partial grain brews before making the step to all grain. We used the following:

5 lbs Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (1.5 SRM)
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
1 lbs Caravienne Malt (24.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (22.0 SRM)
1.0 oz Roasted Barley (675.0 SRM)
1.00 oz Cluster [7.20%] (60 min)
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50%] (15 min)
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50%] (Dry Hopped in Keg)
0.15 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 45.0 min)
Yeast: California Ale with 3 days for culture before pitching

We cracked our grain using a mill. We heated the tun with boiling water prior to mash. We used 3 gallons of water at 171 degrees and mashed for 1 hour. We did a single stage batch sparge with 168 degree water (4 gallons). We did our boil and our wort OG measured 1.052. Fermintation seemed to go well and at day 8 we transfered to our keg at a 1.011 SG. To the keg we added 1 oz of Fuggles that had been boiled in a hop bag for 15 min.

After waiting 6 weeks or so, we tapped the keg and we were very disappointed and perplexed. Our brew tasted like water with a little hop flavor. My question is, WHAT HAPPENED?

We did not test the wort with iodine, but we assumed (which might have been a mistake) that with a SG reading of 1.052 that we had the fermintable sugars that we needed. We also used our tap water, but we have done that with our partials in the past and it has not been an issue. We also did the dry hopping on this batch, which is something that we had not done before but I don't really think that is our problem either. Additionally, we used 6-row malt not 2-row because that is what we had on hand.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. We are newbies, but we have loved what we have done so far; it is our hope that we can advance to all grain (but if this brew is any indication, then we might be out of our league).

I (we) appreciate any insight/knowledge/help that you all are willing give. Thanks (again) in advance.
Regards,
TC
 
what temp did you take the gravity reading at? A SG of 1.051 means that you extracted a good amount of sugars from the wort. If your crush sucked you would have gotten a lower SG so im guessing its not that. By my calculations you should have abeer with 5.4% ABV so it shouldnt taste like water. What temp did you mash at, 171 or was that the temp of your strike water?

edit: If you took a hydro reading above 60deg, then your starting gravity would be way way off leading to a much lower "true" gravity reading
 
The gravity readings were take at approx. 70 degrees which is typically the temp that we take the reading at. The 171 was the strike temperature and we mashed in an Igloo cooler. Like you, our calculations show that we have brew that has a 5%+ ABV, but the brew seems "light" (meaning no mouth feel at all) and the tastes is very similar to the tap water used. We have several other all grains that we want to do, but we need to figure out what went wrong with this one first. I knew that there are many folks on this site that are smarter with a lot more experence than us, so I thought this was the place to go.

Do you think that our SG reading at 70 degrees was that far off? We have always done our readings with the paritals at that temp and they didn't turn out this poorly.

Thanks for the help!
 
no that means your SG was actually a pt higher. Not enough to throw it off that much.

you said you used 6-row but i dont see it in your recipe?

The munich malt should have added some nice maltiness....honestly i dont know. How much wort did have when you started fermentation and also are you sure you had an acurate hydro reading? Put it in water at 60 degrees and make sure your reading 1.000 SG.
 
From my calculations something is off. From my Beersmith (at 75% efficiency) estimated the OG 1.021. I am not sure that was enough grains.


<EDIT> (I didn't see the part about 6 row/2 row... how much did you use)

Just wondering why did you wait 3 days to pitch?
 
I just checked the reading; it is a little less (<0.002) than 1.000 at 68 degrees (what my tap water temperature is).

The 6-row was not in the recipe, but it is what we had to work with. Would that effect it greatly?
 
From my calculations something is off. From my Beersmith (at 75% efficiency) estimated the OG 1.021. I am not sure that was enough grains.
Our efficiency (from prior tests) showed that we were getting around 85% conversion from our set-up. Even at 75% we should have had 1.045 by my calculations.


<EDIT> (I didn't see the part about 6 row/2 row... how much did you use)
From what we can tell, most (if not all) was 6-row. Some of the grain did not specify but since we got it all from the same place I assume it is all 6-row.

Just wondering why did you wait 3 days to pitch?
We didn't wait 3 days to pitch, we used a yeast that was cultured for 3 days. We cultured the yeast for 3 days, then pitch it at 70 degrees on the day we boiled.
 
6-row is a base grain. If the ingredients in your list are all that you used, you didn't use 6-row. It looks to me like you didn't have any grains with enzymes sufficient to convert all your sugars. You probably needed at least 5 lbs of 2 row or something similar in there to give your brew a boost.
 
Chris_Dog said:
From my calculations something is off. From my Beersmith (at 75% efficiency) estimated the OG 1.021. I am not sure that was enough grains.
Click to expand...

From my calculations, your calculations are off. BeerSmith puts it at 1.046 with 75% effeciency. But you used no base malt, and may have had a very high mash temp. Also, there is nothing that is made from 6-row in that recipe.

Did you check the temp during the mash, or pour in 171 strike water and forget about it?
 
I ran those grains through Beer Tools pro and you'd have needed to get 90% efficiency to get 1.050 out of that mix. With a single batch sparge it seems unlikey (to me anyway) that you could have coaxed 90% out of that. Are you positive of your measurements?

Where did the recipe come from? That's a lot of crystal and carapils against 5# of Munich.
 
Sounds to me like you used an unmodified malt and not enough of it. 6-row has less diastatic power than 2-row which means it doesn't break up the starches as readily as 2 row does. In order for 6-row to measure up, you could either add a small amount of amylase enzyme (not really recommended) or do a decoction mash to free up the starches and allow for more conversion. Another thing that can be done is to have at least 33% of your grist be 2-row and the rest be 6-row. The 2-row has diastatic power to spare and will contribute to the 6-row making full conversion easier without the further addition of enzymes or decoction. It's also possible that your mash was too high. Did you monitor your mash temps throughout the mash?
 
BarleyWater said:
Chris_Dog said:
From my calculations something is off. From my Beersmith (at 75% efficiency) estimated the OG 1.021. I am not sure that was enough grains.QUOTE]

From my calculations, your calculations are off. BeerSmith puts it at 1.046 with 75% effeciency. But you used no base malt, and may have had a very high mash temp. Also, there is nothing that is made from 6-row in that recipe.

Did you check the temp during the mash, or pour in 171 strike water and forget about it?
Click to expand...


You are right I had it set for 10.5 gal...

Still at 5 gal it only came up to 1.047 at 90%
Click to expand...
 
maybe it was less than a 5 gal batch? how much did you have after the boil? And munich can be used as 100% of the grist to my knowledge, but if it didint have enough extra enzymes to convert the sugars in the rest of the grist would that still result in a high OG?
 
scinerd3000 said:
maybe it was less than a 5 gal batch? how much did you have after the boil? And munich can be used as 100% of the grist to my knowledge, but if it didint have enough extra enzymes to convert the sugars in the rest of the grist would that still result in a high OG?
Click to expand...

However he said the FG was 1.011
 
then how did he get 1.051 Original Gravity? thats where im stumped unless that number was off....
 
I'm scratching my head- I think your OG is way off. Where those maybe the first runnings? I only see 5 pounds of malt that you used- the rest are specialty grains. Munich is a nice base malt, but 5 pounds in 5 gallons is extremely light. You used 5 pounds of base malt, and around 3 pounds of crystal. You mentioned using six row malt, but I don't see where. If you did use some (or was it the Munich), maybe it'd be better.

I know that if you had 90% efficiency, it's possible to get a pretty decent OG, but if I did this recipe at my house on my equipment, I'd get an OG of maybe 1.042 at the most. And using only 5 pounds of base malt will not give you much in the way of flavor.

I think your recipe is to blame for the flavorless beer you have here.
 
it may not be to strong but certainly shouldnt taste like water either. perhapse the anti-christ turned your beer into water???
 
eddie said:
Sounds to me like you used an unmodified malt and not enough of it. 6-row has less diastatic power than 2-row which means it doesn't break up the starches as readily as 2 row does. In order for 6-row to measure up, you could either add a small amount of amylase enzyme (not really recommended) or do a decoction mash to free up the starches and allow for more conversion. Another thing that can be done is to have at least 33% of your grist be 2-row and the rest be 6-row. The 2-row has diastatic power to spare and will contribute to the 6-row making full conversion easier without the further addition of enzymes or decoction. It's also possible that your mash was too high. Did you monitor your mash temps throughout the mash?
Click to expand...

Actually, that's not correct. 6-row has MORE diastatic power than 2-row, so it's useful when using undermodified malts. It tastes grainy, though, and not very good alone in a beer. That's why most brewers use 2-row, but when you have alot of adjuncts, then some 6-row can help them convert.
 
im still puzzled....so can you taste alcohol in your beer? does it have alot or a little?
 
Did you check the temp during the mash, or pour in 171 strike water and forget about it?
We just poured 171 degree water in and forgot about it.

Are final volume was less than 5 gallons, more like 3.5.

The crystal malt that we bought has written on the package, Briess 6-row Crystal Malt. So I assumed it was 6-row. Once again, we are new to this and are apparently making many mistakes.

I think your recipe is to blame for the flavorless beer you have here.
We just made the recipe up, so maybe that is our problem. What should we have done? Any thoughts as to how to turn this around for the next batch? I am reading a lot of you saying that the amount of base (which I am assuming Munich is a base) was not enough. How much should we have used? Are we trying to get to "fancy" or "complex" with the other grains?

I really appreciate your help. Thanks.
 
scinerd3000 said:
im still puzzled....so can you taste alcohol in your beer? does it have alot or a little?
Click to expand...
I guess I don't know how to answer that qustion. It does taste like there is alcohol in the beer, but I don't know how much. The taste is "watery", meaning no malty flavor, no "mouth-feel". I wish I could send you some, that might help you, help me!:eek:

Others on this post have said that the recipe could be to blame. Any suggestions as to how to change it?
 
db16gawingshot said:
Others on this post have said that the recipe could be to blame. Any suggestions as to how to change it?
Click to expand...
As far as recipes go, I think it would be best to use a tried and true recipe for your beginning forays into all-grain. There are a number of great recipes developed by members of this forum that are ideal for new all-grain brewers. A couple that come to mind are EdWort's Haus Pale Ale and BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde. Pick a recipe with a simple grain bill and hop schedule, that way you can focus on hitting your target temperatures, volumes, etc., while dialing in your process.
 
ISUBrew79 said:
As far as recipes go, I think it would be best to use a tried and true recipe for your beginning forays into all-grain. There are a number of great recipes developed by members of this forum that are ideal for new all-grain brewers. A couple that come to mind are EdWort's Haus Pale Ale and BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde. Pick a recipe with a simple grain bill and hop schedule, that way you can focus on hitting your target temperatures, volumes, etc., while dialing in your process.
Click to expand...


I agree... make some tried and true recipes until you get your own system dialed in. It will be much easier to troubleshoot.
 
Why did you boil the dry hops for 15 minutes? Next time just throw them in the keg. By boiling them you defeat the purpose of dry hopping.

I'd try a simple recipe, 10lbs pale malt and a lbs or so of crystal, single step mash for 1 hour. Hop at 60 15 and dry hop.
 
Ah- thanks for the explanation on the 6-row. The confusion comes in from you mentioning 6-row, but it's not in your recipe. Now I understand why! Your crystal is made from 6-row malt. That's fine- but it's still crystal malt.

As far as recipe formulation, you have way, way too much crystal malts (which provide flavor and sweetness) with way too little base malt. 5 pounds of Munich malt just isn't enough. Secondly, pouring it 171 degree water and then not checking the temperature isn't going to work- your mash might have been at 162 or so which would denature the enzymes you need for conversion. Temperature control and exact temps are crucial for mashing. So, you have 3 pounds of crystal malt in a 3.5 gallon batch? I'm surprised it's not sweet.

How big is your brewpot? You'll need to boil around 6.5 gallons of wort for a 5 gallon batch, so you'll need something at least 30 quarts (at the minimum). How do you chill your wort? You may need a wort chiller, to get your wort properly chilled with a good cold break.

I suggest reading the all-grain section on howtobrew.com. Here: How to Brew - By John Palmer - Brewing Your First All-Grain Beer
 
I would second what Yooper stated and add the following condition to not checking the mash temp:

If the temp dropped really low you may have rendered a very fermentable and thin bodied wort regardless of how much grain you used. Having not checked the mash temp you eliminated one of the most crucial parts of all-grain brewing. I would say that you may have done exactly this if your beer tastes like water yet your gravity readings were correct.

Grab a tried and true recipe and brew exactly as stated. Read How To Brew and then read it again and again. It is awesome.
 
db16gawingshot said:
Did you check the temp during the mash, or pour in 171 strike water and forget about it?
We just poured 171 degree water in and forgot about it.

Are final volume was less than 5 gallons, more like 3.5.

The crystal malt that we bought has written on the package, Briess 6-row Crystal Malt. So I assumed it was 6-row. Once again, we are new to this and are apparently making many mistakes.

I think your recipe is to blame for the flavorless beer you have here.
We just made the recipe up, so maybe that is our problem. What should we have done? Any thoughts as to how to turn this around for the next batch? I am reading a lot of you saying that the amount of base (which I am assuming Munich is a base) was not enough. How much should we have used? Are we trying to get to "fancy" or "complex" with the other grains?

I really appreciate your help. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Another question is how to turn this around for the current batch. I made the exact same problem a few batches ago - tasted like very weak beer out of the keg - the answer I came up with - drop 2 oz of dry hop into the keg(in a muslin bag), let it sit until it went from hop tea taste to dry hopped beer taste, and enjoy. It ended up being one of my favorite beers of the summer. If you have bottled your beer, maybe try pouring the beer over some hop flowers (through a strainer) into a glass?

In the future, you may want to check out the ed wort recipes. A lot of people on this site have had extremely good luck with them. The Haus Ale is a very simple (and cheap!) recipe to brew.
 
If you want to create your own recipes, scale up or down, check measurements, etc I would also recommend investing in some brewing software... for ~$20 it will be one of your best investments. Had you punched your setup, ingredients, etc in to Beersmith for example, it would have given you proper strike water temp, volumes, mash out temps, etc. as well as told you if your fermentables were adequate to style.
 

Similar threads

B
Amber Ale with flavor gaps??
Replies
10
Views
1K
Miraculix
Miraculix
PashMaddle
Brew day #2 is done.
Replies
22
Views
1K
lumpher
lumpher
Zippy123
Feedback on recipe to split mash for two different beers
Replies
2
Views
427
Zippy123
Zippy123
F
Advice on developing clone of Mast Landing "Windbreaker" NEIPA?
Replies
4
Views
671
poptarts
poptarts
F
help me design my next kolsch
Replies
10
Views
449
fluketamer
F
Williams Brewing 300

Latest posts

Back
Top