Sanke Fermenter Upgrade Question

I have been fermenting my 10 gallon batches in a sanke keg using a BrewersHardware.com Sanke-Fermenter-Kit:

http://www.brewershardware.com/Sanke-Fermenter-Kits/

While this works great... the problem is cleaning the keg:
I have built a keg washer (to use for corny's, carboys, and sankes) that sprays warm oxyclean, I have soaked, I have brushed, but I'm still not 100% sure it's clean. When I look in the opening using a flashlight, there appears to be "stuff" about where the 10 gallon mark would be.

What I'm thinking about:
I still have the 12" cut outs from my keggle conversions. I'm thinking about cutting a smaller opening (8"-10"), in the fermenter keg and then finding a gasket of some type and clamping the larger cutout over the hole. This would give me better access to see whats going on and possibly clean by hand.

Cutting the hole would be no problem. Finding a suitable gasket material (I like to transfer with co2 pressure) and a clamping method are my concerns. I don't have GreenMonti's mad welding skills, nor do I live next door to him so the clamping method needs to be more mechanical.
I'm thinking of a couple braces that would slide under the ring on the top of the keg and then maybe thumb screws that would push down on the new "lid" to secure it.

So what do you think?
Things I'm missing, recommendations advice??

Thanks,
Ed

I made a fermenter from a 15 gallon sanke by spliting a 1x4 in half and long enough to stretch the width of the keg. Then I bolted it down by drilling out the drain holes in the rim, because it was easer then making new holes, then held it down with a 3" screw and wing nut. I used a eye bolt with washer and a wing nut to put pressure on the lid, mine was a piece of plexy because I wanted to be able to see the fermentation process. I originaly tried a silicone baking mat for the gasket, but it was just a little too then and I didn't cut my keg just perfectly circular. I found a old pressure cooker gasket that worked great and I kept the baking mat because of the trouble and expense to get it. You could use two braces on each side of the hole from your original cut out and it should work great. this link is what I kinda followed.
good luck and keep us informed. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2114480

I had stuff on the inside of my sanke fermenter that even PBW would not get off. Turns out it was beer stone, a few washes with CLR and it's clean as a whistle.

kennethm said:

I made a fermenter from a 15 gallon sanke by spliting a 1x4 in half and long enough to stretch the width of the keg. Then I bolted it down by drilling out the drain holes in the rim, because it was easer then making new holes, then held it down with a 3" screw and wing nut. I used a eye bolt with washer and a wing nut to put pressure on the lid, mine was a piece of plexy because I wanted to be able to see the fermentation process. I originaly tried a silicone baking mat for the gasket, but it was just a little too then and I didn't cut my keg just perfectly circular. I found a old pressure cooker gasket that worked great and I kept the baking mat because of the trouble and expense to get it. You could use two braces on each side of the hole from your original cut out and it should work great. this link is what I kinda followed.
good luck and keep us informed. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2114480

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response...
That's real close to what I'm looking for.
The simple fastening method is real close to what I have in mind.
I'm hoping that using the cutout from another keg which should be shaped the same will provide a nice seal if I can locate the right gasket.

jcdillin said:

I had stuff on the inside of my sanke fermenter that even PBW would not get off. Turns out it was beer stone, a few washes with CLR and it's clean as a whistle.

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It might be beer stone.
It is high enough on the side that my eye's play tricks on me when I try to look at it. I have been meaning to get a small mirror so I can try to get a better look but keep forgetting. I have soaked the keg for 48 hours in oxyclean. I attached strips of cloth to a dowel rod and spun it, wetted with oxyclean, in a drill (you could feel the cloth slapping the side of the keg). I put about a gallon of water in it and steamed it for over 30 minutes on a propane burner... I hate that little hole :cross:

kennethm said:

this link is what I kinda followed.
good luck and keep us informed. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2114480

Click to expand...

Hmmm... that link opens up a "response" page for this thread.

Walker said:

Hmmm... that link opens up a "response" page for this thread.

Click to expand...

Yea... sorry, I searched for "kegmenter" and found a link to a thread on another site.

On my kettle I do something similar to what you propose. I use a cutout from another keg and i clamp it on top of the kettle after the boil is done and it has been cooled down. I pressurize my kettle to like 2 PSI with O2 and push my wort into my fermentor. Once its in there I just let the O2 bubble up for a min or two to oxygenate my wort. I'll post a pic if you would like.

I use a gasket from a pressure cooker, place the top/lid on that. I use a piece of rubber to cover the hole in the lid and place a SS bar across the top of the kettle. Using J bolts and wing nuts, I grab the handle area and pull down on the bar. I have a fitting in the lid for the O2. I can't get much pressure in the kettle or the gasket pushes out the side and I loose my seal. So its not the best idea for a pressure setup if that's what you might want. It works for what I do.

GreenMonti said:

On my kettle I do something similar to what you propose. I use a cutout from another keg and i clamp it on top of the kettle after the boil is done and it has been cooled down. I pressurize my kettle to like 2 PSI with O2 and push my wort into my fermentor. Once its in there I just let the O2 bubble up for a min or two to oxygenate my wort. I'll post a pic if you would like.

I use a gasket from a pressure cooker, place the top/lid on that. I use a piece of rubber to cover the hole in the lid and place a SS bar across the top of the kettle. Using J bolts and wing nuts, I grab the handle area and pull down on the bar. I have a fitting in the lid for the O2. I can't get much pressure in the kettle or the gasket pushes out the side and I loose my seal. So its not the best idea for a pressure setup if that's what you might want. It works for what I do.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response.
A picture would be much appreciated. Sounds real close to what I pictured in my head. There won't be much pressure in play, just enough to transfer to a secondary or keg.

How much larger is your "lid" than the hole?
About what diameter are each?

Thanks,
Ed

Well I know this is not the direction you were heading but how about a 12inch chunk of stainless steel chain (find it at boat stores) and swirl it with the PBW/BKF to break up any stubborn gunk.

Another option (Though you already mentioned welding could be a challenge) is a larger port - For the life of me I can't find the site, but it's linked around here somewhere...

They sell a sanke keg with a 4" sanitary port on the top. You could get your arm in there... They make a 4" fermenting cap just like you have now, too.

I've looked and looked...

Edit - Found it

It's $130 for the fermenting cap (Or maybe you could get Derrin to make you one?)
I'm sure you can get a 4" sanitary pipe to cannibalize on eBay for cheap.
It would keep you pressurizable...

Food for thought.

Thanks for the replies everyone, please keep em coming...

SweetSounds: $130 looks like it is just for the lid. Then I'd still need to get and install a "port" in the keg. I'd like to end up with 2 of these, so I'm hoping for a lower cost solution.

j_jones84: I have not tried "swishing" a section of chain, but I have exhausted many other cleaning ideas. I kinda frightened myself with one brain child as I was putting together (I bought all the parts) a ghetto attachment for my pressure washer that would allow me to get inside and at a 90` angle... this image of a piece of ss tubing and a spear-gun popped into my head and I walked away.

Here's a few things to add:

The "cutouts" I have available from my keggle build are about 13" in diameter. So I'm leaning toward cutting a hole smaller than 13" in my fermenter keg. The question is how much smaller? That depends on what I can come up with for a gasket.

Homer Buckets have a rubber seal in the lid that would be just about the perfect size, but I'm not sure how good a seal it would make or if it may impart anything bad into my fermenting beer.

I thought about a silicone baking sheet, but have never even seen one. I don't know if it would be thick enough or big enough for this application. I also don't know what the cost may be (google... i know).

GreenMonti mentioned a pressure cooker gasket... this seems to have the right "properties", but I don't know if that means I have to find a cooker to cannibalize, or if the gaskets are readily available as replacement parts. Obviously the size of the cooker would determine the size of the gasket, so I need to find out what's available before I cut the keg.

I have somewhat limited space above the keg in my ferm cabinet. So I'd like to keep the "clamping" mechanism as short as possible.

Thanks folks... keep the ideas coming,

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

I have somewhat limited space above the keg in my ferm cabinet. So I'd like to keep the "clamping" mechanism as short as possible.
Ed

Click to expand...

It's a little off the wall, but:
How robust is your ferm cabinet roof?
I'm thinking drop a sheet of SS or something over the hole, with a gasket, and use one of those cheap screw up scissor jacks from a car to press up against the ceiling. You could press pretty hard if your ferm chamber is stout enough...

What about cutting a slit in clear (Tygon) tubing or something more pliable, and putting that around the edge of the hole in the sanke and using that for a gasket? I've been thinking about doing this. Has anyone tried it? - Dwain

Why not just cut the top off in the shape of a corny lid and use that for cleaning. Here is an example pic https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50l-sanke-fermenter-w-corny-lid-146192/ You can buy the lids here http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3_89&products_id=843 for $8. This is what I'm thinking about doing with one of my Sankes.

Ricand said:

Why not just cut the top off in the shape of a corny lid and use that for cleaning. Here is an example pic https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50l-sanke-fermenter-w-corny-lid-146192/ You can buy the lids here http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3_89&products_id=843 for $8. This is what I'm thinking about doing with one of my Sankes.

Click to expand...

I would love to be able to do that, but I wouldn't know where to begin to cut the whole the right size & shape...

Thanks for the feedback guys...

Dwain said:

What about cutting a slit in clear (Tygon) tubing or something more pliable, and putting that around the edge of the hole in the sanke and using that for a gasket? I've been thinking about doing this. Has anyone tried it? - Dwain

Click to expand...

I have thought of it. You'd still have to deal with how the ends of the tube met in order to get a good seal. Also, not sure how "compressible" the tube would be to make up for imperfections in the cutout.

Ricand said:

Why not just cut the top off in the shape of a corny lid and use that for cleaning. Here is an example pic https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50l-sanke-fermenter-w-corny-lid-146192/ You can buy the lids here http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3_89&products_id=843 for $8. This is what I'm thinking about doing with one of my Sankes.

Click to expand...

Other than the fabrication required to get a corny lid to fit/seal, I still need the sanke coupling to use the fermenter assembly I have.

Ed

I ferment in a sanke and I give it the 2 day Oxy/hot water soak. then blast it out. But just to be sure I boil 1 gal of water in it before next use. I have yet to have any kinda prob. doing this. But it did take me a year to get up the nerve to even try using the sanke as a ferm. I was to worried about not getting it clean.

Ricand said:

Why not just cut the top off in the shape of a corny lid and use that for cleaning. Here is an example pic https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50l-sanke-fermenter-w-corny-lid-146192/ You can buy the lids here http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3_89&products_id=843 for $8. This is what I'm thinking about doing with one of my Sankes.

Click to expand...

F.T.W. Perfect idea if you must get your hands in there...

Ohio-Ed said:

Other than the fabrication required to get a corny lid to fit/seal, I still need the sanke coupling to use the fermenter assembly I have.

Ed

Click to expand...

Forget the sanke coupling? Just drill holes in the corny lid for compression fittings to hold a blow-off/pressurization tube, and racking cane!

You could pull this off for $20.00 total...

I'd be reluctant to toss a good sanke fermenter cap too, but it solves your issue for next to no investment (Especially if you have a corny to rob a lid from) and completely eliminates the pressurization and sealing issues. Another bonus is the corny lid has a pressure relief built in - One of the biggest arguments against using Derrin's fermenter kit is because we pressurize without a relief.

Having said that, the reason I didn't go that way was because my AB kegs aren't smooth on the top - I'd have to put a triclover cap on the sanke port, flip the keg over, and install the corny lid in the smooth bottom of the keg...

OOooooo From the thread linked above - This could solve all of your issues in one shot! Keep your sanke-tap stuff, and get your hand inside the keg for scrubbing:

shredderator said:

My lhbs had a keg for sale that was converted like this, but the corny lid was put in the top, mounted off center. This allowed you to siphon off any trub from the bottom using the corny post, and then serve using the sanke tap. all in one primary/secondary/serving keg, it was a pretty cool idea.

Click to expand...

SweetSounds said:

F.T.W. Perfect idea if you must get your hands in there...


Forget the sanke coupling? Just drill holes in the corny lid for compression fittings to hold a blow-off/pressurization tube, and racking cane!

You could pull this off for $20.00 total...

I'd be reluctant to toss a good sanke fermenter cap too, but it solves your issue for next to no investment (Especially if you have a corny to rob a lid from) and completely eliminates the pressurization and sealing issues. Another bonus is the corny lid has a pressure relief built in - One of the biggest arguments against using Derrin's fermenter kit is because we pressurize without a relief.

Having said that, the reason I didn't go that way was because my AB kegs aren't smooth on the top - I'd have to put a triclover cap on the sanke port, flip the keg over, and install the corny lid in the smooth bottom of the keg...

OOooooo From the thread linked above - This could solve all of your issues in one shot! Keep your sanke-tap stuff, and get your hand inside the keg for scrubbing:

Click to expand...

I don't think it would be so simple to get the corny lid to seal as just cutting a hole in the sanke. I think the curvature of the sanke (especially if you offset the corny opening) alone would be a problem. I think if you cut the "opening" off of a corny and welded it to the sanke, you'd be ok, but then there is that fabrication issue.

I'm curious about your statement of using Derrin's fermenter without a pressure relief. To transfer, I apply less than 5psi co2 to the "vent" and the pressure relief is the diptube. I use a short section of thermoplastic tube to connect a co2 fitting to the vent with no clamps... any pressure and it would pop right off. Are you using it differently?

I think I probably have everything needed except maybe a gasket to try the over sized cutout approach, so there is not much cost involved.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

I don't think it would be so simple to get the corny lid to seal as just cutting a hole in the sanke. I think the curvature of the sanke (especially if you offset the corny opening) alone would be a problem. I think if you cut the "opening" off of a corny and welded it to the sanke, you'd be ok, but then there is that fabrication issue.

I'm curious about your statement of using Derrin's fermenter without a pressure relief. To transfer, I apply less than 5psi co2 to the "vent" and the pressure relief is the diptube. I use a short section of thermoplastic tube to connect a co2 fitting to the vent with no clamps... any pressure and it would pop right off. Are you using it differently?

I think I probably have everything needed except maybe a gasket to try the over sized cutout approach, so there is not much cost involved.

Ed

Click to expand...

That's what I do as well...
I was referring to Derrin in his thread about the fermenter kit - He disclaimed all responsibility on pressurized use for liability reasons
It's never bothered me (Not that I've used it much yet) - There are a lot of weaker failure points in the system than the sanke itself...

You're right, I think. The curvature of the top would be an issue. You might have to get out the hammer and dolly to get it flat before it would seal well.

SweetSounds said:

That's what I do as well...
I was referring to Derrin in his thread about the fermenter kit - He disclaimed all responsibility on pressurized use for liability reasons
It's never bothered me (Not that I've used it much yet) - There are a lot of weaker failure points in the system than the sanke itself...

You're right, I think. The curvature of the top would be an issue. You might have to get out the hammer and dolly to get it flat before it would seal well.

Click to expand...

I think the problem is bigger than it being flat... a corny has a raised "lip" around the opening that the lid/o-ring fits into. You might be able to get around that but then the "latch" would also have to be re-worked. And when it's all said and done, I'd really like to have a larger opening than a corny anyway.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

I think the problem is bigger than it being flat... a corny has a raised "lip" around the opening that the lid/o-ring fits into. You might be able to get around that but then the "latch" would also have to be re-worked. And when it's all said and done, I'd really like to have a larger opening than a corny anyway.

Ed

Click to expand...

That's a deal breaker

As for the lip, I was just going to shorten the legs on the lock. It would be just exactly like the corny lid on a Blichmann Ferminator.

Put the corney lid on the bottom of the keg and use your set up in the spear opening on the top. Best of both worlds. I would think there would be clearance for the corny lid because there is a bit of a collar around the bottom of the sanke so it could probably sit on a flat surface and not touch the corney lid. Or, you could weld some legs on that bad boy and you could harvest yeast off the bottom by just remove the corney lid (might be a bit messy though) and then the corney lid definately won't touch anything.

Ricand said:

Why not just cut the top off in the shape of a corny lid and use that for cleaning. Here is an example pic https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50l-sanke-fermenter-w-corny-lid-146192/ You can buy the lids here http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3_89&products_id=843 for $8. This is what I'm thinking about doing with one of my Sankes.

Click to expand...

That's a bloody good idea! (ahaha)

At some point I'm pondering taking my sanke fermenter down to the local weld shop, to see what they'll charge to cut a hole for this. Having access to a plasma torch (or even a grinder) it's doable at home, but since this is gonna be for fermenting, I want the hole to be perfect - and not have the razor-like sides most of my cuts do, since I'll be using it to reach in there. Plus, they'll be responsible if it doesn't work!

knightbeer39 said:

Or, you could weld some legs on that bad boy and you could harvest yeast off the bottom by just remove the corney lid (might be a bit messy though) and then the corney lid definately won't touch anything.

Click to expand...

If it were on legs, you could *potentially* remove the relief valve, open the hole up, and weld a coupler on there to add a ball valve.

I can't get my arm inside my cornies. I get stuck about half way up my forearm.


Here is a shot of my kettle. I cut my kettle opening to 11 1/2". The lid is 14" and I made two flat spots (pic #2) so it would go in between the rolled edge.

Clever!
I like it

GreenMonti said:

I can't get my arm inside my cornies. I get stuck about half way up my forearm.


Here is a shot of my kettle. I cut my kettle opening to 11 1/2". The lid is 14" and I made two flat spots (pic #2) so it would go in between the rolled edge.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the pics.

My lid is 13" in diameter, I'm hoping I can get a gasket for about a 10" hole in the sanke.

Since I need access to the sanke "port"... my thoughts are to cut 2 bars, with a radius on each end that will fit beside the "port" and slide under the rolled edge. Then a couple screws through each to push the "lid" down.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

Thanks for the pics.

My lid is 13" in diameter, I'm hoping I can get a gasket for about a 10" hole in the sanke.

Since I need access to the sanke "port"... my thoughts are to cut 2 bars, with a radius on each end that will fit beside the "port" and slide under the rolled edge. Then a couple screws through each to push the "lid" down.

Ed

Click to expand...

Your welcome.

I also forgot to mention that my local hardware store sells the gaskets separate from the pressure caners. So if you decide that they are the gasket for you, you can get them separate.

I like you silicone idea but the sil pats are pretty thin. I know there are silicone gaskets out there you can get, or just purchase a blank sheet of material. IMO it should be able to be squished in this application. I just don't have any ideas at the moment. Silicone hose would be great but......how do you marry the two ends?

GreenMonti said:

Your welcome.

I also forgot to mention that my local hardware store sells the gaskets separate from the pressure caners. So if you decide that they are the gasket for you, you can get them separate.

I like you silicone idea but the sil pats are pretty thin. I know there are silicone gaskets out there you can get, or just purchase a blank sheet of material. IMO it should be able to be squished in this application. I just don't have any ideas at the moment. Silicone hose would be great but......how do you marry the two ends?

Click to expand...

Yea, the ends of a hose might be a problem.

Edit: I would like to continue to steam sanitize the fermenter, so I would like a gasket material that will hold up to that heat.

I would like it to be "squishable" and food contact safe.

After all this talk, I am anxious to cut a hole and try this. But if I cut a hole bigger than a gasket I can find then I have a problem.

I will check out the hardware store.

Thanks,
Ed

Our neighbors on the distilling side of the street use cork as the gasket due to concerns about chemicals being leeched into the "brew". Of course vaporized alcohol is passing by their stuff, but it still might be the answer for you. You can by rolls of the stuff for cheap and cut to your size.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=13514

Here are some photos of me cutting the top out of a keg to try this idea for better access to the inside of a fermenter.

There have been threads re the simplest keg cutting jig... mine is more complicated. It's adjustable horizontally and vertically. It rides on the rim of the keg, so it doesn't drop when the cut is complete.
Had to make some adjustments (2x4 clamped behind the angle grinder) because I wanted to make this hole pretty small (about 9" in diameter). The cuts shown are before any cleanup took place.

The pressure cooker "seal" I found. Then just cut some plywood rings to get even pressure all the way around the "lid". I tested iw c-clamps, but need to find a better way to clamp the top down. Similar to GreenMonti, J-bolts may be the answer.

Did you ever try PBW? Oxi cleans organics, but it won't touch mineral deposits. Beer stone is all mineral deposits.

How well does your system work? does the seal help hold pressure?

Ohio-Ed said:

The pressure cooker "seal" I found. Then just cut some plywood rings to get even pressure all the way around the "lid". I tested iw c-clamps, but need to find a better way to clamp the top down. Similar to GreenMonti, J-bolts may be the answer.

Click to expand...

THIS IS EXACTLY what I need. BRILLIANT!!!! My only problem is I only have one sanke fermenter, mmmmmmmmm.
Thank you SO MUCH.

Where did you find the seal?

thesanch said:

How well does your system work? does the seal help hold pressure?

Click to expand...

Simphoto02 said:

THIS IS EXACTLY what I need. BRILLIANT!!!! My only problem is I only have one sanke fermenter, mmmmmmmmm.
Thank you SO MUCH.

Where did you find the seal?

Click to expand...

I have not had a chance to take new pictures... The seal in the post here didn't work so great. I ended up ordering a very large silicon o-ring from McMaster. Also, the clamps in this pic were replaced by some clamps I had laying around that were intended to hold a camper shell on a pickup truck.

With the updates, it worked great.
I have one brew through it.
I started by cleaning it, then fired it with water to steam sanitize the inside (just like I did before I cut it). When the yeast got busy, the airlock bubbled away (holding preasure). Then when fermentation was complete, I used CO2 to transfer to corny kegs that I used as secondary's.

I will get new pictures and update this thread when I get a bit of time.

Ohio-Ed said:

I have not had a chance to take new pictures... The seal in the post here didn't work so great. I ended up ordering a very large silicon o-ring from McMaster. Also, the clamps in this pic were replaced by some clamps I had laying around that were intended to hold a camper shell on a pickup truck.

With the updates, it worked great.
I have one brew through it.
I started by cleaning it, then fired it with water to steam sanitize the inside (just like I did before I cut it). When the yeast got busy, the airlock bubbled away (holding preasure). Then when fermentation was complete, I used CO2 to transfer to corny kegs that I used as secondary's.

I will get new pictures and update this thread when I get a bit of time.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you found a method that works for you. I would like to see what you came up with.

Can you update this? are you still using this fermenter and if so, is there anything you would change about it? Can you post pictures of your final setup?