Cloudy cider

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

gammonite

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
Location
morden
This is the second year I have made sparkling apple cider. The first year's batch worked brilliantly. Crystal clear sparkling cider. This year's batch has progressed to the point where I would normally bottle. However, I find that the clarification process did not work like last year. There is a fair amount of sediment as a result of adding he clarifying agent but the wine is anything but clear. Maybe this is the dreaded pectin haze. I did heat up the raw apple juice but not to the boiling point. Last year I boiled it hard and it cleared perfectly. I boil our regular apple juice and even without a clarifier it is mostly clear.

So my question is 3 fold:

1 - Will racking and adding more clarifier a second time clear the wine?

2 - What about using a bonvino wine filter? If so will it filter out the yeast as well? I want to have some left over to carbonate the bottles. I have read that a #3 filter will remove the yeast mostly. What about a #2 filter?

3 - Will I just have to live with a cloudy brew?

Here is the recipe I used:

20ml yeast nutrient
Packet champagne yeast
2.2kg dextrose
1l white white concentrate
Apple juice to make 24 litres

Initial SG was 1.048 dropping to 1.000 after 9 days, racked at 1.000 and holding at 0.994 after 8 days. Added the clarifying agent on day 16. It is now day 19.
 
That's a fair whack of sugar. Did you add any pectin enzyme to your recipe? As a rule of thumb - stronger = longer.

I'm quite sure a wine filter won't filter out the yeast, it's microscopic, and wine filters will only filter out big stuff. You have yeast on your face, it's everywhere!
 
A .5 micron filter will clear it, but I'd try racking and clarifiers first (as you could really clog up the filter pads if it's not pretty clear to begin with!). And yes, it would filter out the yeast also so you'd need to add more yeast to carbonate.

Since it's less than three weeks since starting, though, I'd wait at least a few more weeks and then try cold stabilizing first.
 
That's a fair whack of sugar. Did you add any pectin enzyme to your recipe? As a rule of thumb - stronger = longer.

I'm quite sure a wine filter won't filter out the yeast, it's microscopic, and wine filters will only filter out big stuff. You have yeast on your face, it's everywhere!
Yup, that is a lot of sugar. It is quite strong. I did not use any enzymes. I will wait awhile longer and then try again. Thanks!
 
A .5 micron filter will clear it, but I'd try racking and clarifiers first (as you could really clog up the filter pads if it's not pretty clear to begin with!). And yes, it would filter out the yeast also so you'd need to add more yeast to carbonate.

Since it's less than three weeks since starting, though, I'd wait at least a few more weeks and then try cold stabilizing first.
Thanks for that. I think I will wait another week or so and then rack and clarify again. It is weird becasue the first time I made it you could almost watch it clear. I may try the wine filter and charge the result with a small amount of yeast when I add the sugar.
 
Go for cold crashing, if that doesn't work- give it a week or two- try bentonite/isenglass/polyclar and that should work. More time with a bigger beer/cider is necessary. let it sit a while before bottling - no sense in rushing it.
 
Go for cold crashing, if that doesn't work- give it a week or two- try bentonite/isenglass/polyclar and that should work. More time with a bigger beer/cider is necessary. let it sit a while before bottling - no sense in rushing it.
I agree, no sense in rushing. I will wait a bit longer. I hope to make it sparkling. In the end if it is not clear, it won't really bother me too much.
 
If the yeast is active, you will have a hard time clearing the suspended particles. Time would be one solution (or, racking off the lees again and waiting).

If your pH is on the high side (as it is in much cider) AND the “fining agent” you already used is an organic protein fining agent like gelatin or isinglass (especially if you used much of these) you may have a case of haze from “overfining” (has to do with the fining agent’s inability to bind to negatively charged particles and consequently leaving your protein fining agent floating around in the suspension) ... if this is the case, I’d go with bentonite to try and correct (pull that protein back out) ... after which you could then also filter, or at least let it settle out for a couple weeks.

Not sure what sort of fining agent you used ... if you haven’t used an protein fining agent yet, you might try bentonite followed by isinglass (isinglass provided your pH is not much above about 3.8 or so). (I'd use isinglass rather than gelatin which strips out tannins more harshly. )

In any case, if you use bentonite make sure you use the appropriate dosage to avoid stripping out aroma and flavor.

Polyclar as mentioned above is also a possibility ... it is also not quite as harsh in stripping out aromas and certain tannins as it only works on certain polyphenols. It also does not have the overfining issue in high pH wines as it does not act by electrical charge of the particles.

Note that if you are going to bottle condition and you use fining agents like Sparkolloid or isinglass, you will have to add more yeast as those will strip out any yeast from suspension.
 
Okay, I have managed to clarify this batch of cider by filtering it. I was worried about the flavour being stripped out like some people warn. I noticed no difference and am very pleased with the clarity.

I want this to be sparkling. I assume I will have to pitch in some yeast and more sugar before bottling. My question, is: how much sugar and how much and what type of yeast?

My previous batch did not require additional yeast. I did not filter that batch though.
 
You're very welcome. Here's a bit more ... another novel ... too much time on my hands today ...

Okay, I have managed to clarify this batch of cider by filtering it. I was worried about the flavour being stripped out like some people warn. I noticed no difference and am very pleased with the clarity. ... My question, is: how much sugar and how much and what type of yeast?

Ultra filtration can remove tannins but I think it is more a consideration with the use of fining agents.

For the sugar ...
For carbonating, you could use priming tabs (sugar tablets) for ease of use - available at the brewers supply ... or for sugar the typical measure I think most use is about ¾ to 1 cup sugar to 5 gallons wort/must.

While I’m at it ... just for the hell of it ...
Doing it the technical way though means knowing about how many “volumes” of CO2 your beverage should properly have (i.e. ale verses lager verses stout verses cider etc), and then knowing how much CO2 is already in the wort or must. The amount of CO2 already absorbed has to do with the temperature during ferment while all that CO2 was bubbling around.

Compared to beer ... the *suggested* volume of CO2 for cider is kinda all over the map ... from 1.0 to 3.5.
(here’s a good list for some suggested volumes of C02 ... http://tinyurl.com/3vl9kg3 )
I’d say, shooting almost right up the middle would be about 2.4 ... so ...

If your fermentation was done at, say, 70*f, you should have about .85 of a volume of CO2 in it already (provided you have not off-gassed it in some way).
Sooo ... 2.4 - .85 leaves a CO2 shortfall of 1.55.
To get 1.55 volumes into your cider by adding priming sugar ... 1/2oz of sucrose (cane or beet sugar) per gallon will ferment to give 1 volume of CO2 ... so, 1.55 x ½ oz = about .775 oz sugar which is about 4.65 teaspoons per gallon or 3.875 ounces for 5 gallons.
So if there’s 6tea per oz then 3.875x6 = 23.25 teaspoons per 5 gallons, or just very slightly under half a cup (0.484 cup).
Personally, I like the fizz ... I’d just go with the standard ¾ cup per 5 gallons and see what happens. If you are planning to refrigerate or pasteurize the bottles to stop the yeast once they are up to pressure you should be fine either way even if you do overprime a bit.

As far as the yeast ...
If you do have to add more yeast to prime, I'd typically use the same yeast as I’d used in the ferment. Although in a difficult environment ... low temp, high alcohol, low pH etc ... I might select a yeast based on that too.

For cider, I’d think the same yeast would be fine.

Another exception might be if I also intended to bottle pasteurize the wine (with hot water), and was concerned about flavor change or issues with pectin, and my fermenting yeast had been something that was somewhat more heat tolerant like Wyeast 3267 Bordeaux, Lalvin EC-1118, or Red Star Premier Cuvee etc ... in which case, I’d use something with a little less temperature tolerance (after trying to fine-out or remove the fermenting yeast from suspension as possible). But if you used an ale yeast (or somesuch) you should be good to go. In an ale yeast, Nottingham is less heat tolerant than, for instance, Windsor ... and Windsor a bit less heat tolerant than most wine yeasts. Pasteurization concerns though are probably an odd exception though.
 
Hmmmm.. I thought I posted this already. Oh well, here goes again.

Jacob_Marley: Keep those novels coming. Lots of great information there.

I do have one question though. Being a details person (probably too detailed at times) and the fact that I live in the metric world but still use gallons, I am not sure what gallons you are refering to. In Canada, we use Imperial gallons generally. Is it the Imperial (160oz) gallon or American (128oz) gallon that you are referencing? There is substantial difference in volume. My guess it is the American gallon. If I just follow your ratio, I would under prime which is no big deal. I want the result to be fizzy though.

Thanks for all the detail!
 
You’re welcome.
Yeah, I can be kinda detail oriented. In my previous profession (finance) I was the guy who enjoyed reading tax code for humors ... and a couple beers can result in a couple hours of witty banter on credit default swaps and risk analysis ... woo-hoo!.

Being data manic is good for developing competency but sometimes a hard way to go through life ;-)

Yup, the american gallon. Without maintaining the ratios and converting the numbers, carbonating in that technical manner would become too inaccurate (if accuracy was what one was after). It doesn't take much to get the volume of CO2 off considerably ... changes as small as 1 tenth (0.1) of an ounce ( 1 g/l ) of priming sugar can produce noticable carbonation changes when you drink it ... as one tenth of an ounce might change the carbonation by somewheres around .25 of a Volume.

But like I was saying, I like the fizz and I'd err to the upper side of the range. You can always halt the fermentation (pressurizing) by putting the bottles in the icebox or pasteurizing.

1 oz (weight) = 28.4 g
1 US gall = 128 US fl oz = 3.8 litre
1 Imperial gall = 160 Imp fl oz = 4.5 litres
1 US fl oz = 29.6 ml
1 Imp fl oz = 28.4 ml


One other point for those of us here in the States, those nice "gallon jugs" that Gallo wine (and others) comes in that are so useful for brewing and vinting ... those are actually 4 liter jugs ... 135 ounces - not 128. It's usually not so important but there are occasions where it can make a difference .... like measuring to carbonate to a specific volume of pressure.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top