BYO Doppelbock recipe

Hi

This is the continuation of a discussion between the Baron and me:

The Baron pointed me to this artickle:
http://byo.com/feature/442.html

in which the following recipe is mentioned for a Doppelbock:

10 lbs. pale pilsner malt
2.5 lbs. Munich malt
1 lb. cara-pils or dextrin-type malt
1.5 lbs. carastan or pale caramel malt, 20¡ Lovibond
2 lbs. crystal malt, 60¡ Lovibond
1 lb. pale chocolate malt, 170¡ Lovibond
0.75 oz. Perle hops (7.3% alpha acid) for 90 min.
1 oz. Hallertauer hops (3.7% alpha acid): 0.5 oz. for 30 min., 0.5 oz. at end of boil
Wyeast 2206 (Bavarian lager)
2/3 cup corn sugar for priming

Step by Step:

Mash grains in 5.5 gal. water in a single infusion at 150¡ F for 60 min. Sparge with 170¡ F water to collect 5.5 gal.
Total boil is 90 min. At start of boil, add Perle hops. Boil 60 min. and add 0.5 oz. Hallertauer hops. Boil 30 min. more and add 0.5 oz. Hallertauer hops. Chill to 45¡ F and pitch yeast in a starter.
Ferment at 45¡ F for three days. Raise to 50¡ F for three days. Raise to 55¡. Rack into secondary when gravity reaches less than 1.020. Cool to 40¡ F and ferment to 1.008 (about three more days). Age at 40¡ F until clear (seven to 14 days). Bottle and prime. Condition in the bottle as long as desired (30 to 60 days)

There are a few things which I think make this Doppelbock not very authentic:

saccrification rest at 150¡ F for 60 min; and ferment to 1.008
This seems way to low for the FG of a Doppelbock. Think about the style as liquid bread. The FG should be be at least close to 1.020.

1 lb. pale chocolate malt, 170¡ Lovibond
I'm not sure about pale chocolate. But you don't want to have the roasted bitterness from 1lb of chocolate malt.

0.75 oz. Perle hops (7.3% alpha acid) for 90 min.
1 oz. Hallertauer hops (3.7% alpha acid): 0.5 oz. for 30 min., 0.5 oz. at end of boil
This will give you to much bitterness and the hop-flavor/aroma is not desired in this style.


Kai

We should invite Colby as a guest thread participant. Did you notice that their Aventinus clone includes an option for a German lager yeast? Everything else I've read indicates a top cropping ale yeast (hefeweizen type).

I know they print a lot of recipes each month, and get great brewer feedback on some of them, but I'm sure not all of them.

Baron von BeeGee said:

We should invite Colby as a guest thread participant.

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possible. But I'm not sure if my expeirience is a match here. Most of my knowledge on this style comes from american literature and from tasting the most common German Doppelbock examples. To me, these examples define faily narrow parameters.

Did you notice that their Aventinus clone includes an option for a German lager yeast? Everything else I've read indicates a top cropping ale yeast (hefeweizen type).

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Only in America.
German brewers are not allowed to put wheat malt into a bottom fermenting beer. And you actually want the clove/banana aromas in the Aventius. It won't be much of a clone (bad mutation actually) if you use a lager yeast.

I'll have to read both artickles tonight.

I know they print a lot of recipes each month, and get great brewer feedback on some of them, but I'm sure not all of them.

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Maybe I'll write them an e-mail, expressing my concerns with the authenticity of the styles. This is actually quite important to me since BYO is a widely read and followed magazine. If they deviate from the style to much, many new brewers will get the wrong impression on these styles.

I guess I'm seen as the style-nazi now. I guess that would make for a rather controversial user name and avatar.

Kai

Kaiser said:

possible. But I'm not sure if my expeirience is a match here.

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Not so much for a Hannity and Colmes type discussion, but just to see where they got their research from and how they derived their recipes. I love BYO and read it cover to cover as soon as it comes, but at the end of the day it is just one source of information out of many. I always find a recipe I like, but I really go for the equipment fabrication articles.

Kaiser said:

German brewers are not allowed to put wheat malt into a bottom fermenting beer.

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Huh? Where did you get that one?

Mikey said:

Huh? Where did you get that one?

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I'm pretty sure he got that from the Reinheitsgebot.

Baron von BeeGee said:

I'm pretty sure he got that from the Reinheitsgebot.

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The Reinheitsgebot was written long before anyone knew that yeast existed.

Baron von BeeGee said:

I'm pretty sure he got that from the Reinheitsgebot.

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yep, only barley malt, water, hops and yeast are allowed for bottom fermenting beers. Some Hefe Weizens however, are bottled with a lager yeast. This kind of yeast is more resistant to autolysis.

Kai

The Complete Reinheitsgebot Text Translated
"We hereby proclaim and decree, by Authority of our Province, that henceforth in the Duchy of Bavaria, in the country as well as in the cities and marketplaces, the following rules apply to the sale of beer:

From Michaelmas to Georgi, the price for one Mass [Bavarian Liter 1,069] or one Kopf [bowl-shaped container for fluids, not quite one Mass], is not to exceed one Pfennig Munich value, and

From Georgi to Michaelmas, the Mass shall not be sold for more than two Pfennig of the same value, the Kopf not more than three Heller [Heller usually one-half Pfennig].

If this not be adhered to, the punishment stated below shall be administered.

Should any person brew, or otherwise have, other beer than March beer, it is not to be sold any higher than one Pfennig per Mass.

Furthermore, we wish to emphasize that in future in all cities, markets and in the country, the only ingredients used for the brewing of beer must be Barley, Hops and Water. Whosoever knowingly disregards or transgresses upon this ordinance, shall be punished by the Court authorities' confiscating such barrels of beer, without fail.

Should, however, an innkeeper in the country, city or markets buy two or three pails of beer (containing 60 Mass) and sell it again to the common peasantry, he alone shall be permitted to charge one Heller more for the Mass of the Kopf, than mentioned above. Furthermore, should there arise a scarcity and subsequent price increase of the barley (also considering that the times of harvest differ, due to location), WE, the Bavarian Duchy, shall have the right to order curtailments for the good of all concerned."

A later amendment includes 'yeast' as an allowable ingredient, but makes no mention of top or bottom fermenting.

I think the purity law is one of the most misquoted documents I've ever seen - lots of people think it also governs what type of metals must be used to brew in or decrees that a decoction mash must be used, etc..

Mikey said:

A later amendment includes 'yeast' as an allowable ingredient, but makes no mention of top or bottom fermenting.

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A lot of amendments have been made to this law. Especially in the 1990s to align with some of the European Union requirements. But that mostly affects top fermenting beers.

There have been a frew threads about this.

Kai

Got a link? I'd like to read up.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=40142&postcount=8; I don't fully agree with the link in this one though.

Well, looks like there have not been as many discussions on this as I thought we had. We can always start one

Kai

wikipedia has quite a bit about it, as do other sites. I know amendments were added to specify yeast and wheat as acceptable ingredients, as well as specifying that wheat may not be used with bottom fermenting yeasts. According to my research, there are some German wheat beers that skirt the law by using bottom fermenting bottling strains in wheat beers which is technically not allowed.

Kaiser (or anybody else), question...

If I were to do a decoction on my weizenbock (and I now think it is appropriate for the style)...wouldn't this require leaving the main mash at protein rest temperature for longer than 20 minutes. Furthermore, isn't 20 minutes the maximum recommended protein rest for a wheat beer? Or is this okay? Seems like the main mash would stay at protein rest temps for at least 30 minutes (pulling decoction, resting, boiling, returning).

Baron von BeeGee said:

According to my research, there are some German wheat beers that skirt the law by using bottom fermenting bottling strains in wheat beers which is technically not allowed.

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The "German Wheat Beer" book mentions this too, but says that it is legal. I can also remember reading this in the Reinheitsgebot.

Kai

Baron von BeeGee said:

If I were to do a decoction on my weizenbock (and I now think it is appropriate for the style)...wouldn't this require leaving the main mash at protein rest temperature for longer than 20 minutes. Furthermore, isn't 20 minutes the maximum recommended protein rest for a wheat beer? Or is this okay? Seems like the main mash would stay at protein rest temps for at least 30 minutes (pulling decoction, resting, boiling, returning).

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I thought about this too. But you can pull about 40% of the mash after 10min. This part will not be subjected to the longer protein rest and should retain many of the larger proteins that you want to keep for head retention and such.

There are also mash schedules, where you have 2 saccrification rests. One at 64C (maltose) and another one at 72C (dextrins). You can set the maltose/dextring ratio by the length of the maltose rest. In order to get to 72C you can use a tick decoction. This is also masch schedule that was mentioned in the "Wheat Beer" book.

If you do a single decoction I'd recommend pulling it from the protein rest after 10 min. You will get to decoct a larger amout of the mash this way. Try to use German malts (they have Weyerman at your LHBS).

Kai

Alas, the malts came from Austin Homebrew (better selection, and spend >$60 and it's cheaper than driving), so they are in hand. I'm sold on the decoction for this recipe, but not convinced I'll do it this weekend. I'd also like the opportunity to compare the recipe both ways. But I might get a wild hair and just do it...I actually acquired a keggle (sans fittings) today for $60, so if I can get that rigged up I could do the decoction in my old brew kettle.

I got my starter prepared tonight, so I'm committed to brewing one way or the other! I'll probably hit it Sat. a.m.

Baron von BeeGee said:

I'd also like the opportunity to compare the recipe both ways.

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What do you mean with this? Are you plannig to make the recipe twice?

Kai

Kaiser said:

What do you mean with this? Are you plannig to make the recipe twice?

Kai

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I'm planning to make it as many times as necessary to get what I want (good weizenbock). Unless I decide I don't like weizenbocks at some point. I'm starting with an Aventinus clone which is a beer I really like, but I'll modify it to my tastebuds as necessary.

Incidentally, I did the decoction this morning and my #'s were way off. I only got about a 10F rise after returning 2g of boiling decoction to my mash. I had to add another 2g of boiling water to get it to 150F, but there's something fishy about the temps in this mash (hot spots, cold spots, hot infusions having little effect). Maybe I started too early and wasn't awake. It does smell good, though!

If it doesn't convert I'll probably have to do another decoction to raise the temp as I'm out of headroom in my cooler.

Well, this was one of those brewdays where nothing went terribly smoothly, but the bottom line is 5g of 1.074 Weizenbock wort in the bucket pitched with 1.5L of kraeusening 3068. I had anticipated 70% efficiency due to the large percentage of wheat (which I never get a high eff. on) and got 67%. Runoff was painfully slow...I think I crushed the wheat too much.

I'm not sure why I'm sticking with this thread (other than laziness), but in any case I racked to secondary tonight and so far so good! This one is much more phenolic (ina good way) than the hefeweizen and is sitting at 1014 (down from 1074), so 8%abv at the moment. I don't think it'll go past 1012 if it goes down anymore at all which is pretty much okay at this point. No point in a detailed taste report until it's bottled and ready, though, other than to say the sample went down pretty well.

Baron von BeeGee said:

This one is much more phenolic (ina good way) than the hefeweizen and is sitting at 1014 (down from 1074),

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This is good, since this aroma is expected to fade as the beer ages. Was the FG expected to drop so low?

Kai

Promash estimated 1012, but it seems to for everything? I didn't have a specific FG in mind, particularly as my mash was all over the place. Hopefully things will go smoother next time. I think 1012-1014 is a good number for this beer.

Just racked to the bottling bucket. 1014 it is, for an exact 8% abv (according to Promash). I'm enjoying a sample now and I believe I came much, much closer with this one than I did with my Weihenstephan clone. The bitterness seems right (although that may change after carbonation). I went for 19 IBU's in this one, which should be pretty much in line with the BU:GU ratio for a Weizenbock.

It is definitely very malty. I'd like to attribute that to the decoction, but it may just be the grains. In any case, it has a very nice and strong maltiness that I really like, and it is also quite phenolic (in the good way). The color is nice, too...Promash nailed it at 11 SRM.

Hopefully the bottling goes well. I'm going with 6.5oz of corn sugar for 3.55 volumes CO2. I'd go higher, but I'd worry.

I'm feeling good about this one after my last couple batches have been so-so.

Sampled a Weizenbock tonight and while it still needs another week or two of carb'ing, it really, really tastes good. Very happy with this one (and hopefully the Hefe2.0 I just bottled). I think it's really quite close to an Aventinus, but I'll have to do a side by side in a few weeks as I've found my memory sometimes tricks me, and side by sides can be very instructional. It definitely packs a nice kick at 8%, but I'd never know it from the taste.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Promash estimated 1012, but it seems to for everything? I didn't have a specific FG in mind, particularly as my mash was all over the place. Hopefully things will go smoother next time. I think 1012-1014 is a good number for this beer.

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Okay I would not have noticed this if you had not have bumped the thread, but here goes... Promash can't possibly take into account all the factors governing FG can it? I mean everything from your mash pH to your thickness to your temp to your malt to your diastatic power to your etc. all have adverse affects on FG don't they? Surely Promash uses a pre-determined formula to calculate this. Promash is good, but I can't see it being that good.

No, I don't think it's that good. My thought was that it might take into account your grist and get a rough estimate of where the FG should be based on how fermentable your grains are (2-row vs crystal etc.). But I don't think it actually does this, either. If I get my laptop back today I'll test it out with a 100% crystal grist.

Baron von BeeGee said:

No, I don't think it's that good. My thought was that it might take into account your grist and get a rough estimate of where the FG should be based on how fermentable your grains are (2-row vs crystal etc.). But I don't think it actually does this, either. If I get my laptop back today I'll test it out with a 100% crystal grist.

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BeerSmith is using the yeast attenuation for estimating the FG. Promash might do the same.

Kai

Kaiser said:

BeerSmith is using the yeast attenuation for estimating the FG. Promash might do the same.

Kai

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That's probably correct and easy enough to check (except I left my laptop in my car). It does seem like it would be easy enough to assign a coefficient to a grain indicating how fermentable it is, on average. And then they could start taking mash schedules into account, and...

weizenbock extract recipe?

Tasting is imminent (5:30pm). I've got 4 Weizenbocks which seem to be pretty well ready, and 2 Hefe2.0's which I haven't cracked yet and I expect are premature, but what the hey. I also hope to resample the Kaiser's Maibock.

So, I think I gave this thread the kiss of death somehow. Anyways, my attention is now drifting towards doing a Doppelbock as my Christmas brew which the Kaiser tells me will be ready around Lent. My SIL will be here to help with the spawn and I'll be on vacation which of course means: decoction. I'd like to use the Breiss "undermodified" (parentheses intentional) Pilsener malt I bought unless an all-Munich base would be better. I've seen combos of 6L/10L Munich, as well as Munich mixed with Pilsener. I'd like to be as traditional as possible, but I'm not opposed to some Carafa if it will help.

I'm leaning towards...
12# Munich 10L
5# Pilsener
0.25# Carafa II 400L
24 IBU derived from Hersbrucker
Bavarian Lager yeast

Questions: is 4oz Carafa too much? Should I add it for the last 10 minutes or so of the mash? I'd like to get to around 20L in the finished brew.

Ditch the Pilsener and go all-Munich?

I'd kind of like to avoid crystal in order to focus on malty goodness and not crystal sweetness. I can setup my mash schedule to lean towards unfermentables to keep the FG up around 1020.

I'd say 4oz Carafa for a 20L batch is to much. I would not use more than 2oz and then only the dehusked Carafa Special.

My Doppelbock recipe looks like this:

91% Munich I (light Munich)
7% CaraMunich II
1.5% Aromatic
0.5 % Carafa Special

I also augmented with about 1lb of DME to reach a starting extract of 19.5 *P. One hop addition of Hallertauer gets me 25 IBU.

A Doppelbock should definitely be brewed with Munich as the base malt, though a small portion of Pilsner may be beneficial for having some insurance against killing to many enzymes during the decoction. Since I bought a bag of light Munich I used that, but if you have the choice, go with dark Munich. I think using dark Carmel malt is fine for the style as long as it is not to dark. The Aromatic is a left over from the initial recipe which was a clone and I may ditch this next time around. The carafa is for darkening the color a little more. Be careful with roasted grains in this style as a Doppelbock should not be roasty. It's more malty and sweet.

I also suggest a decoction mash for this beer. When I did my last Doppelbock I used a modified double decoction mash which is well suited for fairly well modified malts (like modern lager malts):

mash in at 40*C with a liquor/grist ratio of about 2.5 - 3.0 kg/L. You don't want to make it to thin of a mash since you want to get a starting extract of > 18*P for your wort with a boil time of about 90 min.

Wait 20-30 min and then pull the first decoction large enough to get to to 67*C. This will be about 60% of the mash. Pull this as a thick decoction with enough liquid so you can still stir the deoction pretty easily. Since this is such a large portion of the mash you should rest it at 55*C for 10 min and at 72*C for 15 min. A significant portion of the starches should be converted before you bring the mash to a boil. Don't rush heating the decoction it will only cause scorching. It took me 90 min to go through the rests for this 1st decoction and bring it to a boil. Since I keep the decoction liquid enough and work on a small flame I don't have to stir the mash very often and don't get scorching even though I use a cheap enamel pot.

Boil the decoction for 20 min. Then add enough of the boiling decoction to your mash to raise the mash temp to 55*C. Let that rest for 20 min while the remaining decoction is still boiling. You may add water to cover the evaporation loss. After 20 use the decoction to get the mash to 67*C and rest for 45-60 min. Make check for conversion. Since you killed a lot of the enzymes and are using an enzymatic weaker base malt your conversion might be slower than usual. Luckily this is counteracted by the long dough in at a lower temp and the decoction that makes the starched more accessible.
Pull your 2nd and final deoction to reach a mash-out temp of 75*C and boil this decoction for 10-20 min.

The advantage of a decoction done like this is that you end up boiling as much mash as you would with a triple decoction, but you don't rest the mash at the protein rest only for a short and well defined time (as opposed to the conventional triple decoction where it can easily sit there for 45-60 min), which should be better for modern malts. This mash is also shorter than a regular triple decoction. One one third of the decoction boils for 40 min, the other 2 thirds boil for about 20 min which will give you a lot of color.

You will be shooting for a limit of attenuation of 75-78% and an actual attenuation that is 3-6% lower than that. This 3-6% difference are fermentable sugars that the yeast didn't finish which will give you the desired sweetness of the beer. This is only to be seen as an FYI since using a southern German yeast that flocculates well will give you this.

Kai

I knew I could count on you, Kai. A couple questions...

Are you sure about the Carafa? It's been a while since I've had a Celebrator, but I could have sworn it had the roasty/coffee hint of taste to it. I have a fresh 4-pack in the fridge tonight that I picked up on my way home for some in-depth research later tonight.

I like the looks of your recipe. I have on hand some 6L and 10L Munich, but I will have to buy some more regardless. I will probably go with at least 50% 6L as it should have slightly more diastatic power than the 10L and I'll toss in 10-15% Pilsener for insurance. I'll try to incorporate some CaraMunich such that I can reduce the Carafa and keep my 20L color.

I might do a bastardization of your mash schedule (which I like btw). I'm planning to dough-in the night before at room temp and let it hydrate overnight (unless I brew in the afternoon in which case I will do this in the morning). From there I will infuse to acid rest, infuse to protein, and then start decocting.

I will definitely be shooting for a high FG, but the first time is usually all about discovery... OG should be ~18.5P according to my plans, but even if I collect extra wort to boil (which I probably will) I may have to supplement with DME which is fine.

I checked my notes an yes, Celebrator has a roasty finish. I'm not a big fan of roasty so I try to avoid it. But make sure you don't overdo this.

When you dough in over night make sure the water is cold. You don't want the lactic bacteria on the malt to get to active.

Kai

Yeah, I'm trying a Celebrator now and it's definitely a little bit roasty, but it's not a major flavor component...just there in the background. Pretty nice, to me, but I do like a little roast. Optimator is also readily available so I'm sure I'll do some more in-depth research before brewing.

The dough-in will definitely be cold...ground water temp this time of year plus stored in my garage should keep it ~50F. I have no other reason to try this except that I've read it's a traditional technique (though not ubiquitous) and I've never tried it.

Hmmmm...having an Optimator now. Seems just a touch lighter in color than the Celebrator and not quite as roasty, though there's still just a touch. The Optimator seems far less complex in terms of the malty flavors than the Celebrator. Less roast/coffee/toffee, less raisiny, less everything, though still a good beer. I think it only beats Celebrator on the basis of price, however.

As long as I dug this up in a search, I might as well post my recipe. I know I risk incurring the wrath of the Kaiser, but I like the roastiness of Celebrator and hence went with 4oz of Carafa II. Actually, it's probably more like 3oz since BOSTONBREWIN' was eating it as I was grinding it:

Oliviator Doppelbock I

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 17.25
Anticipated OG: 1.078 Plato: 18.90
Anticipated SRM: 21.5
Anticipated IBU: 25.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 120 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
46.4 8.00 lbs. Munich Malt(2-row) America 1.036 6
20.3 3.50 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.036 2
23.2 4.00 lbs. Munich Malt(light) America 1.036 10
8.7 1.50 lbs. CaraMunich 60 France 1.032 46
1.4 0.25 lbs. Carafa II Germany 1.030 425

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
52.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Whole 4.75 25.0 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 2206 Bavarian Lager

In the books, except for pitching which will take a few hours yet. Despite a few mishaps, I think it will turn out pretty well:
- High dough-in temp, but first infusion required more water than anticipated to hit acid rest.
- pH at 5-5.2 following acid rest (good), still at 5-5.2 following protein rest (tested using Colorphast strips).
- 150F instead of 155F following second decoction, but corrected with an infusion.
- Somewhat slow runoff, but not too bad. Only wound up with 8.5g instead of my anticipated 10g? Not sure where 1.5g went.
- Despite less collected wort than expected, efficiency of 83% on a relatively large beer. I have to attribute this to BOSTON's grainmill and superior "hand crank" action. I also only collected 5g (instead of 5.5g) and thought about topping up to get the OG back where I had calculated it, but I'll let this one ride and see how it goes.

The wort tasted great...very malty with a hint of roast. Now to endure the waiting game, which, being an ale brewer I'm not really used to.

I brewed mine on Saturday. I even got up at 5 to make sure that the brew-day doesn't interfer to much with the other family activities. To get a good efficiency I tried to grind the malt rather fine and also doughed-in with cold water the night before. The Baron mentioned this one.

And I got to play with the pH meter a little. I ended up utilizing the acid rest (it really worked and lowered the pH by 0.2) and added some acid malt (2% to get me another 0.2 pH drop) to get the mash pH between 5.2 and 5.3. I'll certainly will lower the redidual alkalinity of the brewing water next time around. This was the first 100% dark Munich malt beer that I ever brewed. And yes, the decoction killed to many enzymes and I had problems converting the mash. So I added a pound of Pilsner as well. But that still didn't help and I had to sparge with a slight iodine reaction left. I'll see how that will effect the beer. Sparging took 3 hrs but I got 82% efficiency wich allowed me to make 21L of 19*P wort with my 5gal cooler / 6 gal brew-pot set-up. But next time I may want to go partial mash with this beer to save some time and worries. I just didn't feel like buying DME.

The fast ferment test stopped at 4.7 *P (75% limit of attenuation). This means the final beer is expected to be somewhere arount 5.1 - 5.3*P which is a little higher than I wanted it, but still ok for this beer. I guess the low enzyme content of the Munich affected the fermentability more towards the non-fermentable side than I expected it to.

Kai