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MKEbrew

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So, i have a keg in the fridge carbonating at 12psi. I don't shake it or anything, but plan to let it do this for around 3 weeks.

When I decide to tap it, do I leave it at 12psi? I have the co2 tank in the fridge with it & the psi has been stable at 12 for about 2 weeks. The tubing isn't very long - I did read some threads about using 10' tubing, but I just have the shorter one from NB.
 
Thanks, Bobby. It did seem to come out fast when I tested it, but I haven't tapped a whole glass yet.

Does 3 weeks sound about right for carbonating like this? I don't need to shake it, right? Do I need to be letting air out or anything else -- or is it just set it and forget it?
 
Shaking it at 12 PSI will decrease the amount of time needed to carb, and will NOT run the risk of overcarbing. Shaking it at a higher PSI, (which is what many people do), DOES run the risk of overcarbing. Shaking it at 12 PSI is not required though, it'll work just fine if you just "set and forget".

You should have purged the keg when you initially hooked it up to the CO2, (hook it up, pull the relief valve a couple times), to blast out any O2 still in the headspace from when you filled it. If you didn't do this, no worries, just do it in the future, (or hell, do it now if you want). After that initial purge though, no purging is necessary.
 
You should have purged the keg when you initially hooked it up to the CO2, (hook it up, pull the relief valve a couple times), to blast out any O2 still in the headspace from when you filled it. If you didn't do this, no worries, just do it in the future, (or hell, do it now if you want). After that initial purge though, no purging is necessary.

I actually only thought of purging the keg AS I was typing my original post, lol. I did pull the relief valve briefly a few times, for good measure and just to make sure the gas was flowing, etc. Don't know if this actually purged the headspace though -- how long would you hold open the relief valve for 5 gallons in a corny keg?

I have less than 5 gallons in there right now because, first time kegging, I found that my keg leaked from the bottom (just above the boot)!! So, I lost about 3/4 of a gallon in the ordeal. :(
 
Ouch on the leaky keg.

I pull mine for about 1-2 seconds, wait for the keg to refill with CO2 (for it to stop flowing), again for 1-2 seconds, etc, for a total of about 3 pulls. No real science in it, you're just trying to flush out air. Others just open the relief valve for a few seconds and call it a day.


Like I said, not a huge deal if you didn't do it. Bottlers don't purge their headspaces before capping, do they?
 
I like to switch the gas and liquid posts, then carbonate through the dip tube. I like the sound of the bubbles and it makes me think its carbonating faster.

I have tried the shaking method, never really worked out all that well for me. no over carbonation but I always had what tasted like green beer( even when carbing 8 month old beer) for at least 4 days. I find with my system set at 13 psi or so that I get the sweet spot in around a week if I carbonate in the fridge, longer if i do it outside where its warm.
 
I like to switch the gas and liquid posts, then carbonate through the dip tube. I like the sound of the bubbles and it makes me think its carbonating faster.

I have tried the shaking method, never really worked out all that well for me. no over carbonation but I always had what tasted like green beer( even when carbing 8 month old beer) for at least 4 days. I find with my system set at 13 psi or so that I get the sweet spot in around a week if I carbonate in the fridge, longer if i do it outside where its warm.

Carbonic acid formation is part of the reason for this. As the CO2 goes into solution, the carbonic acid level, (CO2 + Water = H2C03) spikes, then settles back down. The "bite" you get with rapidly carbonated beer, (either shaken, or burst carbed, or any of the other "carb in 48 hrs or less" methods), comes from this. Waiting two weeks allows everything to equilibrate again, and no bite.
 
I did use a chart to roughly determine where I wanted the levels to be. I'm not controlling the temp on the fridge, so I figured in a range. I don't know how to translate the carb volumes to my liking though, so maybe I'll just go through some trial and error to get it right. I like my beer to be well carbonated.

I never thought of switching the posts though. That sounds like it might be beneficial. Also, it sounds like my beer might already be carbonated! lol
 
It won't really carb noticeably faster bubbling through the dip tube unless you put a diffusing stone on the end of it to create smaller bubbles. The increase in surface area is very very small without it and it might carb all the way in 19 days instead of 21. In other words, it's not worth messing around with the disconnects. I suppose if you use all flare connections, it's not that big of a deal.
 
I enjoy the bubbling noises. I don't need your anti dip tube carbonation snobbery.:mug:

on that note though, I don't use a diffusion stone, and just end up switching my gas and liquid disconnects around on the MFLs I have on my distributor lines and on my beer lines once I am done carbonating it.
 
Make sure you have a check valve in-line, if your going to carb thru the dip-tube. You can back beer up the line and damage your regulators!!
 
Make sure you have a check valve in-line, if your going to carb thru the dip-tube. You can back beer up the line and damage your regulators!!

Heh, if you suck at filling kegs as much as I do, most of the time you can back beer up through the gas line too...(I really need a better method then, "uh, I think it's full enough", or "it's overflowing now, definitely full enough").
 
Heh, if you suck at filling kegs as much as I do, most of the time you can back beer up through the gas line too...(I really need a better method then, "uh, I think it's full enough", or "it's overflowing now, definitely full enough").

Are you doing something other than racking from carboy to the keg?
 
Are you doing something other than racking from carboy to the keg?

Nope.

With the starsan foam, it's tricky to see how full the keg is. I typically have at least 5.5 gal in my carboy, so I can make sure I get a "full" keg. As a result, I often, (usually?) fill past the gas dip tube.
 
Nope.

With the starsan foam, it's tricky to see how full the keg is. I typically have at least 5.5 gal in my carboy, so I can make sure I get a "full" keg. As a result, I often, (usually?) fill past the gas dip tube.



OH!! ROFL, I get it. :)
 
All foam & flat still, but I now realize that its only been 9 days since I replaced the leaky keg.
 
All foam & flat still, but I now realize that its only been 9 days since I replaced the leaky keg.

If you're getting foam, it makes me think about the lines. If you're getting foamy but flat pours, it makes me think that the lines are under 6' long, perhaps way under 6'?

What kind of faucets are you using? Whatever kind they are, make sure you open the tap fully and not "pinched" to slow it down. I know if it comes blasting out, people intuitively want to slow the pour so they pinch off the faucet. But that has a garden hose effect (picture pinching the end of a garden hose and what happens to the flow!).
 
This is what I'm using.

ForumRunner_20111024_184654.jpg
 
This is what I'm using.

View attachment 36690

Ok, a picnic (cobra) faucet. Do you open it fully when you dispense? What is the approximate keg temperature?

How long are those lines? They look short, because mine go around the keg about four times before looking that short but it's hard to tell in a photo.
 
I think you need to add a little length to that line. You will need about 8-10 ft. of 3/16th vinyl. I would start with 10 ft. and work down from there, at 41F you should be all right between 10-15psi to get the right volumes of CO2 desired. Hope that help's!! CHeers!!!
 
Hmm, so lengthening the line is the only solution? I don't really want it longer or need it longer for any other reason... why does short tubing cause foam?
 
Not enough resistance, in my opinion. Most books and other sources will say 3/16" vinyl will have between 2.2 to 3 psi/ foot of resistance, but in my experiences I have there to be less. Most people I know all use 8-10 ft at 40F and get a good pour. If you keep the 5 ft. that you have, you can simply hold & serve at a lower pressure, like 5-7 psi. But your beer will have low CO2 volumes and be under-carbonated. Even a beer that was properly carbonated to begin with, will eventually come to equillibrium with the lower head pressure and become under-carbed, and will also cause foaming issues as the excess CO2 is coming out of solution to equalize with lower head-pressure. If you ever look at your lines as they come out the keg, and you see bubbles coming up your line, thats the CO2 coming out of the beer!!! Hope that rambling helped some!! Cheers!! Chumly!!!
 
Hmm, so lengthening the line is the only solution? I don't really want it longer or need it longer for any other reason... why does short tubing cause foam?

OK, science lesson:

Short tubing causes foam because the beer sees too big of a pressure drop at the end of the line.

Your keg is at, say, 12 PSI. The outlet of the faucet, by definition, is at 0 PSI, (really, these are called "PSIG" ,or PSIGauge. Gauge means, "set relative to atmospheric pressure". In fact, although your gauge reads 12 PSI, your keg is really at about 26.7 PSIA (PSIActual), and the outlet of the faucet is at 14.7 PSIA, or 1 atmosphere of pressure...but whatever).

If you all of a sudden jump from 12 PSI to 0 PSI, a bunch of foam will form, because the CO2 basically gets "shocked' out of solution.

Now, travelling through a tube "uses up" pressure. There is resistance to the flow of the liquid, friction with the tube walls, etc. The energy to overcome that resistance has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the pressure. The pressure of the liquid drops as it travels through the tube!

You want to "balance" the pressure drop with the pressure in the keg. Basically, you want enough tubing to "use up" that extra 12 PSI of pressure in the keg, so the beer exits the faucet at near 0 PSI. Because this drop from 12 to 0 PSI happens slowly, as the beer is travelling, the beer doesn't foam.

With only 5 feet of tube, you are probably only dropping the pressure down to 5 or 6 PSI. You need MORE tube to drop the pressure down more before it exits the faucet. Note that, because pressure is dropping, flow rate drops, so longer line makes your beer flow slower.

There are two answers to the problem: longer lines, or something else to drop the pressure. Some people use epoxy mixer sticks in the diptube of the keg, (search "cure short hose" on HBT to find the thread). The mixer sticks cause a lot of flow restriction, which "uses up" more pressure, and allows you to use shorter hoses. I personally prefer longer hoses, because the mixer sticks are finicky, and you have to make sure they are clean and sanitized each time you rack to a keg, which adds more vectors for infection. Both solutions, however are valid.

If you go with longer hoses, do NOT splice in more line. You need to ditch the 5 foot line altogether, and buy a 10 foot line. If you splice 5 more feet onto the 5 feet you have, the restriction caused by the barbed coupler you'll use will cause a drastic pressure drop, (called a venturi effect), and will create foam in the line, so you'll be no closer to the perfect pour then you were before.
 
Thanks for the thorough answers. Wish I would have just started with longer tubing because now I feel like I wasted money. Off to NB I guess.
 
Another thing to try is to just grab your picnic faucet and hold it up over your head and try pouring from there. The added height adds resistance. It would be enough to see if longer lines would do the trick. Seriously though, 10 feet of line shouldn't be more than 3 bucks.
 
I get that line is cheap, just annoyed that I have to drive out there and then make the switch when I could have just gotten the right thing the first time.

That said, I'm pretty sure this is what I have: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/foam-free-tubing-kit-bl-ball-lock-version.html, and since it says it has a flow resistance of 10 psi -- should I be using 10 psi? I just tried it, and it didn't seem to make a difference.
 
I get that line is cheap, just annoyed that I have to drive out there and then make the switch when I could have just gotten the right thing the first time.

That said, I'm pretty sure this is what I have: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/foam-free-tubing-kit-bl-ball-lock-version.html, and since it says it has a flow resistance of 10 psi -- should I be using 10 psi? I just tried it, and it didn't seem to make a difference.

Like Bobby said, maybe if you held it over your head or something crazy it would work.

I know that all of the homebrew stores (and the kegging places) always say that a short line will work. In theory, they are right. In practice, it is rare than a line under 8' will work for most of us. When I was at Northern Brewer in Milwaukee last spring, I bought 30' of line for my three taps. Best thing I ever did, for about $12. But I lived with 6' lines first!
 
I am planning to brew something this weekend, so ill just grab some while I'm there probably on Friday.

Want to brew something that will be good by Christmas.
 
Not to make this thread even longer, but...

So I head to NB on Saturday and the guy talks me out of buying more tubing and convinces me to lower my PSI. We went back and forth for a while and I figured wth, I'll take some more advice.

For the record, the beer in my keg isn't that great. I neglected it and am happy that it turned out as decent as it did. I don't mind using this one to learn my keg.

I think I'm going to get a new gauge. The one I'm using was from a kegerator setup I had gotten for my 21st birthday -- I'm thinking it may not even be accurate. I have it set and beer still just rushes out. I just tried setting it to 1 (I think) and let out some pressure, so we'll see later if I still get foam.

Maybe it's over carbed?
 
I too am new to kegging. I just tapped my beer the other day with a 6 ft. line and it worked just fine.

Based on advice from my local shop and from endlessly perusing these forums, I hit the keg after racking with 30 psi for 2 days, then dropped to 12 psi for 2 days, then served it at 8 psi. It was perfect, not overcarbed and a little less carbonated than normal, but that's okay since it's an IPA. I much prefer an IPA to be less carbonated. This was all at 40 F. I'd prefer a little warmer for an IPA but I'm still tinkering with my keg fridge.

Anyway, serving at 8 psi was not a problem with 6 ft. of hose. I will put it up to 12 psi as an experiment to see how that goes.
 
I know that all of the homebrew stores (and the kegging places) always say that a short line will work. In theory, they are right. In practice, it is rare than a line under 8' will work for most of us.

This.

I've balanced high end kegerators for people who were just serving 1/2 bbl kegs of bud light. Expensive, commercial grade ones. Not a lot, but 4 or 5. In order to keep the beer properly carbed and still get a foam free pour the shortest I ever got away with was 7.5 feet, and the longest I used was 11 feet. Since the kegerators all looked roughly the same, I'm guessing the difference was in the faucets.

When I was just recently shopping for my own kegging setup, I noticed that 5 feet seems to be the standard length of beer line that gets included. From my limited, non-professional, experience, I'd call that about half of what it really should be.
 
I like to switch the gas and liquid posts, then carbonate through the dip tube. I like the sound of the bubbles and it makes me think its carbonating faster.

Not that it really matters much, but this is actually counterproductive, and if anything slows down the carbonation process slightly. Without a diffusion stone, the bubbles coming up through the beer will be so large that they will cause a lot of agitation. This agitation knocks much of the existing CO2 out of solution. Pushing CO2 in the liquid out diptube and letting it bubble up through the beer with the pressure relief valve open is actually a really slick method of degassing an overcarbonated keg very quickly, and without risking oxidation.
 
This isn't directed at anyone in particular but dropping the pressure so you are able to serve without foam is a moronic solution.

If you carb at 12psi and you get too much foam the solution is to get longer lines, or increase resistance with different lines, or artificially create resistance. It's been said. If you carb at 12 psi and then drop your serving pressure to 8 psi, eventually your beer will be undercarbed at 8 psi. You could readjust every night back to 12psi to keep it carbed but who wants to do that?

If you did not over carb your beer and you get too much foam, buy more line. I don't know why some people are so against it. Especially a place that sells line.
 
Not that it really matters much, but this is actually counterproductive, and if anything slows down the carbonation process slightly. Without a diffusion stone, the bubbles coming up through the beer will be so large that they will cause a lot of agitation. This agitation knocks much of the existing CO2 out of solution.

It won't knock CO2 out of solution because you have a pressurized head space. How would the shake method work if you were just knocking CO2 out of solution?
 
It won't knock CO2 out of solution because you have a pressurized head space. How would the shake method work if you were just knocking CO2 out of solution?

It won't knock CO2 out of solution IF you pressurize the headspace by connecting the gas correctly to start with, and then purge/presurize the keg, and then disconnect the gas, and then reconnect the gas to the liquid out. If you start by connecting the gas to the liquid out (which I've seen many suggestions to do), it most certainly will knock CO2 out of solution until the headspace pressurizes. In fact, part of what will pressurize the headspace will be the CO2 that came out of solution. Like I said, it doesn't really matter much either way, but in any case (whether you pressurize the headspace first or not) pushing gas through the liquid out does not help carbonate the beer any faster.
 
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