For an OG of 1.084 do I need a starter?

I usually do a starter, but today is pretty much the only day I have free to brew for the next few weeks.. and I haven't bought the ingredients yet.

Im thinking of using Wyeast 1388. This is a pretty strong yeast, so could I just use the smack pack and I'll be good?


6.00 lb Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 52.75 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 17.58 %
1.00 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 8.79 %
0.75 lb Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 6.59 %
0.13 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.10 %
1.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 20.1 IBU
1.50 lb Candi Sugar, Amber (75.0 SRM) Sugar 13.19 %
1 Pkgs SafBrew Specialty Ale (DCL Yeast #T-58) Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.084 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.021 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.19 %

You need a starter or 2 smack packs.

That's a pretty big beer. I would for sure recommend using a starter or like Kaya stated, at least get another SmackPack. Throwing just one starter in there will no doubt stress the yeast as they try to replicate to a good stable size. This may impart off flavors if the correct amount of yeast is not being used.

Try this: Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator

Like stated above, starter or 2-3 packs... or you will be WAY underpitching.

alright.. so I guess I better be patient. I'll buy the yeast do a starter and maybe brew next week.

Can I keep a starter for a week before I pitch.

syd138 said:

alright.. so I guess I better be patient. I'll buy the yeast do a starter and maybe brew next week.

Can I keep a starter for a week before I pitch.

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Sure, you can even step it up in that time... if you like.

For sure... After it's been built up (36-48 hours) you can simply throw the starter in the fridge. Come brewday, just pull it out of the fridge, decant off some of the liquid at the top, and let it slowly come back up to room temp. You can pitch anytime after it has come back up in temperature.

In the past when I've done a starter, I'll put tin foil on it.. but thats only for a day.

If Im doing a week, am I still good to use tin foil?

I like the idea of doing a big starter known as a 2 1/2 gallon batch.... I mean, why do a 1 gallon starter & decant all that beer when you could be drinking it? Just make a nice low gravity pale ale for your starter.

Yes, you can save the yeast like they said, but again, you want to use Mr. Malty's pitching rate calc to see how big a starter you need. Assuming 75% viability, and an OG of 1.084 (5 gallon batch), if you don't make a starter, you need 5 packs of yeast. That's stupid expensive, obviously, so you wanna do a starter. So, assuming only one pack of yeast, your starter would need to be over 7 liters. Even my bigass flask is only 5L. So, now that you have some time to plan for a brew next week, I'd say you should make as big a starter as you can, let it ferment out, then chill it, decant off the spent wort, and add more starter wort. This should get you to a pretty okay place.

If Im doing a week, am I still good to use tin foil?

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yes. just don't mess with it. You won't get bacteria in there unless you remove the foil and blow.

syd138 said:

In the past when I've done a starter, I'll put tin foil on it.. but thats only for a day.

If Im doing a week, am I still good to use tin foil?

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I say yes. Nasties wont generally crawl up in there, they drop, with dust and suck from the sky. So, as long as it is covered tightly with foil, you should be good to go.

I do agree with everyone, a starter would be ideal. However, as a little bit of a devils advocate I have to play the other side also. Pitching rate is based on your initial amount of sugars, of course. When you pitch your yeast it would be ideal to throw in a little yeast nutrient to get things a cruzing!

I have pitched a single vial of white labs into wort that was 1.083 and had no problems. I have also pitched a single packet of dry yeast into 1.085 beer and it took off, my blow off almost came off my carboy. When I did this I just didnt have time to make a starter or was being lazy. The beers still fermented down to the appropriate range and all seemed to be just fine. This of course is not ideal as a single does not have the recommend pitching rate of 10 million cells/ml. Of course HG beers will need more and so on.

White Labs actually does a good job at getting a decent yeast count (70-140 billion cells/ vial) which translates to around 4-7 million cells/ml (for 5 gal) under pitiching but close to the desired mark. I think it just comes down to time and space, if you have the time and space go ahead and make a starter you will definitely be better off. If you plan it right you can dump your starter in without cooling it, that really makes fermentation take off. Otherwise if you just dont have the time or the space spending a little extra for another vial would probably be worth it to make sure you reach your desired OG. As for 3-4-5 vials, I think that would be a little rediculous but I dont know the count of the other yeast packets I pretty much only use white labs.

Wyeast make a "Pitchable smack pack" for about a dollar fifty more. This was no good for me when I made 11 gallon batches, I had to make a starter no matter what. Now I ferment 5.5 gallons and use the bigger smack pack. It claims 100 million ? Billion ? Cells and can be pitched directly into 5 gals of beer. It works for me.

I still make starters because sometimes I buy the smaller smack pack and I just began
Ranchin yeast.

A beer that big deserves a big starter.

David

Droot said:

Wyeast make a "Pitchable smack pack"...

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You still need to calculate pitching rates. Anything over an OG of around 1.06 and you're going to need at least two Wyeast Activator smack-packs...or just save some money and make a starter.

Wyeast themselves describe this: Wyeast Laboratories : Home Enthusiasts : Brewers : Technical Information : Making A Starter

The Wyeast Activator (125 ml) smack-pack is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard ale wort (O.G. < 1.060, 65-72°F). When brewing high gravity beer (O.G. >1.060) or cold fermented lagers or ales (<65°F)) additional yeast will be required. An Activator contains approximately 100 billion cells which will deliver slightly less than 6 million cells per milliliter in a 5 gallon batch of beer.

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XXguy said:

I like the idea of doing a big starter known as a 2 1/2 gallon batch.... I mean, why do a 1 gallon starter & decant all that beer when you could be drinking it? Just make a nice low gravity pale ale for your starter.

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That sounds like a great idea, I just don't like spending 4-5 hours brewing a starter.

humann_brewing said:

That sounds like a great idea, I just don't like spending 4-5 hours brewing a starter.

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Light DME (Dry Malt Extract)... lots quicker.

I just opened a Wyeast Propagator. It has 25 billion yeast cells. For a dollar fifty, you get four times as much yeast in the activator. (100 Billion)

David

humann_brewing said:

That sounds like a great idea, I just don't like spending 4-5 hours brewing a starter.

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Get the water up to 170, dissolve pale DME in it, cool, and pitch the yeast. It should be under an hour easily, probably under a half hour.

SumnerH said:

Get the water up to 170, dissolve pale DME in it, cool, and pitch the yeast. It should be under an hour easily, probably under a half hour.

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I do agree, I just get the light DME up to a boil real quick crash cool it and pitch my yeast. Throw it on my stir plate and call it good for about 36-48 hours. Let it settle, pour off a bit of the liquid, mix her back up then pour away. Just takes a little planning.

Im just not getting a yeast bank going, we will see how much effort i actually get into this

So heres another question. If the OG on my beer is 1.080, should that be the OG on my starter?

I've heard some people say that your starters OG should be the same as the OG in you beer so the yeast doesn't get shocked. I've heard other people say that you should have your starter around 1.040 so the yeast get hungry.

Thoughts?

syd138 said:

So heres another question. If the OG on my beer is 1.080, should that be the OG on my starter?

I've heard some people say that your starters OG should be the same as the OG in you beer so the yeast doesn't get shocked. I've heard other people say that you should have your starter around 1.040 so the yeast get hungry.

Thoughts?

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Those people would be wrong.

The purpose of a starter is to grow yeast cells. They grow best in an environment around 1.040 OG. Your yeast will not "get shocked" any less if they are in a 1.080 starter---they will simply be stressed more, and grow less, and be less viable when you pitch. So stick with the "100g DME per 1000mL water" rule.

Evan! said:

Those people would be wrong.

The purpose of a starter is to grow yeast cells. They grow best in an environment around 1.040 OG. Your yeast will not "get shocked" any less if they are in a 1.080 starter---they will simply be stressed more, and grow less, and be less viable when you pitch. So stick with the "100g DME per 1000mL water" rule.

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This is absolutely right. 1.040ish is good, you never want a starter to be high gravity.

syd138 said:

So heres another question. If the OG on my beer is 1.080, should that be the OG on my starter?

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Like Evan said, 1.040 is the right answer. Why? This will keep the starter (which is just a batch of beer) under 5% ABV, at which point the yeast's cell walls start to get affected negatively. At least this is what I read.

passedpawn said:

Like Evan said, 1.040 is the right answer. Why? This will keep the starter (which is just a batch of beer) under 5% ABV, at which point the yeast's cell walls start to get affected negatively. At least this is what I read.

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It's not just about alcohol content, it's about the fact that higher starting gravity means more osmotic pressure on the cells, which hurts their viability. That's the reason why, when trying to reach higher ABV's, like 15%+, people will often start with a relatively low OG, wait for that to ferment down, then "dose" with more sugars. You get the same alcohol production while keeping your maximum starting gravity lower.