I have a 1 gallon cyser going where I added a yeast ball - will update on how it turns out.
Making Traditional rice Wine. Cheap, Fun, and Different
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I have a 1 gallon cyser going where I added a yeast ball - will update on how it turns out.
Add rice and enzyme in proportion. Have done it. SOP in some processes.
Hi everyone. Awesome thread thanks sonofgrok and saramc.
I've just started a (first time making rice wine) batch 2 days ago. This morning I perked inside and saw white mold. I assume that is ok? The rice looked dry to me. I layered the rice with red rice yeast and the top layer with 2 round rice yeast.
Am I doing anything wrong? Thanks in anticipation.
I've just started a (first time making rice wine) batch 2 days ago. This morning I perked inside and saw white mold. I assume that is ok? The rice looked dry to me. I layered the rice with red rice yeast and the top layer with 2 round rice yeast.
Am I doing anything wrong? Thanks in anticipation.
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Davedrinksbeer
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Your fine, that’s what it does. White Mold grows on the rice, it eats up the rice and makes Sake/Rice Wine.
In general, everything should be submerged, or at least very damp. Stirring and/or sanitized water is in order. A lot like pickle-making.
monkeymath
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Wow, this thread has been going strong for a while now!
I actually bought Koji spores (for making miso and shoyu) and thought about using them for a wine-rice hybrid beverage, replacing the rice by a regionally produced grain. Pearl barley or spelt seem to resemble polished rice in that they had their husks removed (in "The Noma guide to fermentation", pearl barley is also the base grain used for Koji and derived products). I currently have a beer fermenting using the Westmalle strain, which is quite alcohol-tolerant (up to 12%).
I'm thinking of steaming some pearl barley, mixing in some Koji spores and a bit of my harvested yeast Belgian yeast. Has anyone attempted something like this? I'm kind of at a loss as to the right quantities and proportions...
Moreover, my yeast certainly cannot take the full strength of the rice brew, so I'd have to dilute with some water. I guess that the initial "dry" phase of the ferment is important to provide oxygen for the Koji spores? So I'd have to start dry and then add water maybe two days in, so that the Koji had a chance to get hold and my yeast has not yet died of alcohol...?
I'd appreciate any pointers (and apologize if I could not find any hidden in the hundreds of previous posts....)!
Cheers,
Daniel
I actually bought Koji spores (for making miso and shoyu) and thought about using them for a wine-rice hybrid beverage, replacing the rice by a regionally produced grain. Pearl barley or spelt seem to resemble polished rice in that they had their husks removed (in "The Noma guide to fermentation", pearl barley is also the base grain used for Koji and derived products). I currently have a beer fermenting using the Westmalle strain, which is quite alcohol-tolerant (up to 12%).
I'm thinking of steaming some pearl barley, mixing in some Koji spores and a bit of my harvested yeast Belgian yeast. Has anyone attempted something like this? I'm kind of at a loss as to the right quantities and proportions...
Moreover, my yeast certainly cannot take the full strength of the rice brew, so I'd have to dilute with some water. I guess that the initial "dry" phase of the ferment is important to provide oxygen for the Koji spores? So I'd have to start dry and then add water maybe two days in, so that the Koji had a chance to get hold and my yeast has not yet died of alcohol...?
I'd appreciate any pointers (and apologize if I could not find any hidden in the hundreds of previous posts....)!
Cheers,
Daniel
Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
Have been slowly making my way through this entire thread. Don't miss the first 20 pages if you haven't read them -- sonofgrok, sarahmc, leadgolem, and aropolis have answered many of the questions I see in more recent posts.
That said, I've only gotten through about 50 pages, so if this question WAS answered later, apologies. But since I haven't seen it so far, I think I found out why some people had "acetone" like odors.
Apparently, as so many guessed, there is a lot of variation in the yeast balls. And certain strains of yeast will produce solvent-like odors. See this quote from Yeast Experiment:
This writer decided to add the desired yeast strain in hopes that it would overcome any of the other yeasts present.
They added Lalvin wine yeast ICV D47 to one batch, Safale US-09 Dry Ale yeast (Fermentis) to a second batch, and Safbrew S-33 Dry Brewing yeast (Fermentis) to a third batch. All three came out without solvent odors, and the Lalvin wine yeast apparently produced the best flavor.
That said, I've only gotten through about 50 pages, so if this question WAS answered later, apologies. But since I haven't seen it so far, I think I found out why some people had "acetone" like odors.
Apparently, as so many guessed, there is a lot of variation in the yeast balls. And certain strains of yeast will produce solvent-like odors. See this quote from Yeast Experiment:
This writer decided to add the desired yeast strain in hopes that it would overcome any of the other yeasts present.
They added Lalvin wine yeast ICV D47 to one batch, Safale US-09 Dry Ale yeast (Fermentis) to a second batch, and Safbrew S-33 Dry Brewing yeast (Fermentis) to a third batch. All three came out without solvent odors, and the Lalvin wine yeast apparently produced the best flavor.
equator_brew
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Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
I know it's been months since this question was posted, but in case it comes up again...
A member called LeadGolem tried several kinds of grains, including wheat berries and (I think) barley. The posts probably start about 30 pages in. They were spread out over several weeks during the fermentation period but it basically turned out that the koji was not able to break down the starches in the non-rice grains. He also tried a long-grain rice and that failed too (very little liquid production).
Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
Rice Wine FAQ, part 1
Ok, ladles and germ-lovers… I’ve read through this entire doggone thread. A herculean feat. I’m not proud of my OCD tendencies, but there’s a silver lining. I’ve seen the same questions come up over and over. Sometimes there’s someone around who knows the answer; sometimes not. So I’m gonna try to compile an FAQ here.
I’m still fairly new to this so I’m sure some of you will have better answers. And I’ll be learning more as I go. I’m totally open to editing this post if you’ve got better info. Fingers crossed we can save people a lot of searching around for answers.
Yeah, I know, this one’s prolly bound for the TL;DR heap. But I hope with the Q&A format, people can find what they need without reading the entire thing.
edit: I will have to do this in two posts. It really is too long!
Revision history:
June 11, 2020 - first draft
I keep seeing a few abbreviations. What do they mean?
ARL = Angel Rice Leaven, a brand of the all-important fungus combination that turns rice into wine.
RYR = Red Yeast Rice, rice inoculated with a specific fungus that may help lower cholesterol. It seems to “assist” the fermentation. See the question about it below.
What’s with this “dried yeast” anyway?
This stuff has been around for literally thousands of years, yet the technology is pretty darned amazing. I kinda imagine it going down like that episode of Star Trek, Mudd’s Women. Some guy’s wife said, “Why you wanna go to all that trouble making the rice sweet and then stirring in yeast a week later? Just chuck the stuff in and get back to working in the mines.” Because it’s really, truly capable of doing a two-stage process in a single step.
The most important contents are the fungi (typically a Rhizopus, but sometimes an Aspergillus, and yeast). The Rhiz. or Asper. produce an enzyme that eats starch and pees sugar. The yeast eats the sugar and pees alcohol. I do love me some yeast piss!
There might also be lactobacillus in some brands because yeast prefers a slightly acid environment. Even if there’s no lacto in the mix, the fungus will produce some lactic acid as it works. **Beware: this is the source of many soured batches.** But.. it can be controlled. Read on, my friends.
P.S. 1: I know that these ingredients aren’t always listed on the package. For several months people were adding wine yeast to Angel Rice Leaven (ARL), because the packet doesn’t actually list yeast as an ingredient. “Leaven” is another word for “yeast,” so maybe they figure we’ll just know. Remember, this stuff isn’t manufactured for us culture-appropriating North Americans. But you are now a member of a secret society and you’ve got the real 411. Enjoy your new cult-leader status.
P.S.2: There’s also Nuruk, the Korean version of the enzyme-producing fungus.
P.S. 3: There is a snack food that looks like giant yeast balls and contains spices and seasonings. It seems to be made from semi-fermented rice. A couple of people have used it instead of the dried yeast balls, and it’s sorta worked. IMO, you’re better off getting the dried, unseasoned stuff. You can find it on eBay and on Amazon easily enough.
Seriously, what kind of rice should I use?
According to folks in this thread who are way more scientific than I am, there are two kinds of starch in rice: amylose and amylopectin. The fungus prefers amylopectin. Shorter-grain rices have more of the “yummy!” starch, while longer grain rices have more of the “meh” starch. That’s why short-grain rice gets so sticky when you cook it, and it’s why short-grain varieties give the best yield. These varieties are also very neutral in flavor.
Some people prefer more of that rice-vanilla taste, so they prefer Thai “sticky Jasmine” (AKA Hom Mali). It’s more of a medium grain than a short grain but yields are good enough to make it worth considering.
Many other types of rice will work. The key is shorter grains give better yield, and the flavor of the rice influences the flavor of the wine. Long-grain rice from your local supermarket just isn’t worth the time.
Do I need to rinse the rice before cooking?
Rinsing is optional but I always do it. If I knew for sure that my yeast cakes contained Aspergillus, I might not bother. From what I’ve read, Aspergillus is more efficient at breaking down the excess proteins and lipids that might be in the rice dust. Most of the Shanghai yeast cakes, however, use Rhizopus (confirmed years ago by the OP, who sequenced it in a lab). So to be safe, I rinse. Plus I’ve also read that rice is often treated with pesticides for long-term storage … ick, I don’t want that in my wine. Oh, and the starches you’re worried about rinsing away? The fungus isn’t interested in that type of starch, or so I’ve read, so you won’t be losing any of your sugars. It’s also possible that rinsing makes it a little easier to get a clear final product. I haven’t tested that theory.
What’s the best way to cook the rice? Do I need to presoak? If I do presoak, why do I need to cook it?
The purpose of cooking the rice is to gelatinize the starches so that the fungus can consume them. You need both heat and water to make it "yummy for your fungi."
The goal is to get the rice grains digestible, but not mushy. You can accomplish this goal with just about any cooking method, as long as you control your rice-to-water ratio.
I’ve steamed my rice and I’ve boiled/simmered it in a pot. Both ways work, but steaming takes far longer. That's when presoaking comes in handy. Kinda like cooking beans: if you soak them overnight before boiling, the water that’s already absorbed helps them to cook faster. Same here.
If you boil/simmer your rice or use a dedicated rice cooker, presoaking will probably make your rice too wet.
Aim for rice that is translucent but still has separate grains. If it’s still opaque white, the fungus won’t eat it. If it’s mush, you’ll get sour wine.
How much water should I use for each cup of rice?
This is probably one of the most confusing issues. Grab some coffee because this is gonna be a longer answer.
First: too much water, too soon, is definitely a bad thing. The first few days, the fungus is working hard, cooking some sweet breakfast, while the yeast is still lying in bed reading the newspaper. If you give that fungus too much water, it goes into lactic-acid-producing overdrive. Sour wine results. You can add more water later, though… yep, keep reading.
Second: A lot depends on your cooking method. If you’re steaming, your rice will absorb what it’s gonna absorb. Not much danger of overcooking, if you do it right. OTOH, there is a danger of undercooking — so read the previous question, and do at least a 2-hour presoak. Then steam away until it’s properly cooked.
If the rice is going to sit in the water while it cooks, limit water to no more than 1.5X the amount of rice. Most people on this forum find success at 1 part rice against 1-1.3 parts water.
Third: Remember that rice cookers come with a 6-ounce cup, not an 8-ounce cup. If you’re using a rice cooker, use the same cup to measure both rice and water!
Finally: You can add more water, if you do it at the right time. One very thorough contributor to this thread does this regularly. It helps get the yeast started again if it stalls out, and results in a drier wine. If you’re going to do this, wait until carbonation dies down a bit — so maybe at the end of week 3. (I haven’t done this myself, so I don’t have precise instructions.)
Water isn’t the only factor when it comes to sour wine. Keep reading.
How much yeast/fungus mix should I use?
The yeast-fungus mixture comes in several forms. There are balls, tablets, and small foil packets.
The one that comes in packets, Angel Rice Leaven, is made in a lab. It’s relatively potent and also more consistent than the balls. Some people prefer the more neutral taste it gives. You don’t need much of it. The manufacturer says one 8-gram packet will serve 2 kilos of rice. I haven’t tried it yet. Got some on order and will update when I test it. I usually make 1 kilo at a time, so I’ll use a half-pack.
The balls and tablets come from many different sources. They’re inconsistent in size, and contain more inert material than the Angel brand. I weigh them, and I use about 30 grams per kilo of rice. It’s less “pure” than the Angel, but some people like the flavors better. I say try both if you can get your hands on them. Decide what you like best.
What’s the best temperature range for fermentation?
For more detail, see the question about "set it and forget it." Brief answer is: in the low-to-mid 80s the first few days, then as close as you can to around 60° for the remainder of the ferment. The yeast used for this process likes cool temperatures. In fact, there’s one infamous photo of a refrigerator after a bottle bomb. This stuff will continue to ferment for several months past the initial fermentation.
My house isn’t hot enough to start it out in the mid 80s. What can I do?
If your fermenting vessel fits in the oven, you can put it in there with the light on. If your container is clear, though, cover it with a towel or blanket to keep out light. I’ve read that unwanted molds can bloom with too much light.
Some people say “set it and forget it,” while others stir, or add water, or change the temperature of the fermenting environment part way through. What’s the “right” way?
This will take a bit to explain. Remember, even though you can chuck everything in the fermenter at once, this is essentially a two-stage process — starches get converted to sugars, and then sugars get converted to alcohol. The first few days the fungus is the star of the show. Alcohol conversion is initially quite low. Then the yeast wakes up and gets to work. Their needs are a bit different.
The fungus likes oxygen, moisture, and warmer temperatures to begin, but it can produce too much lactic acid if allowed to stay too wet or too warm for too long. (Lactic acid production is needed to create correct pH for the yeast; some yeast balls may even contain lactobacillus for this purpose.) Yeast needs oxygen early on, but adapts to an anaerobic environment as the rice submerges. (That sounded pretty science-y!)
The absolute best advice I’ve seen indicates that you should place your fermenter in a warmer environment (about 80-86°) for the first 2-3 days. During that time, you should also agitate the mix. The fungus needs both air and water. It will go into “emergency replication mode” if it lacks one or the other. If you see black spores on your rice, it's because you’ve starved the fungus.
So why did the OP suggest “set and forget”? I think 3 reasons:
How do I know when to move the fermenter to a cooler environment?
It seems like the best time is when the liquid level is up to about 80% of the rice level. At this point you might start to notice CO2 forming. Average seems to be 3-5 days.
BTW, if you're using a plastic bucket like I do, you can do the flashlight test to gauge where your liquid level is. Just light it, hold it right up against the side of the bucket, and slowly slide it up and down.
How long should I let this stuff ferment?
Depending on ambient temperatures, it takes 3-4 weeks for this stuff to generate serious levels of alcohol. If you keep your temperatures low and don’t over-water, you can go longer without fear of souring. Some of the most knowledgeable contributors to this forum suggest 90 days. If you can wait that long, LOL.
Batch size has an influence on fermentation time due to internal temperatures (see below question on batch size).
And definitely try eating some of the rice after only 2 or 3 days. I always make a little extra and put it in a separate jar just for that purpose, just like another contributor suggested. You’ll be blown away by how sugary it is. DH and I love this stuff for dessert. I add a sprinkle of cinnamon, and sometimes a spoonful of coconut milk if I want a creamier texture. Yum-yum, happy food.
P.S. I opened a jar of the dessert stuff last night. It had been fermenting only 3 days. There was enough liquid that I poured it into another jar to see if it would ferment further. Today there’s visible carbonation. Yep. Three days was enough to release that much sugar and grow that much yeast. How cool is that?
How big a batch can I make? What kind of yield can I expect? How big a vessel do I need to ferment in?
There was one guy on this thread who always made batches with 10 pounds of rice. There was another guy who, with a bunch of crazy brewing friends, did a 500-pound (or maybe 500-kilo?) batch. I’m the only lush in my household, so I make 1-kilo batches.
Batch size will influence your fermentation time! A large mass of rice sitting undisturbed will generate a lot of heat on its own, just like a compost heap, and it could easily get hot enough to kill the yeast. So if you’re doing a large batch, I’m gonna say you really want to agitate it a few times a day until the rice mass starts to break down. OTOH, that heat will also speed up liquid production. Just don’t let it get too cray-cray up in there.
If you don’t have a super large pot to cook the rice in, consider batch additions. Your initial batch is like a “starter.” Once it gets going you can add more rice/yeast/fungus to it. I’ve seen a couple of articles that sound like two additions are pretty common. I know folks on this board have done it. Like I said, I’m keeping to smaller batches so I can’t speak to this. Maybe some day I’ll try it so I can have some to set aside and age.
Yield is gonna vary depending on a lot of things, but a rule of thumb is one cup finished wine for each cup of water.
Rice swells up to at least twice its original size when cooked. And then, in the first few days, it will swell more and float up on the liquid. Make sure you have at least 2” of headroom so it doesn’t overflow, which could lead to contamination. It will start compacting after awhile, as the solids reduce, but that takes time.
What’s Red Yeast Rice (RYR)? Do I need to use it?
Worst product name in history. It’s not yeast at all. They take rice and they grow a different kind for fungus on it, Monascus Purpurae. It gives your Rhizopus a little help in converting sugars, contributes a nice rosy color, and may help slow the growth of lactobacillus. Use it only in small quantities, like about 1 tablespoon per cup of rice.
This one seems to be a matter of personal preference. It adds a “fruity” flavor to the wine. Some like it, some prefer a more neutral taste. I want to try it for its lactobacillus-limiting properties. I’ve got some on order. Will report back.
P.S.: Red Yeast Rice contains a natural statin. If you’re taking medication to control your cholesterol, speak to your doctor before using it. Either way, don’t use much.
Oh no! There’s some kind of nasty growing in here. What do I do?
Go back up and read the question about “set and forget” versus doing other stuff to it.
Done? Okay, so… there is a fungus and it’s gonna reproduce. But it should not turn black (sporification stage) or yellow (flowering stage). Keep that top cap of rice wet, make sure it gets enough oxygen in the early stage, and you'll prevent both of those things from happening.
Do not expose your mash to much light. Always ferment in a dark place. Cover it with a blanket if you need to.
If you have black, brown, green, or any other color than white, don’t stir it back in. Skim it off the top and then let it ride. Should be okay again once it gets nice and alcoholic.
Smells like nail-polish remover. Is it still okay?
Seems like some unwanted alcohols can develop early in the fermentation, delivering an acetone smell. They usually disappear as fermentation continues. Don’t drink it if it still smells like that.
(Can anyone help fill this section out a bit? What about banana aroma - esters?)
I’m done fermenting and now I want to harvest. How do I deal with all this sludge? Help!
Yep. By the time you’re ready to harvest, you’ll only have about 20% of the volume of solids you started with. But even that amount is still hard to filter out. Here’s how two of the more experienced contributors describe their process:
I <3 fungi
Ok, ladles and germ-lovers… I’ve read through this entire doggone thread. A herculean feat. I’m not proud of my OCD tendencies, but there’s a silver lining. I’ve seen the same questions come up over and over. Sometimes there’s someone around who knows the answer; sometimes not. So I’m gonna try to compile an FAQ here.
I’m still fairly new to this so I’m sure some of you will have better answers. And I’ll be learning more as I go. I’m totally open to editing this post if you’ve got better info. Fingers crossed we can save people a lot of searching around for answers.
Yeah, I know, this one’s prolly bound for the TL;DR heap. But I hope with the Q&A format, people can find what they need without reading the entire thing.
edit: I will have to do this in two posts. It really is too long!
Revision history:
June 11, 2020 - first draft
I keep seeing a few abbreviations. What do they mean?
ARL = Angel Rice Leaven, a brand of the all-important fungus combination that turns rice into wine.
RYR = Red Yeast Rice, rice inoculated with a specific fungus that may help lower cholesterol. It seems to “assist” the fermentation. See the question about it below.
What’s with this “dried yeast” anyway?
This stuff has been around for literally thousands of years, yet the technology is pretty darned amazing. I kinda imagine it going down like that episode of Star Trek, Mudd’s Women. Some guy’s wife said, “Why you wanna go to all that trouble making the rice sweet and then stirring in yeast a week later? Just chuck the stuff in and get back to working in the mines.” Because it’s really, truly capable of doing a two-stage process in a single step.
The most important contents are the fungi (typically a Rhizopus, but sometimes an Aspergillus, and yeast). The Rhiz. or Asper. produce an enzyme that eats starch and pees sugar. The yeast eats the sugar and pees alcohol. I do love me some yeast piss!
There might also be lactobacillus in some brands because yeast prefers a slightly acid environment. Even if there’s no lacto in the mix, the fungus will produce some lactic acid as it works. **Beware: this is the source of many soured batches.** But.. it can be controlled. Read on, my friends.
P.S. 1: I know that these ingredients aren’t always listed on the package. For several months people were adding wine yeast to Angel Rice Leaven (ARL), because the packet doesn’t actually list yeast as an ingredient. “Leaven” is another word for “yeast,” so maybe they figure we’ll just know. Remember, this stuff isn’t manufactured for us culture-appropriating North Americans. But you are now a member of a secret society and you’ve got the real 411. Enjoy your new cult-leader status.
P.S.2: There’s also Nuruk, the Korean version of the enzyme-producing fungus.
P.S. 3: There is a snack food that looks like giant yeast balls and contains spices and seasonings. It seems to be made from semi-fermented rice. A couple of people have used it instead of the dried yeast balls, and it’s sorta worked. IMO, you’re better off getting the dried, unseasoned stuff. You can find it on eBay and on Amazon easily enough.
Seriously, what kind of rice should I use?
According to folks in this thread who are way more scientific than I am, there are two kinds of starch in rice: amylose and amylopectin. The fungus prefers amylopectin. Shorter-grain rices have more of the “yummy!” starch, while longer grain rices have more of the “meh” starch. That’s why short-grain rice gets so sticky when you cook it, and it’s why short-grain varieties give the best yield. These varieties are also very neutral in flavor.
Some people prefer more of that rice-vanilla taste, so they prefer Thai “sticky Jasmine” (AKA Hom Mali). It’s more of a medium grain than a short grain but yields are good enough to make it worth considering.
Many other types of rice will work. The key is shorter grains give better yield, and the flavor of the rice influences the flavor of the wine. Long-grain rice from your local supermarket just isn’t worth the time.
Do I need to rinse the rice before cooking?
Rinsing is optional but I always do it. If I knew for sure that my yeast cakes contained Aspergillus, I might not bother. From what I’ve read, Aspergillus is more efficient at breaking down the excess proteins and lipids that might be in the rice dust. Most of the Shanghai yeast cakes, however, use Rhizopus (confirmed years ago by the OP, who sequenced it in a lab). So to be safe, I rinse. Plus I’ve also read that rice is often treated with pesticides for long-term storage … ick, I don’t want that in my wine. Oh, and the starches you’re worried about rinsing away? The fungus isn’t interested in that type of starch, or so I’ve read, so you won’t be losing any of your sugars. It’s also possible that rinsing makes it a little easier to get a clear final product. I haven’t tested that theory.
What’s the best way to cook the rice? Do I need to presoak? If I do presoak, why do I need to cook it?
The purpose of cooking the rice is to gelatinize the starches so that the fungus can consume them. You need both heat and water to make it "yummy for your fungi."
The goal is to get the rice grains digestible, but not mushy. You can accomplish this goal with just about any cooking method, as long as you control your rice-to-water ratio.
I’ve steamed my rice and I’ve boiled/simmered it in a pot. Both ways work, but steaming takes far longer. That's when presoaking comes in handy. Kinda like cooking beans: if you soak them overnight before boiling, the water that’s already absorbed helps them to cook faster. Same here.
If you boil/simmer your rice or use a dedicated rice cooker, presoaking will probably make your rice too wet.
Aim for rice that is translucent but still has separate grains. If it’s still opaque white, the fungus won’t eat it. If it’s mush, you’ll get sour wine.
How much water should I use for each cup of rice?
This is probably one of the most confusing issues. Grab some coffee because this is gonna be a longer answer.
First: too much water, too soon, is definitely a bad thing. The first few days, the fungus is working hard, cooking some sweet breakfast, while the yeast is still lying in bed reading the newspaper. If you give that fungus too much water, it goes into lactic-acid-producing overdrive. Sour wine results. You can add more water later, though… yep, keep reading.
Second: A lot depends on your cooking method. If you’re steaming, your rice will absorb what it’s gonna absorb. Not much danger of overcooking, if you do it right. OTOH, there is a danger of undercooking — so read the previous question, and do at least a 2-hour presoak. Then steam away until it’s properly cooked.
If the rice is going to sit in the water while it cooks, limit water to no more than 1.5X the amount of rice. Most people on this forum find success at 1 part rice against 1-1.3 parts water.
Third: Remember that rice cookers come with a 6-ounce cup, not an 8-ounce cup. If you’re using a rice cooker, use the same cup to measure both rice and water!
Finally: You can add more water, if you do it at the right time. One very thorough contributor to this thread does this regularly. It helps get the yeast started again if it stalls out, and results in a drier wine. If you’re going to do this, wait until carbonation dies down a bit — so maybe at the end of week 3. (I haven’t done this myself, so I don’t have precise instructions.)
Water isn’t the only factor when it comes to sour wine. Keep reading.
How much yeast/fungus mix should I use?
The yeast-fungus mixture comes in several forms. There are balls, tablets, and small foil packets.
The one that comes in packets, Angel Rice Leaven, is made in a lab. It’s relatively potent and also more consistent than the balls. Some people prefer the more neutral taste it gives. You don’t need much of it. The manufacturer says one 8-gram packet will serve 2 kilos of rice. I haven’t tried it yet. Got some on order and will update when I test it. I usually make 1 kilo at a time, so I’ll use a half-pack.
The balls and tablets come from many different sources. They’re inconsistent in size, and contain more inert material than the Angel brand. I weigh them, and I use about 30 grams per kilo of rice. It’s less “pure” than the Angel, but some people like the flavors better. I say try both if you can get your hands on them. Decide what you like best.
What’s the best temperature range for fermentation?
For more detail, see the question about "set it and forget it." Brief answer is: in the low-to-mid 80s the first few days, then as close as you can to around 60° for the remainder of the ferment. The yeast used for this process likes cool temperatures. In fact, there’s one infamous photo of a refrigerator after a bottle bomb. This stuff will continue to ferment for several months past the initial fermentation.
My house isn’t hot enough to start it out in the mid 80s. What can I do?
If your fermenting vessel fits in the oven, you can put it in there with the light on. If your container is clear, though, cover it with a towel or blanket to keep out light. I’ve read that unwanted molds can bloom with too much light.
Some people say “set it and forget it,” while others stir, or add water, or change the temperature of the fermenting environment part way through. What’s the “right” way?
This will take a bit to explain. Remember, even though you can chuck everything in the fermenter at once, this is essentially a two-stage process — starches get converted to sugars, and then sugars get converted to alcohol. The first few days the fungus is the star of the show. Alcohol conversion is initially quite low. Then the yeast wakes up and gets to work. Their needs are a bit different.
The fungus likes oxygen, moisture, and warmer temperatures to begin, but it can produce too much lactic acid if allowed to stay too wet or too warm for too long. (Lactic acid production is needed to create correct pH for the yeast; some yeast balls may even contain lactobacillus for this purpose.) Yeast needs oxygen early on, but adapts to an anaerobic environment as the rice submerges. (That sounded pretty science-y!)
The absolute best advice I’ve seen indicates that you should place your fermenter in a warmer environment (about 80-86°) for the first 2-3 days. During that time, you should also agitate the mix. The fungus needs both air and water. It will go into “emergency replication mode” if it lacks one or the other. If you see black spores on your rice, it's because you’ve starved the fungus.
So why did the OP suggest “set and forget”? I think 3 reasons:
- Based on his photos, he always left plenty of headroom above his rice, so there was lots of air for the fungus to use.
- He stated that he put the rice in his container while it was still warm, allowing condensation to form. I'm guessing this was enough to moisten the rice on top.
- He never made huge batches, so never got excessive heat buildup (see below), so he just never needed to stir.
- Larger batches can build up quite a lot of heat, just sitting there (kinda like a compost heap). So to make sure you don’t boil your yeast to death, keep that mass moving until it’s liquefied enough to submerge all the rice.
How do I know when to move the fermenter to a cooler environment?
It seems like the best time is when the liquid level is up to about 80% of the rice level. At this point you might start to notice CO2 forming. Average seems to be 3-5 days.
BTW, if you're using a plastic bucket like I do, you can do the flashlight test to gauge where your liquid level is. Just light it, hold it right up against the side of the bucket, and slowly slide it up and down.
How long should I let this stuff ferment?
Depending on ambient temperatures, it takes 3-4 weeks for this stuff to generate serious levels of alcohol. If you keep your temperatures low and don’t over-water, you can go longer without fear of souring. Some of the most knowledgeable contributors to this forum suggest 90 days. If you can wait that long, LOL.
Batch size has an influence on fermentation time due to internal temperatures (see below question on batch size).
And definitely try eating some of the rice after only 2 or 3 days. I always make a little extra and put it in a separate jar just for that purpose, just like another contributor suggested. You’ll be blown away by how sugary it is. DH and I love this stuff for dessert. I add a sprinkle of cinnamon, and sometimes a spoonful of coconut milk if I want a creamier texture. Yum-yum, happy food.
P.S. I opened a jar of the dessert stuff last night. It had been fermenting only 3 days. There was enough liquid that I poured it into another jar to see if it would ferment further. Today there’s visible carbonation. Yep. Three days was enough to release that much sugar and grow that much yeast. How cool is that?
How big a batch can I make? What kind of yield can I expect? How big a vessel do I need to ferment in?
There was one guy on this thread who always made batches with 10 pounds of rice. There was another guy who, with a bunch of crazy brewing friends, did a 500-pound (or maybe 500-kilo?) batch. I’m the only lush in my household, so I make 1-kilo batches.
Batch size will influence your fermentation time! A large mass of rice sitting undisturbed will generate a lot of heat on its own, just like a compost heap, and it could easily get hot enough to kill the yeast. So if you’re doing a large batch, I’m gonna say you really want to agitate it a few times a day until the rice mass starts to break down. OTOH, that heat will also speed up liquid production. Just don’t let it get too cray-cray up in there.
If you don’t have a super large pot to cook the rice in, consider batch additions. Your initial batch is like a “starter.” Once it gets going you can add more rice/yeast/fungus to it. I’ve seen a couple of articles that sound like two additions are pretty common. I know folks on this board have done it. Like I said, I’m keeping to smaller batches so I can’t speak to this. Maybe some day I’ll try it so I can have some to set aside and age.
Yield is gonna vary depending on a lot of things, but a rule of thumb is one cup finished wine for each cup of water.
Rice swells up to at least twice its original size when cooked. And then, in the first few days, it will swell more and float up on the liquid. Make sure you have at least 2” of headroom so it doesn’t overflow, which could lead to contamination. It will start compacting after awhile, as the solids reduce, but that takes time.
What’s Red Yeast Rice (RYR)? Do I need to use it?
Worst product name in history. It’s not yeast at all. They take rice and they grow a different kind for fungus on it, Monascus Purpurae. It gives your Rhizopus a little help in converting sugars, contributes a nice rosy color, and may help slow the growth of lactobacillus. Use it only in small quantities, like about 1 tablespoon per cup of rice.
This one seems to be a matter of personal preference. It adds a “fruity” flavor to the wine. Some like it, some prefer a more neutral taste. I want to try it for its lactobacillus-limiting properties. I’ve got some on order. Will report back.
P.S.: Red Yeast Rice contains a natural statin. If you’re taking medication to control your cholesterol, speak to your doctor before using it. Either way, don’t use much.
Oh no! There’s some kind of nasty growing in here. What do I do?
Go back up and read the question about “set and forget” versus doing other stuff to it.
Done? Okay, so… there is a fungus and it’s gonna reproduce. But it should not turn black (sporification stage) or yellow (flowering stage). Keep that top cap of rice wet, make sure it gets enough oxygen in the early stage, and you'll prevent both of those things from happening.
Do not expose your mash to much light. Always ferment in a dark place. Cover it with a blanket if you need to.
If you have black, brown, green, or any other color than white, don’t stir it back in. Skim it off the top and then let it ride. Should be okay again once it gets nice and alcoholic.
Smells like nail-polish remover. Is it still okay?
Seems like some unwanted alcohols can develop early in the fermentation, delivering an acetone smell. They usually disappear as fermentation continues. Don’t drink it if it still smells like that.
(Can anyone help fill this section out a bit? What about banana aroma - esters?)
I’m done fermenting and now I want to harvest. How do I deal with all this sludge? Help!
Yep. By the time you’re ready to harvest, you’ll only have about 20% of the volume of solids you started with. But even that amount is still hard to filter out. Here’s how two of the more experienced contributors describe their process:
- Get a paint-strainer bag from the hardware store. Sanitize it.
- Put it into a sanitized fermenting bucket with the bag overlapping the rim.
- Fill the bag with your rice mix.
- Cover with lid and allow airspace for CO2 to escape (use an airlock, or don’t close the lid completely — you can put a folded piece of cheesecloth between the lid and the vessel to provide a little bit of a gap.)
- When ready to harvest:
- Scoop out any floating solids and set them aside.
- Decant as much clear liquid as you can, straining it into a receiving vessel. Consider this your “premium” wine.
- Put the set-aside solids back in the original container, along with the lees.
- Lift up the bag and strain the mush into a separate receiving vessel, squeezing from the top down. Consider this cloudier stuff your “casual” wine.
- You can now decide how clear or cloudy you want your final wine to be. Do you want to mix some of the cloudy stuff in with the clear? Do you want to keep them separate? Taste and decide.
- Pasteurizing and cold-crashing will clear the wine further.
I <3 fungi
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Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
Rice Wine FAQ, Part 2
... continuing
Do I need to pasteurize? What’s the best way to pasteurize?
First off, this yeast is incredibly cold-tolerant. One frequent contributor had a carboy out in his garage all winter, temperatures never rose about 40°F, and it was still bubbling. Slow, but still active. And there’s that dreaded bottle-bomb incident early in the thread.
So if you like the wine sweeter, harvest earlier and pasteurize before storing. If you like it drier, wait until yeast has completely finished and you’re absolutely sure it’s no longer active. Then pasteurize anyway because it’s safer.
I guess I’m saying it’s best to pasteurize. Unless you’re like the OP and you’re making small batches that you consume too quickly to store.
How to pasteurize? There’s a detailed post in the cider forum. You can bulk pasteurize or bottle and then pasteurize in a water bath. Basically, bring the temperature up to about 145° and hold it there for a few minutes. That oughta attenuate the yeast without boiling away all that lovely yeast pee we’ve worked so hard to capture.
Can I use (insert starchy edible) instead of rice? Can I use black, brown, red, or wild rice?
Many, many people have tried it. Wheat berries, barley, shredded potatoes, bananas, taro, corn, cassava, etc. …. none of these had the right proportions of starches. Most of the mixes were foul, and even the drinkable ones weren’t good at all.
That said, there is a traditional wine that uses a combination of rice and sweet potato. I think it’s like 4 parts rice to 1 part sweet potato. Obvs, I haven’t tried this yet. I’m interested though. If I do it, I’ll update this post.
The enzyme that releases sugars doesn’t penetrate the hull of brown rice; black and red varieties are also too hard. Wild rice isn’t even rice, it’s a grass seed. None of these have worked for anyone who has tried them and posted here.
I understand the temptation: I want to create other flavor profiles, too. You can add stuff to it, but keep rice as the base.
Do I need to add energizer/nutrient/extra sugar/corn-starch/raisins/you-name-it to get the yeast off to a good start?
I’m still working on this one, but it looks like the one bad idea is extra sugar. It might be that it stimulates the yeast too quickly, before the rice starts converting. But many traditional recipes include a tablespoon or two of corn-starch, rice flour, or wheat flour at the beginning. A few raisins are not uncommon.
It’s hard to find yeast balls in my area. Can I re-use the lees to start another batch?
One person in this thread got it to work one time, with lees that had red yeast rice in. He speculated that the additional fungus helped prevent growth of something that would otherwise slow down the yeast… or maybe it helped boost early sugar production. His batch without red yeast rice went sour quickly. Another contributor who tried also ended up with sour wine that was low in alcohol.
From what I’ve read this is theoretically possible. Professional breweries apparently do it regularly. Apparently you have to time it right, and we don’t know what that point is. Definitely doesn’t work if you wait until fermentation is complete. Anyone who has tried to do it has ultimately decided that the yeast balls are so cheap it’s not worth the effort. Still… if someone does achieve success, let us know and I’ll update this answer.
I want to flavor my wine with fruit or spices. How do I do that and when’s the best time?
Flavoring agents are best added after harvest. Even better, wait till after pasteurization, especially if your flavoring agent has any sugar in it, ‘cause otherwise you could re-start fermentation and get a bottle bomb.
It looks like you can add some flavorings at the start, but they can throw off fermentation. Fruits or juices might mess with your sugar-acid ratios. Some spices can slow yeast growth. For example, I add cinnamon to my raisin bread after the second proofing, or it can keep the bread from rising.
Plus, fermentation really changes the flavor.
Okay, I do want to add flavor after harvest. What should I use?
If you want to add a fruit flavor, a lot of people take frozen fruit, thaw it out, and use the juices. Fresh fruit could have nasties, so it should probably be reduced to syrup. I think some folks have used frozen fruit juice concentrate too.
Simple syrups (like the ones used in coffee or the ones used as mixers) are also popular. Lots of flavor choices there.
Spices like cinnamon, vanilla bean, and even chili peppers have been used and people liked the results. I plan to try some ginger simple syrup in my next batch.
Can I just buy some amylase enzyme and mix that with rice, then add a wine yeast?
Sure. You can also buy pure Aspergillus online. The yeast balls are inconsistent, so I can see the attraction of a purified enzyme (or a pure fungus that generates the enzyme) and a quality-controlled yeast that I can select for a specific flavor profile. I believe chonas did it back in late 2016/early 2017. Would it end up being bland? Dunno. To what extent do the impurities lend flavor components? This is another “maybe someday” thing for me. Report back if you do it.
How the heck has this thread been going for so long?
For that we can thank the OP, who really gave us a lot of inspiration, along with the multitude of mad-scientist types who’ve added to our fund of knowledge along the way.
I know I’ll forget some folks but I especially want to thank:
sonofgrok, saramc, leadgolem, chefrex, fatdragon, tempted2, trbig, evilgrin, chonas, wongjau
Bottom line: this is fun, relatively easy, and gets you something pretty darn tasty in just 3 weeks (longer is even better). And if you get a bad batch it’s cheap enough that you can just shrug it off and do another. So why not try it?
What’s your most important piece of advice?
RDWHAHB (do you really have to ask?)I
I <3 fungi
... continuing
Do I need to pasteurize? What’s the best way to pasteurize?
First off, this yeast is incredibly cold-tolerant. One frequent contributor had a carboy out in his garage all winter, temperatures never rose about 40°F, and it was still bubbling. Slow, but still active. And there’s that dreaded bottle-bomb incident early in the thread.
So if you like the wine sweeter, harvest earlier and pasteurize before storing. If you like it drier, wait until yeast has completely finished and you’re absolutely sure it’s no longer active. Then pasteurize anyway because it’s safer.
I guess I’m saying it’s best to pasteurize. Unless you’re like the OP and you’re making small batches that you consume too quickly to store.
How to pasteurize? There’s a detailed post in the cider forum. You can bulk pasteurize or bottle and then pasteurize in a water bath. Basically, bring the temperature up to about 145° and hold it there for a few minutes. That oughta attenuate the yeast without boiling away all that lovely yeast pee we’ve worked so hard to capture.
Can I use (insert starchy edible) instead of rice? Can I use black, brown, red, or wild rice?
Many, many people have tried it. Wheat berries, barley, shredded potatoes, bananas, taro, corn, cassava, etc. …. none of these had the right proportions of starches. Most of the mixes were foul, and even the drinkable ones weren’t good at all.
That said, there is a traditional wine that uses a combination of rice and sweet potato. I think it’s like 4 parts rice to 1 part sweet potato. Obvs, I haven’t tried this yet. I’m interested though. If I do it, I’ll update this post.
The enzyme that releases sugars doesn’t penetrate the hull of brown rice; black and red varieties are also too hard. Wild rice isn’t even rice, it’s a grass seed. None of these have worked for anyone who has tried them and posted here.
I understand the temptation: I want to create other flavor profiles, too. You can add stuff to it, but keep rice as the base.
Do I need to add energizer/nutrient/extra sugar/corn-starch/raisins/you-name-it to get the yeast off to a good start?
I’m still working on this one, but it looks like the one bad idea is extra sugar. It might be that it stimulates the yeast too quickly, before the rice starts converting. But many traditional recipes include a tablespoon or two of corn-starch, rice flour, or wheat flour at the beginning. A few raisins are not uncommon.
It’s hard to find yeast balls in my area. Can I re-use the lees to start another batch?
One person in this thread got it to work one time, with lees that had red yeast rice in. He speculated that the additional fungus helped prevent growth of something that would otherwise slow down the yeast… or maybe it helped boost early sugar production. His batch without red yeast rice went sour quickly. Another contributor who tried also ended up with sour wine that was low in alcohol.
From what I’ve read this is theoretically possible. Professional breweries apparently do it regularly. Apparently you have to time it right, and we don’t know what that point is. Definitely doesn’t work if you wait until fermentation is complete. Anyone who has tried to do it has ultimately decided that the yeast balls are so cheap it’s not worth the effort. Still… if someone does achieve success, let us know and I’ll update this answer.
I want to flavor my wine with fruit or spices. How do I do that and when’s the best time?
Flavoring agents are best added after harvest. Even better, wait till after pasteurization, especially if your flavoring agent has any sugar in it, ‘cause otherwise you could re-start fermentation and get a bottle bomb.
It looks like you can add some flavorings at the start, but they can throw off fermentation. Fruits or juices might mess with your sugar-acid ratios. Some spices can slow yeast growth. For example, I add cinnamon to my raisin bread after the second proofing, or it can keep the bread from rising.
Plus, fermentation really changes the flavor.
Okay, I do want to add flavor after harvest. What should I use?
If you want to add a fruit flavor, a lot of people take frozen fruit, thaw it out, and use the juices. Fresh fruit could have nasties, so it should probably be reduced to syrup. I think some folks have used frozen fruit juice concentrate too.
Simple syrups (like the ones used in coffee or the ones used as mixers) are also popular. Lots of flavor choices there.
Spices like cinnamon, vanilla bean, and even chili peppers have been used and people liked the results. I plan to try some ginger simple syrup in my next batch.
Can I just buy some amylase enzyme and mix that with rice, then add a wine yeast?
Sure. You can also buy pure Aspergillus online. The yeast balls are inconsistent, so I can see the attraction of a purified enzyme (or a pure fungus that generates the enzyme) and a quality-controlled yeast that I can select for a specific flavor profile. I believe chonas did it back in late 2016/early 2017. Would it end up being bland? Dunno. To what extent do the impurities lend flavor components? This is another “maybe someday” thing for me. Report back if you do it.
How the heck has this thread been going for so long?
For that we can thank the OP, who really gave us a lot of inspiration, along with the multitude of mad-scientist types who’ve added to our fund of knowledge along the way.
I know I’ll forget some folks but I especially want to thank:
sonofgrok, saramc, leadgolem, chefrex, fatdragon, tempted2, trbig, evilgrin, chonas, wongjau
Bottom line: this is fun, relatively easy, and gets you something pretty darn tasty in just 3 weeks (longer is even better). And if you get a bad batch it’s cheap enough that you can just shrug it off and do another. So why not try it?
What’s your most important piece of advice?
RDWHAHB (do you really have to ask?)I
I <3 fungi
Last edited:
monkeymath
Well-Known Member
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- Jan 18, 2019
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Wow, thanks so much for digging through this behemoth of a thread and compiling all that information! I greatly appreciate it and I'm sure it'll help many others dip their toes into this realm of fermentation.
Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
You’re welcome. Please let me know if you have anything to add or change.
I figure it’ll be a bit easier for people to search for “FAQ” than try to dig around for answers.
Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
duplicate
Last edited:
searching on this forum usually results in a lot more hay than needles. I've also seen a few other massive threads where people like yourself have generously spent their time compiling the information into a condensed format. The massive pressurized fermentation thread has about 2-3 of these buried in the middle of it now. As this thread continues to grow, your FAQ may become hard to come across. The best way to make this information easy to access would be to start a new thread with this FAQ at the top. We can ask the moderators to make it a stickie so its easy to find that thread within the subforum as well. I think the amount information you have complied would warrant a stickie.
Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
Seamonkey84
Well-Known Member
Thank you!
I’ve read through the whole “Brays one month mead” thread, then I saw this and I just couldn’t do it lol.
I’ve read through the whole “Brays one month mead” thread, then I saw this and I just couldn’t do it lol.
Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
Tried my hand at making some on my own and failed miserably. I followed the method of dwhill on page 135 and think I ended up using too much water. After about 2 weeks I knew it was a failure and made another batch without adding any water after cooking and it's looking like everyone else's and has more pleasant odor.
I ended up letting the original batch go for the full month just for the hell of it. It had a lacto smell early on, kind of like greek yogurt. Then it started growing black dots on the bag I used. Then solid white started to grow around the edge that ended up being about 1/2 an inch thick of tough brain matter looking crap tinged with a little pink. Near the end it started having a yellow/green fuzzy growth on the top..
I tasted some and spit it out. It wasn't gross but wasn't really drinkable. It was surprisingly sweet with a little lacto like sourness and a slightly bitter ending. I think if anyone tried to drink the the bitterness would start adding up and make it unpalatable.
Here's some pictures of the gore.
This stuff was surprisingly tough. It broke apart like a bunch of old dried rubber bands.
My second batch seems to be doing good. I changed several things I did. The taste kind of reminds me of pineapple. I'm not sure the yeast balls I bought were any good, I'll probably try a different one next batch if this one doesn't turn out boozy.
I ended up letting the original batch go for the full month just for the hell of it. It had a lacto smell early on, kind of like greek yogurt. Then it started growing black dots on the bag I used. Then solid white started to grow around the edge that ended up being about 1/2 an inch thick of tough brain matter looking crap tinged with a little pink. Near the end it started having a yellow/green fuzzy growth on the top..
I tasted some and spit it out. It wasn't gross but wasn't really drinkable. It was surprisingly sweet with a little lacto like sourness and a slightly bitter ending. I think if anyone tried to drink the the bitterness would start adding up and make it unpalatable.
Here's some pictures of the gore.
This stuff was surprisingly tough. It broke apart like a bunch of old dried rubber bands.
My second batch seems to be doing good. I changed several things I did. The taste kind of reminds me of pineapple. I'm not sure the yeast balls I bought were any good, I'll probably try a different one next batch if this one doesn't turn out boozy.
Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
Hi and welcome. Yep, I did about the same thing my first time out. I couldn't imagine how I would get wine out of just cooked rice so I added a couple cups of clean water. My first batch didn't grow mold but it was intensely sour.
Regarding your mold growth - your yeast balls might be just fine. Remember that the yeast ball has mold in it on purpose. That mold likes to be kept moist and in the dark. If it gets too dry or too much light it will either spore or bloom -- creating either a black or a yellow-green overgrowth.
After doing a lot of digging I've found that the traditional method does call for stirring at a specific point in the process. Here's what I'm doing now, based on lots of reading (and it's easy to remember because everything is "2 or 3"):
With the rice/yeast ball mix in my fermenting container, put the container in the oven with just the oven light on for a couple of days. The warmth helps the koji mold get off to a good start. Cover the container with a towel because light can encourage the koji mold to bloom.
Leave it there for 2 or 3 days, until the water level has risen to about 80% of the rice level, then move it to a cool, dark place. Just for the next 2 or 3 days, you'll need to stir it 2 or 3 times a day to keep the rice on top from drying out. Just wipe down a spoon with some vodka -- don't worry about introducing air or contamination, this stuff is pretty resilient.
Once there's enough liquid that the top cap can stay moist on its own, you can stop stirring. At that point, you're pretty safe from the kind of overgrowth you saw.
BTW, moving the fermenter to a cool place? The recommended temperature is around 60°. I don't have a place that cool, but apparently the lower temperatures reduce the amount of lacto, so you get a less tangy brew. I've heard that adding red yeast rice helps with that same problem. I've got my first batch going right now. Will update.
HTH
The Lalvin producing the best flavor isn't surprising. I've recently started to get a little bit into wine making and the little research I've done on wine yeast has taught we that some strains (and pardon me for not knowing the exact term) are aggressive toward other strains of yeast, meaning they kill them.
Like many others I'm hooked on this thread to the detriment of my day job. I want to do a few semi-controlled experiments making this stuff:
Here is what I already have and will have by the end of the week:
2 - 1 gallon glass jars
16 - Chinese Yeast Balls "HanHeng Taste":
16 Dried Yeast Balls Rice Cake Wine Chinese fermented glutinous sweet NEW | eBay
5 lbs Three Rings Thai Sweet Rice: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F2VESU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
8 lbs Thai Jasmine Rice - already have and eat on the regular - BJ's store brand, just happen to have.
Going to order:
couple packs of Angel Rice Leaven (need to be ordered) - future brew
Koji Starter (need to be ordered) - future brew
Premium Japanese Rice - future brew
I'm going to to a side by side with the Thai Sweet vs Thai Jasmin and the yeast balls. I'm going to let go 3-5 days in my upstairs closet which stays in the high 70's and then move down to basement which stays in the mid 60's for a total of 4 weeks. My goal is to yield 1 750ml bottle of rice wine from each one. After this comparison is completed I'm going to do the same thing with Angel Rice Leaven and then maybe with a Koji Starter + Sake Yeast (or wine yeast). I also want to try a recipe with Premium or Super Premium Polished Japanese Rice.
Here is some math that will need to be proved out, would love some input from those who know:
750ml - finished volume desired
figure 20% waste for liquid trapped in rice solids and lees/trub
figure 10% waste for me to taste along the way/prior to bottling
1071 ml - Target for liquid going into rice
1071 ml = 36.2 liquid ounces = 4.5 cups of water need to be absorbed by rice. I figure rice might already have some liquid in it but I don't care - I want to end up with more than I need for a 750mL bottle - I don't want to short it.
I plan on cooking rice in instant pot which allows for almost no evaporation of liquid so I go with 4.5 cups of water and 4.5 cups of rice. I'll keep updating over the next few months with results. Hopefully, I get the first two batches under way before the week is up.
Recipe 1&2 (variable will be Jasmine vs Thai Sweet Rice)
4.5 cups of rice uncooked, washed and rinsed. I'm not going to soak because I'm using instant pot pressure cooker - thoughts?
4.5 cups of filtered tap water to remove impurities and chlorine (I have soft water that is great for beer and wine making).
2 yeast balls smashed up - thoughts? is this enough?
spoon into 1 gal glass jar
3-5 days in warm closet
23-25 days in cooler basement
Extract Liquid and cold crash
(I might convert everything to metric and list by weight once I get around to measuring).
Here is what I already have and will have by the end of the week:
2 - 1 gallon glass jars
16 - Chinese Yeast Balls "HanHeng Taste":
16 Dried Yeast Balls Rice Cake Wine Chinese fermented glutinous sweet NEW | eBay5 lbs Three Rings Thai Sweet Rice: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F2VESU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
8 lbs Thai Jasmine Rice - already have and eat on the regular - BJ's store brand, just happen to have.
Going to order:
couple packs of Angel Rice Leaven (need to be ordered) - future brew
Koji Starter (need to be ordered) - future brew
Premium Japanese Rice - future brew
I'm going to to a side by side with the Thai Sweet vs Thai Jasmin and the yeast balls. I'm going to let go 3-5 days in my upstairs closet which stays in the high 70's and then move down to basement which stays in the mid 60's for a total of 4 weeks. My goal is to yield 1 750ml bottle of rice wine from each one. After this comparison is completed I'm going to do the same thing with Angel Rice Leaven and then maybe with a Koji Starter + Sake Yeast (or wine yeast). I also want to try a recipe with Premium or Super Premium Polished Japanese Rice.
Here is some math that will need to be proved out, would love some input from those who know:
750ml - finished volume desired
figure 20% waste for liquid trapped in rice solids and lees/trub
figure 10% waste for me to taste along the way/prior to bottling
1071 ml - Target for liquid going into rice
1071 ml = 36.2 liquid ounces = 4.5 cups of water need to be absorbed by rice. I figure rice might already have some liquid in it but I don't care - I want to end up with more than I need for a 750mL bottle - I don't want to short it.
I plan on cooking rice in instant pot which allows for almost no evaporation of liquid so I go with 4.5 cups of water and 4.5 cups of rice. I'll keep updating over the next few months with results. Hopefully, I get the first two batches under way before the week is up.
Recipe 1&2 (variable will be Jasmine vs Thai Sweet Rice)
4.5 cups of rice uncooked, washed and rinsed. I'm not going to soak because I'm using instant pot pressure cooker - thoughts?
4.5 cups of filtered tap water to remove impurities and chlorine (I have soft water that is great for beer and wine making).
2 yeast balls smashed up - thoughts? is this enough?
spoon into 1 gal glass jar
3-5 days in warm closet
23-25 days in cooler basement
Extract Liquid and cold crash
(I might convert everything to metric and list by weight once I get around to measuring).
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Ok. I have both the Jasmine and the Thai Sweet Rice fermenting. The Jasmine was prepared 7/1/2020 and Sweet Rice 7/3/2020. I ended up washing and soaking and steaming the sweet rice. The Jasmine rice wine smells quiet sour and is noticeably mushy with only a little bit of separation between rice and liquid. The Sweet Rice only 3 days in looks more promising. It doesn't have the sour smell and there is some distinct separation between clear liquid and rice solids. I'll give the Jasmine a few more days, but I don't see how I'm going to get any liquid out of this without adding water 1 week in, like I've seen in so many recipes.
Designergrrl
I <3 fungi
Huh. Something’s not right with your Jasmine rice for sure. I’ve been using medium-grain Jasmine, which works great. I’ve read that the longer-grain rice strains don’t break down well and I wonder if that’s what happened to you. The OP suggested specifically “Hom Mali” Thai Jasmine rice, which I found at my local Asian market. I usually get water level up to about 80-90% of the height of the rice within 2 days. No separation that early, but loads of juice visible.
The fact that it’s developed a sour smell at this point is also not a good sign. I think the BJ’s brand might not be the right strain.
You can just wait 4-6 weeks, or more, and see how it turns out. If bad, chalk it up to experience. If good, keep notes and replicate. Every ferment is a little different and many turn out if you are patient. Some liquify fast, some slow.
Hi! Thanks for the reply. I definitely saw a liquid level up to 80%-90% of the rice several days in, but most of the volume was occupied by rice mush. I gave it a stir too and it just seemed like one congealed mass. Now that I'm two weeks in I'm more optimistic. The "mush" is getting thinner and there seems to be some actual stratification between liquid and rice solids. The BJ's Jasmine rice is "Hom Mali" Rice.
Just to update on my progress. Both ferments seem to be doing well. I'm getting some stratification between liquid and solids, ever so slight. What I've noticed the most is the transition from a congealed, what I've been calling rice mush, thick consistency similar to oatmeal or cream of wheat, to a thinner more watery consistency. They both still have a little sour smell to them, but it hasn't gotten worse and I stole a taste of liquid from the Jasmine pot and it tasted quite pleasant and boozy. I'm a little over two weeks in, so probably only halfway there to being able to actually separate the liquid.
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I've made rice wine before but it was strictly for distillation.
I agree by itself was very pleasing.
I used yeast. I cant use Aspergillis due to my son having an immune issue where it can attack his lungs but yeah both the wine and the spirit I made from it was extremely smooth. I think I'll try your process for rice wine after the metheglin I'm gonna start this weekend.
Oh also I used Basmati rice with amalayse and iodine test
I agree by itself was very pleasing.
I used yeast. I cant use Aspergillis due to my son having an immune issue where it can attack his lungs but yeah both the wine and the spirit I made from it was extremely smooth. I think I'll try your process for rice wine after the metheglin I'm gonna start this weekend.
Oh also I used Basmati rice with amalayse and iodine test
cjeanean
Well-Known Member
Hi, everyone! I have joined the dark side--my first attempt at rice wine is currently on day 10 of fermentation! I have a couple questions about my progress, if you guys have time to answer.
--I made 2 batches, one with glutinous rice cooked stingy on the water (#1) and one softer (#2). One yeast ball each, total rice 1.5kg divided between two containers and cooked separately after soaking for 8hrs.
--I tasted on day 4, the drier ricer (#1) was like syrup while the softer (#2), though sweet, had a thinner mouthfeel and a slight bite to it.
--Smelled and tasted both today. #1 with drier rice has a smell reminiscent of rice pudding drowned in alcohol, definitely ethanol but soft instead of harsh. Tastes like cough syrup, very thick and no alcohol taste. #2 smelled like rice-scented rubbing alcohol lol, definitely lots of yeast at work! It's still insanely sweet and describing the taste is difficult--it has the sour edge, but not like really sour. Like the taste of the smell of sour, but not enough to really taste it? Idk
--#1 has fine, hair-like mold on the top pieces of rice, looks like the surface isn't very damp. #2's surface looks like a pile of slick, soggy rice dotted with matching goo (fungus?) and there are little spots of yellow with what appears to be teeny tiny gray dots in them. I assume spores?
--#1 doesn't have as much liquid as #2 (which I expected due to the extra bit of water used in cooking #2)
--I've been swirling the liquid, not shaking or stirring.
I know mold and/or fungus are expected, but since this is my first go, can you tell me if you think this looks normal? Pics are kinda difficult because of the color of the rice and angle, but hopefully they're good enough!
--I made 2 batches, one with glutinous rice cooked stingy on the water (#1) and one softer (#2). One yeast ball each, total rice 1.5kg divided between two containers and cooked separately after soaking for 8hrs.
--I tasted on day 4, the drier ricer (#1) was like syrup while the softer (#2), though sweet, had a thinner mouthfeel and a slight bite to it.
--Smelled and tasted both today. #1 with drier rice has a smell reminiscent of rice pudding drowned in alcohol, definitely ethanol but soft instead of harsh. Tastes like cough syrup, very thick and no alcohol taste. #2 smelled like rice-scented rubbing alcohol lol, definitely lots of yeast at work! It's still insanely sweet and describing the taste is difficult--it has the sour edge, but not like really sour. Like the taste of the smell of sour, but not enough to really taste it? Idk
--#1 has fine, hair-like mold on the top pieces of rice, looks like the surface isn't very damp. #2's surface looks like a pile of slick, soggy rice dotted with matching goo (fungus?) and there are little spots of yellow with what appears to be teeny tiny gray dots in them. I assume spores?
--#1 doesn't have as much liquid as #2 (which I expected due to the extra bit of water used in cooking #2)
--I've been swirling the liquid, not shaking or stirring.
I know mold and/or fungus are expected, but since this is my first go, can you tell me if you think this looks normal? Pics are kinda difficult because of the color of the rice and angle, but hopefully they're good enough!
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Hi all . Been reading through thread almost through it all. Some great tips thank you . i could not get tia or sushi rice were im from so i decided to get Arborio rice its 76.8 % carbohydrates so i thought would be good to try im using the leaven sachet. ill let you know how it goes.
Hi iv just started one with this rice how did your turn out pleease?
the last post before your's. the guy hasn't logged in since aug. probably going to have to patient for a response.
i know it's weird for people like me and you, but i've had to learn that most people here have lives outside brewing!
i just sent a package, and i knew it was the delivered the minute it was there! then had to grit my teeth ALL DAY, for them to get home from work to pick it up!
Its ok being a home brewer teaches you patients . Thank you for the response . Have you had any batches finish any good tips?and that guy hasn't logged in since June 2019
fraid not. sake is one alcoholic beverage that still escapes me.i always got sour non alcoholic rice water.
(but remember you can sprout your koji rice once it's fungi'd up in a oven with the litght on and get more spores. should been dark greenish. still got a bunch that i cleaned up on a petri plate. when i master sake, i will be a black belt alchy!
)i still haven't given up!
Im doing mine in a demi john with an air lock its started bubbling about an hour ago i put a little bit of turbo yeast in there for luck as i read it needs it with the leaven so im hopeful. already a lot of liquid building upfraid not. sake is one alcoholic beverage that still escapes me.i always got sour non alcoholic rice water.
(but remember you can sprout your koji rice once it's fungi'd up in a oven with the litght on and get more spores. should been dark greenish. still got a bunch that i cleaned up on a petri plate. when i master sake, i will be a black belt alchy!
i still haven't given up!
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when i was learning sake proccess, it was like malting barley sorta. you grew the mold on the cooked rice then added more rice and the koji was the "malt"?
but like i said i never had any luck getting alcohol. just something strangley pleasently tart.
Iv worked with amylase before on potatoes that worked out ok. thought id try this as iv heard the taste is awesome got ten packets of the leaven yeast even if i fail this time ill keep trying as i hear its a good probiotic in lower strength. i like making honey rice and raisin wine.
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