Razz Buried Recipe

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Torchiest

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I'm planning on doing a raspberry beer next. I thought I could do something similar to Lindeman's Framboise, but I'm getting the impression that Lambics are in a class of their own, and aren't really cloneable by standard methods, so I'm just going to try for a semi-wheat fruit ale something or other. I'm shooting for a pretty light bodied ale. This is the recipe I've put together so far:

4.00 lb Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 36.4 %
4.00 lb Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 36.4 %
1.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.1 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.1 %
1.00 lb Brown Sugar, Light (8.0 SRM) Sugar 9.1 %

1.00 oz Saaz [4.00%] (20 min) Hops 6.1 IBU
1.00 oz Crystal [3.50%] (10 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -

1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) Yeast-Ale

5.00 lb Raspberries, Fresh/Frozen (Secondary 2.0 weeks) Misc

Does this seem pretty reasonable? This will be the most adventurous brew I've attempted so far, and I'm a little concerned about getting it right.
 
That looks like a lot of raspberries. I used two pounds in a 2.5 gallon recipe, and it was pretty overpowering. Depends on what you're looking for.

You'll also lose a lot of beer to the berry trub, keep in mind.
 
Well, I'm aiming for something pretty sweet, I think. I don't mind an overpowering raspberry taste at all. I'm really interested in experimenting with flavors anyway, so that's fine. But how much volume would I lose to the secondary trub? You said you made a 2.5gal batch; how much did you end up with? Less than a case?
 
Yeah. I can't remember specifically, and honestly, I don't miss what I lost (the beer was a failure on many levels). Even more so that usual, you can't rack every last bit, because the raspberry gunk (at least some of it) will float and get into the bottling bucket, so you have to leave more behind on top of the trub than you usually would. I would certainly plan for at least a 5.5 gallon batch and probably expect to net a little less than two cases.
 
I wonder if I could stretch a sanitized piece of cheese cloth or muslin across my bottling bucket to catch debris when I racked from the secondary. Would that filter out yeast as well as seeds and such? What other problems did you have with yours? If it's too much hassle and misery, I might hold off on it for now and do it another time.
 
You would be better to tie the muslin/cheese cloth around the end of the racking cane to keep out the seeds etc. to begin with. Running it over the bottling bucket will cause too much oxygenation which leads to stale/oxidized beer.
 
You'd risk aerating the beer, I would think.

I'm not telling you not to do this, just be prepared to lose some beer in the process. You just have to be really careful in racking and not get too greedy. If I do another fruit beer (I *may* do a raspberry wheat in the spring), I'll probably experiment with extract instead of real fruit.
 
Yeah, I figuring stretching it over the top would be bad, but then I thought it could clog it if I tied it too tightly to the cane. It is doable, though. As for extract, I'd considered that, but I wanted a more "authentic" taste. I bet it would be quite a bit easier to work with, however.
 
If you want a real, distinct raspberry taste, I would probably stick to the berries, trouble and all. Freeze them, then heat them in a little water at 160 degrees for ten minutes, cool them, add them to the secondary and rack on top of them.

If you want more a hint of raspberry flavor (which will be the direction I go, if I go there), extract's got to be a LOT easier to work with.
 
Yeah, I think I'll just start with 5.5 gallons in my primary, and then lose some in each racking, hopefully ending up with about two cases without being greedy towards the bottom. :D
 
All that malt is not in the light bodied range.

IMO, I'd reduce the Pale LME by 2 lbs, boil in the Saaz for 60 mins along with 1/2 of the Crystal hops (no aroma hops - the berries will overpower them) and halve the berries. The AA% of the hops are low enough to allow you to have a sweet brew even without the berries.

Berries should steep for 20-30 mins after you turn off the heat so they can pasteurize.

Whatever you do...make sure your brew is done fermenting prior to bottling.:D
 
Personally, I wouldn't put the berries in the primary, I'd wait to add them to the secondary. I'd be afraid the active fermentation would strip a lot of the flavor (and especially the aroma) from them.

Oh, and you also might consider a short (day or two) tertiary fermentation to further clear the beer before bottling (wish I did). Little pieces of berry in your brew have the exact consistency of phlegm (sp?). Not good drinks.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
All that malt is not in the light bodied range.

IMO, I'd reduce the Pale LME by 2 lbs, boil in the Saaz for 60 mins along with 1/2 of the Crystal hops (no aroma hops - the berries will overpower them) and halve the berries. The AA% of the hops are low enough to allow you to have a sweet brew even without the berries.

Yeah, I think I'll reduce both extracts by a pound each. And that's a pretty good idea about scratching aroma hops. I dunno if I want to go a full hour though, although they are both pretty low alpha.

homebrewer_99 said:
Berries should steep for 20-30 mins after you turn off the heat so they can pasteurize.

Whatever you do...make sure your brew is done fermenting prior to bottling.:D

I plan on putting them into the secondary fermenter, although some of the recipes I've seen call for putting half in the boil and half in the secondary. And I am super paranoid about bottle bombs. If I ever had one, SWMBO would kill me. :drunk:
 
the_bird said:
Personally, I wouldn't put the berries in the primary, I'd wait to add them to the secondary. I'd be afraid the active fermentation would strip a lot of the flavor (and especially the aroma) from them.

Oh, and you also might consider a short (day or two) tertiary fermentation to further clear the beer before bottling (wish I did). Little pieces of berry in your brew have the exact consistency of phlegm (sp?). Not good drinks.

That's a good idea, but I don't even have a 5gal secondary fermenter yet, although I will be buying one soon. :D Isn't oxidation a fairly big concern if you go for a tertiary?
 
I just racked a really light ale 1.042 OG, 1.010 FG onto 2 lbs of raspberries in my secondary the other day. Pasteurized the berries at 150F for about 15 min and racked on top of the resulting mush. Looks gross, got a nice red secondary krausen in about 24 hours, plan to bottle in 2 weeks. I am excited!!!!

Brewpilot
 
I would definitely love to hear how it turns out, since I won't be brewing mine for a couple more weeks, and it won't go to secondary until almost Christmas.
 
Torchiest said:
That's a good idea, but I don't even have a 5gal secondary fermenter yet, although I will be buying one soon. :D Isn't oxidation a fairly big concern if you go for a tertiary?

Just be careful racking, as always.
 
With my first batch, my brother and I were so paranoid we left the entire neck of each bottle empty, just in case! :eek:

I've gotten over that fear, mostly, at this point, but the specter of oxidation haunts me. However, I like all these ideas, and I think I can safely follow them without too much trouble.
 
Well, SWMBO told me I couldn't buy anything for myself before Christmas, so I'm going to have to postpone Razz Buried, and change around my brewing order, because I don't have anything to use for a secondary fermenter. Oh well, hardly a tragedy. That just means I have a lot of homebrewing goodies to look forward to! :) I'm going to make a second attemp at my first beer, since the recipe was messed up the first time around.
 
Too bad about the delay. I was going to suggest heat pasturization and also a combination of, perhaps, 1/2 crushed berries and 1/2 juice.

The berries have the skins and such which will contribute to the pretty color. And the use of juice should keep the raspberry "snot" at bay and help you to get more yield from the fermenter.

Another possibility would be to put the raspberries into a muslin bag. That may also help keep the amount of raspberry snot at bay.



But I'm new here, so I may be mistaken. Those are just my thoughts on the matter.
 
The muslin bag idea has potential, but I'd be concerned about being able to get it back out afterward. I suppose it's possible though. After the fact, who cares? I could leave a long "pull cord" segement on it and just tug it back out, and if it tears and falls apart, no big deal; I'm washing it out anyway. But that would eliminate the need for a tertiary, I think. :ban:

EDIT: As for the juice, is it even possible to find pure raspberry juice? I'm sure I could find some cran-raspberry blend, but I don't want any other flavors mucking things up. I'll have to look into that.
 
Okay, I've played around with the recipe a fair amount, and I've decided I'm going to shoot for a Raspberrry Wit now. Here's my new recipe:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 52.6 %
2.00 lb Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 21.1 %
1.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 10.5 %
1.00 lb Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 10.5 %
0.50 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 5.3 %

2.00 oz Hallertauer [4.00%] (30 min) Hops 18.5 IBU

0.50 tsp Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 min) Misc

2.00 lb Raspberries (Secondary 2.0 wks) Misc

4.00 oz Raspberry Extract (Bottling 5min) Misc

1 Pkgs Belgian Wit II (White Labs #WLP410) Yeast

Is there anything I'm missing or forgetting, or any other changes that would help? I'm still two weeks away from the brew date, so I'll probably do even yet still more modifications. :cross:
 
Just wanted to ask a couple more questions, out of paranoia. When I add my raspberries, I pasteurize them by heating them to 170ºF for ten minutes, right? Do I need to blend them up into a slurry and then just pour the whole mess into my secondary, and rack on top of that? Is there anything else I need to know before I do this?
 
Torchiest, I am curious as to your decision to retain the coriander and orange peel in this recipe...what's your pov there?
 
I used ~1tsp of coriander and 1oz of sweet orange peel. The beer smelled and tasted faintly of orange after brewing, but the coriander wasn't very prominent. I brewed it last week, and I'm racking it to secondary on the raspberries tomorrow morning. I will, of course, be taking a gravity sample and drinking that to see how it's coming along; I'll update then.
 
Torchiest said:
I used ~1tsp of coriander and 1oz of sweet orange peel. The beer smelled and tasted faintly of orange after brewing, but the coriander wasn't very prominent. I brewed it last week, and I'm racking it to secondary on the raspberries tomorrow morning. I will, of course, be taking a gravity sample and drinking that to see how it's coming along; I'll update then.


I was curious as to the decision to combine raspberries with a more traditional spiced orange/coriander wheat flavor...it seems like it might be an slightly unusual combination. The typical raspberry wheat recipe omits the orange and coriander from what I have seen. What do you expect flavor-wise? Edit: it reminds me of a cranberry sauce recipe that used orange zest and juice for an interesting orangey spicy kick to the tart cranberry flavors.
 
Torchiest said:
Just wanted to ask a couple more questions, out of paranoia. When I add my raspberries, I pasteurize them by heating them to 170ºF for ten minutes, right? Do I need to blend them up into a slurry and then just pour the whole mess into my secondary, and rack on top of that? Is there anything else I need to know before I do this?

They're going to pretty much fall apart into a goopy mess after you pasteruize them, especially if they were frozen first. I wouldn't worry about doing anything else to them.
 
brewt00l said:
I was curious as to the decision to combine raspberries with a more traditional spiced orange/coriander wheat flavor...it seems like it might be an slightly unusual combination. The typical raspberry wheat recipe omits the orange and coriander from what I have seen. What do you expect flavor-wise? Edit: it reminds me of a cranberry sauce recipe that used orange zest and juice for an interesting orangey spicy kick to the tart cranberry flavors.

Yeah, I debated back and forth about that, but in the end, I decided: why not? I think the slight orange flavor will work well with the raspberries, and the amount of coriander I used is very small, so I don't think it will be too strange. The comparison to spiced cranberry sauce is a good one. The other inspiration is Unibroue's Ephemere, which keeps the coriander and orange while adding flavors like apple.

the_bird said:
They're going to pretty much fall apart into a goopy mess after you pasteruize them, especially if they were frozen first. I wouldn't worry about doing anything else to them.

Okay, cool. I was originally thinking fresh raspberries, but they're pretty expensive. I'm going with frozen, I think. I'll compare the prices in the morning.
 
Whew. I bought 2.5lbs of frozen raspberries, and heated them to about 180ºF. It took maybe 20mins to get them to that temp, then I removed them from the heat and let them sit another 20mins to cool off. Then I put them in an ice bath to cool them down some more.

Getting the raspberries into the carboy was a thousand times easier than I expected. Then had fallen apart into pretty small pieces, and the whole thing was more like a sauce than actual fruit. I only had one small clog in my funnel, which cleared after ten seconds on its own, before I had to do anything about it. To think I actually considered getting a giant car oil funnel!

The first small issue was when I was racking the beer on top of the raspberries, I wanted to get as much as possible, and I didn't realize until the last moment that I had hit the trub. I hastily yanked the siphon out of the secondary and splattered trub all over the kitchen floor. A little got into the carboy, but I don't think it should be an issue, hopefully.

The beer is a bit stratified, with alternating pink/red and yellow/orange layers:

6233-Razz-2.JPG


The second small issue is that, as you can see, I've got the carboy on a chair in my kitchen. I need to move it out of there to my carboy hang out, which is in the back of the house. I'm worried about juggling it around and oxidizing the beer. Any advice? How long could I wait in order to expect a nice blanket of CO2 to form? I'd really like to get it out of the kitchen before SWMBO gets home from work in about four hours.

EDIT: Slightly more than an hour later, it's already bubbling again! I think I'll let it go another hour or so, build up a nice CO2 blanket, then move it.
 
It's pretty good, although not quite perfect. I found out my LHBS is carrying canned pasteurized fruit. I believe the brand is Oregon something-or-other. They're these big three pound cans. I'm going to use one of those the next time I make this recipe. It should be much easier than heating and cooling the frozen fruit. I think I'll try blueberries next time, and I think I'm going to try raspberries in my next porter. :ban:

And yeah, I did something like a partial-mash with this one, but I've learned a lot since then, and my technique will be better next time. :)

I sent this beer out as part of the 2007 Homebrew Swap, so it should be getting some reviews in the sampling and critiquing forum soon.
 
Just an update. This beer has aged fantastically, and is far and away the most popular beer I've brewed so far. I'm going to do another batch using blueberries, and then another raspberry batch as well, which I think I will try to keg for a housewarming party coming up in a few months.

Meanwhile, I'm currently pastuerizing fruit for my chocolate cherry porter. I have very high hopes for this one. :D
 
The flavor seemed a bit odd to me at botting time, so I added 4oz of raspberry extract and one pound of lactose to the bottling bucket. The raspberry flavor is fairly prominent, but the beer didn't come out too sweet at all, so it works. I thought there was someting like a semi-burnt or similar flavor a couple months ago, but it seems to have disappeared, or I was misinterpretting a flavor and letting my paranoia about pastuerization distort my perception.

I think the combination of extract and fruit was just right. The fruit gave it a natural goodness, and the extract added some punch. Either seperately probably wouldn't work as well. I'm not sure if I'll add cherry extract to the porter, as I don't want that flavor to be absolutely front and center, but it's still a possibility.
 
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