Giving away beer, receiving money for ingred.

Hey everyone,
I know there are a lot of threads about selling HB.... both in pub/restaraunt settings and with friends etc.

I'm in NC, my situation is co-workers/ clients etc have expressed interest in my HB for christmas presents etc....

Now I do give away HB without any return fairly often, however some of there are several people asking for several six packs each.

How do I give them beer, and them give me money, LEGALLY?

Verbally say "I'm giving you these beers, and they verbally say they are giving me money towards my next ingredient list".....?

Or?

Do I type a small sheet that explains "You are receiving these homebrews as a gift, and you have chosen to donate said amount towards ingredients for my next beer"???

Whats the thoughts?

Thanks!

Lukeduke02 said:

How do I give them beer, and them give me money, LEGALLY?


Thanks!

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You can't. end of story, no wiggle room, no legal schemes.

And for goodness sakes don't leave a paper trail!!!

There are plenty of other threads talking about people saying the money is for ingredients......

Thats not allowed?

Other threads talk about them buying ingredients and giving it to the brewer....

Is this allowed?

Ask them if they are a cop first and then meet them in a dark alley to make the exchange.

I don't think you have much to worry about unless you are trying to make serious business out of selling your beer.

Lukeduke02 said:

Hey everyone,
I know there are a lot of threads about selling HB.... both in pub/restaraunt settings and with friends etc.

I'm in NC, my situation is co-workers/ clients etc have expressed interest in my HB for christmas presents etc....

Now I do give away HB without any return fairly often, however some of there are several people asking for several six packs each.

How do I give them beer, and them give me money, LEGALLY?

Verbally say "I'm giving you these beers, and they verbally say they are giving me money towards my next ingredient list".....?

Or?

Do I type a small sheet that explains "You are receiving these homebrews as a gift, and you have chosen to donate said amount towards ingredients for my next beer"???

Whats the thoughts?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

why would you even worry about this?

Yea, the general rule is you can't take money for homebrew. I don't see a MORAL problem with someone saying "Hey, your beer is great- can I get some to give to my friends? I'll pick up the bill for the grain if you brew it." I do this all the time and I'm not worried about admitting it.

It's a gray area legally- unenforceable, but technically illegal as you're just changing the order in which you receive money for giving someone beer.

I'd say if someone wanted to buy you some ingredients as a gift, rather than give you cash, it'd be a friendly gesture to give them some of the outcome, because, you know, they're your friend, man. Really, though, it's not something to worry about. Friendly exchanges like this is not what the law is for (like I said, basically unenforceable).

If you wanted to sell your beer in a bar or in a direct manner (you can't have my beer unless you give me $2/bottle) it would be a bigger problem, not to mention one that's more easily to get you noticed.

eastoak said:

why would you even worry about this?

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Because I'm not sleeping on silk sheets and eating my cereal with a golden spoon....

If I have 5 coworkers wanting a case of beer each, that's about $120-$150 in ingredient cost that I'd rather not piss away.... Not to mention if this scenario repeats sometime in the future

I'm not really wanting to buy other peoples christmas presents... I've got my own to buy

amandabab said:

You can't. end of story, no wiggle room, no legal schemes.

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thughes said:

And for goodness sakes don't leave a paper trail!!!

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^^ This.

But if a friend comes over with a big bag of grain for my birthday, I'm probably not gonna chase him up the street if I'm a few bottles light when he leaves.

I would check your local laws. In some states using beer for bartering, i.e. trading it for grains, is just as illegal as selling it outright.

I agree that the receipt thing is a very bad idea.

Don't ask. Don't tell.

a guy I work with asked if I could sell him a batch of brew. I told him "no way in hell. but if you buy the kit & have it sent to work, I'll brew, ferment, and bottle it for free."

Thanks for the input everyone!

Haven't done it but have wondered about selling a glass that the beer goes into. Get a custom printed pint glass and sell them the pint glass for $15 and include some free beer to test the glass with...

Billy-Klubb said:

a guy I work with asked if I could sell him a batch of brew. I told him "no way in hell. but if you buy the kit & have it sent to work, I'll brew, ferment, and bottle it for free."

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That's a good idea!

You could give them a case of homebrew as a Christmas present. They could give you a case of your favorite commercial beer as a Christmas present. Now you don't have to spend money on commercial beer.

amandabab said:

You can't. end of story, no wiggle room, no legal schemes.

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THIS!

Have him buy the ingredients, have him come over and help you brew, AND BOTTLE, and have him leave you a six pack for your time and effort, or a case. Or probably more up and up legally, both of you chip in for ingredients, have him come over and help you brew, have him come back to help you bottle, and then you keep your share and he takes his.

shelly_belly said:

You could give them a case of homebrew as a Christmas present. They could give you a case of your favorite commercial beer as a Christmas present. Now you don't have to spend money on commercial beer.

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Technically that's STILL a medium of exchange. And ALL mediums of exchange involving homebrew is illegal.

Lukeduke02 said:

Because I'm not sleeping on silk sheets and eating my cereal with a golden spoon....

If I have 5 coworkers wanting a case of beer each, that's about $120-$150 in ingredient cost that I'd rather not piss away.... Not to mention if this scenario repeats sometime in the future

I'm not really wanting to buy other peoples christmas presents... I've got my own to buy

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I think what he meant was "just do it". It's beer for money among friends. If you threw a party where you bought all the booze, and asked for money from friends, that's illegal also (I believe).

You made something that your friends are willing to give you money for, do the deal and you're both happy

Lukeduke02 said:

Because I'm not sleeping on silk sheets and eating my cereal with a golden spoon....

If I have 5 coworkers wanting a case of beer each, that's about $120-$150 in ingredient cost that I'd rather not piss away.... Not to mention if this scenario repeats sometime in the future

I'm not really wanting to buy other peoples christmas presents... I've got my own to buy

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But if you accept payment for this, than you are being a contract brewer, and that is illegal without a license. It's THAT simple.

Tell them politely that it is illegal, and something you would rather not get involved with....OR teach them all to brew for themselves.

If you care about legality, check your local laws. I believe it's illegal in Chicago to even give home brew to people who are not guests in your homes.

Revvy said:

teach them all to brew for themselves.

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this is the best option ever.

Am I the only one who sees the irony in these types of threads- folks post looking for ways to loophole around an illegal activity, on the largest hobby alcohol producing website in the world, that may or may not at any given time be monitored by the TTB or Bots, looking for these sorts of dicussions, when in reality had the person NOT advertised his intentions and just gone and done it, no one would have been the wiser?

Revvy said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony in these types of threads- folks post looking for ways to loophole around an illegal activity, on the largest hobby alcohol producing website in the world, that may or may not at any given time be monitored by the TTB or Bots, looking for these sorts of dicussions, when in reality had the person NOT advertised his intentions and just gone and done it, no one would have been the wiser?

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threads like this could teach Alanis Morrisette about "ironic".

"Before I give you this free beer, I bet you $50 I can do 10 pushups"

Oh wait, gambling's illegal.

"Before I give you this free beer, may I interest you in this cookie for $50?"

Crap, I'm not a licensed baker, my kitchen hasn't been inspected by the USDA, and I don't even exist as a business entity

"Before I give you this free beer, may I interest you in this 5 year old iPod for $50?"

Crap, if that contains music, I'm probably infringing on copyrights and the Apple iPod EULA

Revvy said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony in these types of threads- folks post looking for ways to loophole around an illegal activity, on the largest hobby alcohol producing website in the world, that may or may not at any given time be monitored by the TTB or Bots, looking for these sorts of dicussions, when in reality had the person NOT advertised his intentions and just gone and done it, no one would have been the wiser?

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Not really looking for a loophole... especially since it is not for profit...

Sure.. sounds good in theory, but there are people who have committed robbery or murder, never talked about it and still got caught....

The home brewer is not the only variable in the equation... the wrong friend or co-worker says the wrong thing to the right friend or family member and suddenly you are in trouble...

I would not worry about it. That is a stupid law anyhow. Maybee if you were buying a building, and brewing 5 bbl's a day and trying to sell it to the public without the correct paperwork you might get in trouble. But a couple cases. I think you would have to explain to the police what the law was that you were breaking because they probably don't have a clue that it's against the law. And have better things to do anyhow....

Revvy said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony in these types of threads- folks post looking for ways to loophole around an illegal activity, on the largest hobby alcohol producing website in the world, that may or may not at any given time be monitored by the TTB or Bots, looking for these sorts of dicussions, when in reality had the person NOT advertised his intentions and just gone and done it, no one would have been the wiser?

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No, you're not the only one!

Revvy said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony in these types of threads- folks post looking for ways to loophole around an illegal activity, on the largest hobby alcohol producing website in the world, that may or may not at any given time be monitored by the TTB or Bots, looking for these sorts of dicussions, when in reality had the person NOT advertised his intentions and just gone and done it, no one would have been the wiser?

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I believe I pointed this out before. Maybe used a term that insulted the intelligence of the poster. ( he was outright wanting to make moonshine)

The guys who enforce alcohol laws aren't dumb and this is one place I would be looking regularly if my purpose was to catch people breaking alcohol laws.

Breaking the laws that pertain to alcohol is dumb. Posting it makes it worse.
Doing it with no gain?? Are your friends going to pay your legal fees if you get arrested?
If you were to get jail time would they support your family till you were out?
On that discovery channel show about moonshiners they said 5 years for first offense. Doesn't matter how much you are caught with and they aren't going to believe your story about it being a one time thing just to help a buddy. Your buddies aren't going to come to your aid if it means they are exposed to a risk of jail or large fines either.

Brew it, drink it, teach them to make their own if they want to give it out.

+HopSpunge+ said:

I would not worry about it. That is a stupid law anyhow. Maybee if you were buying a building, and brewing 5 bbl's a day and trying to sell it to the public without the correct paperwork you might get in trouble. But a couple cases. I think you would have to explain to the police what the law was that you were breaking because they probably don't have a clue that it's against the law. And have better things to do anyhow....

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Your opinion of the law will not impress the judge.

Just what are you going to brew and have ready for xmas? Unless you have several cases stashed, I don't see how you are going to make it happen this year. You can always sell them wort and a vial of yeast, right?

I personally don't like doing all the work for someone else. It's like keeping their house clean with no expected return, but they pay for the cleaning supplies.

My enjoyment is getting friends into one of the greatest hobbies ever! Watching their eyes when they learn new stuff about beer is the best.

In new york state it is illegal to hang clothes on a clothesline without the proper license. But I don't see this being enforced either.

I tell folks when they ask, Then it would be a job for me and take all the fun out of brewing.

Who cares? Really... I don't.
If your friends want to give you money to cover costs, take it.

The one exception I see here is "brew on premise." In PA it's treated like a hobby store - you go in, buy extract and steeping grains, they coach you the brew, they handle fermentation, and then you come back and bottle.

The key here is that your coworkers buy the ingredients from you, make their beer with you, bottle it, and take it home. If the co-workers were to do the brewing with you (and that's actually something you want to do) then t's feasible. However it won't solve the Christmas issue.

These threads are always sooooo frustrating!! It is illegal!! However I have only heard of one case where someone was actually "caught" and even then nothing of any legal consequence happened. Of course that doesn't make it legal either!! My answer is to do what is morally and ethically right which may or may not line up with the legalities.

A. $150 for 5 cases? Does this beer contain 24c gold flakes?

B. tell then to come over, swing by the homebrew shop, pick up this and this and this, and have a fun day learning to brew. Could you imagine how clean all of your equipment would be if you had 5 coworkers cleaning and helping during the brew day?!

My dad has a hard time taking more than a few bottles from me, because he knows how much money and energy I've put into brewing. So now, when he wants something specific we brew it together. I do 90% of it, and we have a few beers and a good time. We bottle 5 gallons and I keg 5 gallons and put it on tap. He takes the bottles home.

Personally, we're in the planning phase for a nano, but I have no interest in selling my home brew. Selling it is business, brewing at home is relaxing. Keep it that way.

Revvy said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony in these types of threads- folks post looking for ways to loophole around an illegal activity, on the largest hobby alcohol producing website in the world, that may or may not at any given time be monitored by the TTB or Bots, looking for these sorts of dicussions, when in reality had the person NOT advertised his intentions and just gone and done it, no one would have been the wiser?

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Pretty much the same thing when a gun owner complains about not being able to make a straw purchase of a firearm (I believe it is a felony to even attempt), then does it anyway (federal felony for sure), then complains about it on a major gun board: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1399054__sigh__Dick_s_and_straw_purchase_fiasco.html&page=1

I do think it is funny that people think that HBT is monitored by any gov't agency. They have much more important issues to deal with than some guy taking money from friends for some homebrew. Just not worth their time as evidenced by the total lack of fines/citations/arrests in the 30+ years of legal homebrewing. That being said....it is still illegal.

A few things to do and not do when getting reimbursed for ingredients:

1) Don't talk about it online. It's stupid for a couple of reasons. It increases your odds of being caught. Also, who gets advice on moral and legal reasoning from a bunch of strangers on the internet.
2) Only get reimbursed for the cost if the ingredients.
3) Keep receipts so you can show that you were only reimbursed for ingredients.

Or, better yet, just do it for free and have your friend buy you dinner or provide a service with a skill set that you don't possess.