extract brews leading up to mashing

Im fairly new to brewing. i have brewed several kits over the past three months and believe im ready to start selecting my own ingredients for my extract brews at this point. I have outlined all of my brews that i believe will lead me to the point were ill be prepared and ready to mash. Please let me know if there are any concerns or suggestions about this curriculum of sorts..

english style ales
Pale ale(basic techniques)
scoth ale( learn to use brown suger)
Old ale(use molasses)
Barley wine(high alcohol content)

German styles(from here on out we'll use liquid yeast)
Kolsch( light german ale, basic brew techniques, use of liquid yeast)
Trappist ale( use of bottle cultured yeast)
Fruit ale( use of fresh fruit)
All- Malt continental pilsner(First attempt at lagering)
Dunkel Bock(lagering a dark beer)
American pilsner( solidify lagering techniques

While you can brew all of those using extract, I don't think brewing all of those as extract beers will make you ready for starting a mash.

It's like riding a bike. You can do it whenever you start to learn. IMHO, using liquid yeast, molasses, brown sugar, or even making barley wine isn't all that complicated. Some of the finer details come into play when lagering, since you've got a cooler fermentation and the additional cold aging to do, compounded by the extra difficulties of producing a solid beer to begin with (at least in the case of a lighter lager- less room to hide off flavors with hops or alcohol).

I used steeping grains on my first batch, and went to AG by the 4th batch. I got bored. A buddy of mine has been brewing for years and still loves the convenience of extract brewing, with the extras he gets from steeping or doing partial mashes. In my eyes, as long as you're going to steep the grains, mashing it all isn't a huge leap from there.

so you think as soon as i can afford to upgrade my equipment to start mashing i should just jump into it? These were meant to fine tune my skills while i waited. Also i have a quick question, is there any reason why all the beers ive brewed so far have a similiar sort of flavor? is it because im using malt extract?

Could be anything. Any repetitive ingredient (including extract), yeast or technique could result in a similar flavor. But I'd seriously consider if it's your water.

what do you do for water ive just been using poland springs. i use dry yeast also, that might be the cause, ive been looking into starting with liquid yeast.

Using any sort of commercially available drinking or spring water will generally lead to ok results. You might try a different brand and see if the flavor persists. I prefer liquid yeasts with starters to dry yeasts. I would also suggest finding a decent yeast nutrient and adding a tablespoon to your starter - you really can't be too sure about the health and amount of yeast that you are pitching into your beers. It's the single most important factor in getting good results.

yeah sounds good. thanks for the advise.

I'm not a believer in setting a firm schedule as "when it's OK" to go to all grain. If you want to work with grain, and get whatever equipment is necessary to do so, then it's time!

While techniques for producing great extract beers and all grain beers are similar, not all are the same. You might make the best extract beer ever, and if you turn to all grain, then you have water profiles, mash PH, mash temps, mash duration, mash type (decoction, infusion, etc.), and so on. Just more things to experiment with and learn.

Good luck!

All of those except the barleywine and the strong scotch (brown sugar?) are good beginner all grain brews.

Just jump in, it'll be OK. I taught both my brothers to brew, started with AG. They wouldn't even know how to make an extract beer.

haha ok cool. im a very methodical learner, but maybe its time for me to step outside my comfprt zone and just go for it. and as far as brown suger in the scoth ale, it was a recipe from a dave miller book i picked up called brewing the worlds great beers.

Hophead138 said:

haha ok cool. im a very methodical learner, but maybe its time for me to step outside my comfprt zone and just go for it. and as far as brown suger in the scoth ale, it was a recipe from a dave miller book i picked up called brewing the worlds great beers.

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That's the second time you've spelled it like that. We are talking about "scotch" ale, right?

The best scotch ale I ever had was McEwans (not available anymore, at least not here in the states; I think the brewery was bought by a larger one and flushed). There was a strong butterscotch taste to it that I'm sure came from melanoidens produced from removing some of the wort and boiling to a syrup, then returning. I did that once and it was good. No brown sugar.

yeah. were talking about scotch. so youve never added brown suger to the wort ?

ive read its similiar to adding molasses and that it can impart a mildly rum like flavor.

Hophead138 said:

yeah. were talking about scotch. so youve never added brown suger to the wort ?

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Nope. I've got no prejudice against it, just never used it (I had to search my brewing history though, I've made so many beers I honestly couldn't remember!)

passedpawn said:

That's the second time you've spelled it like that. We are talking about "scotch" ale, right?

The best scotch ale I ever had was McEwans (not available anymore, at least not here in the states; I think the brewery was bought by a larger one and flushed). There was a strong butterscotch taste to it that I'm sure came from melanoidens produced from removing some of the wort and boiling to a syrup, then returning. I did that once and it was good. No brown sugar.

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Sorry to hijack but...

The death of McEwans is the reason I got into home-brewing. That was my favorite beer for years.

I've yet to see a definitive recipe for it yet. You wouldn't happen to have one would you?

passedpawn said:

Nope. I've got no prejudice against it, just never used it (I had to search my brewing history though, I've made so many beers I honestly couldn't remember!)

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Me neither- I've never used brown sugar in a beer. I don't like the taste of fermented brown sugar, though, in ciders and I know I wouldn't want it in a beer!

yeah theres alot of ingredients ive yet to use, im still in the learning process.

Ravenshead said:

Sorry to hijack but...

The death of McEwans is the reason I got into home-brewing. That was my favorite beer for years.

I've yet to see a definitive recipe for it yet. You wouldn't happen to have one would you?

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No. I still have the stuff i made in the back of a closet. It was an attempt. Good, but no clone.

this is the recipe for the scotch ale which ill be attempting next....
grains: 1lb 40degree L crystal malts, 4oz. chocolate malt
malt extract: 6.6 lbs british pale syrup;unhopped
suger: 1lb dark brown suger
bittering hops: 8 AAU fuggles
yeast:14 grams munton and fison dry yeast

Thats from a book thats supposed to teach me to homebrew. does anyone have any suggestions to make this batch my best yet? So far none of my brews have been exceptional.

Scottish ales vary in strength from a 60/- all the way to a strong Scotch ale (also called a Wee Heavy).

So it really depends on what you have in mind. But there is not one recipe that I would consider that would use sugar, brown or white. Scottish ales are malty, slightly sweet, with a rich aroma and malt flavor with little or no hops aroma.

I would ditch the Munton's yeast for sure, and go with a quality yeast. If you want a good dry yeast, you could try Safale S04, but I'd be much more inclined to go with a good liquid like White labs WLP-028 Edinburgh Ale yeast, or Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale yeast.

+1 on the Munton's ditch.

yeah i think its time to ditch the dry yeast. thatll be my first experience with liqiud yeast. what should i expect? also is there a particular company that sells a high quality LME that will make a bigger diffrence in the taste. And im sorry to say i dont really know what you mean by 60/-

Sorry... Didn't mean to suggest drop the dry yeast completely. Just the Munton's. As Yoop suggested a fermentis strain would probably be better. I've used both US-04 and 05 and have had great results.

Hophead138 said:

yeah i think its time to ditch the dry yeast. thatll be my first experience with liqiud yeast. what should i expect? also is there a particular company that sells a high quality LME that will make a bigger diffrence in the taste. And im sorry to say i dont really know what you mean by 60/-

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Scottish ales are "rated" by how much they used to cost! A 60/- is a "Sixty Schilling" beer, and it's very low ABV and a "session" beer. Then there is a 70 schilling- a little more alcohol and a little bit richer and sometimes even made by carmelizing the wort. An 80 schilling (80 /-) is more of the same- very similar beer, but higher ABV and maltier and "bigger" but still very drinkable.

You know I was just thinking- the BEST book I can think of that explains all of this- techniques, beer styles along with a recipe for each style, as well as yeast pitching rates and ingredients is "Brewing Classic Styles". It's by Jamil Zainasheff, and I refer to it often when thinking about what to brew. He has recipes for Scottish ales in there, along with the rationale on what ingredients go in it and why. I bet you'd get a lot of out a book like that!

Liquid yeast are great to use, as there is a HUGE variety of them. But you really need to watch the pitching rate- by using more than one package or making a starter, for any beer over about 1.040.

Another thing important to note, whether using liquid or dry yeast, is to ensure the fermentation temperature is controlled. If you're making an ale that is best fermented at 62-68 degrees, it's really important to keep the fermentation temperature under 68 degrees and even better to keep it at 62 degrees. That will go a long way to making better beer that doesn't taste the same no matter what kind you make.

Awesome, really thanks a bunch. This is very helpful im really excited about making great beer. I have a book similar to what you suggested but from what your saying its not as reliable. Its called Brewing the worlds great beers, by dave miller. thats were i got the recipe with brown suger. Ill definitly check out your book though. Could you give me any advise on pitching wet yeast? So far with the dry yeast all ive done really is rehydrate it in about a cup of warm water and pour it into the wort?

Hophead138 said:

Awesome, really thanks a bunch. This is very helpful im really excited about making great beer. I have a book similar to what you suggested but from what your saying its not as reliable. Its called Brewing the worlds great beers, by dave miller. thats were i got the recipe with brown suger. Ill definitly check out your book though. Could you give me any advise on pitching wet yeast? So far with the dry yeast all ive done really is rehydrate it in about a cup of warm water and pour it into the wort?

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Liquid yeast usually has enough in it for up to a 5 gallon batch of an OG of 1.040 or so. It's always recommended to make a starter (look at our threads on yeast starters for insight) with liquid yeast to check and ensure viability as well as a decent cell count. There are yeast pitching calculators (like the one at mrmalty.com) to help you know how much yeast you need for a given batch.

I've never heard of Brewing the World's Great Beers, but that recipe is suspect, at least to me. I have about 7-8 books, but I use How To Brew by John Palmer and Brewing Classic Styles by Jamil Zainasheff (along with John Palmer) the most.

Here's mine. I liked it a lot (from my notes, been a while since I busted one open). Maybe you can glean something from this. Good luck. It's a "kitchen sink" beer - lots of stuff thrown in there.

i dont know much about liquid yeast, do they all come in "smack pack" form, whats a smack pack? and if i have a smack pack do i still need to make a starter?

+1 on brewing classic styles. as yooper mentioned, it's got great breakdown of not just what's in the beer, but why it's there and some suggestions for things you can do a little differently depending on what you want.