Primary Fermenting in a Corny Keg

Rob,
thats exactly what happened to mine, I hooked the blow off on the out side and it purged all 5 gallons out. Someone suggested to remove the dip tube and thats what I have been doing. I remove the dip tube and hook the blow off there. When I go to transfer I just put the poppet and dip tube back in the post, and transfer using co2.
I also go through a filter into the serving keg, makes it nice and easy to clean up.

Hi all, just got through reading the entire thread, and will be trying this soon. I just bought two kegs for my wedding, and this is just adding to the excitement.

Are any of you simply pulling the yeast out to serve directly from primary? Or lager in this primary?

My biggest question, though, is how to oxygenate without foaming all over the place? (I kept looking for bigger fermenters because of foaming while oxygenating with 02/stone)

There is very little foam with fermcap.
I put it in right before the boil; there is no foam up during the boil, no foam during oxygenating, and no foam at fermentation. I fill mine to about 1" from the top. No changes to the keg.

It will still blow off some so I use a second keg; hook the OUT from the primary to the IN of the sacrifice keg (little bit of sterilized water on the bottom of the sacrifice keg). Insert a QD in the sacrifice keg IN so the gas can escape and now I have a yeast collector. I use this clean yeast for my next batch.
Moving forward; I plan on replacing the sacrifice keg with a clear water filter housing and using a spunding valve to do a pressurized fermentation.

mredge73 said:

There is very little foam with fermcap.
I put it in right before the boil; there is no foam up during the boil, no foam during oxygenating, and no foam at fermentation. I fill mine to about 1" from the top. No changes to the keg.

It will still blow off some so I use a second keg; hook the OUT from the primary to the IN of the sacrifice keg (little bit of sterilized water on the bottom of the sacrifice keg). Insert a QD in the sacrifice keg IN so the gas can escape and now I have a yeast collector. I use this clean yeast for my next batch.
Moving forward; I plan on replacing the sacrifice keg with a clear water filter housing and using a spunding valve to do a pressurized fermentation.

Click to expand...

My results were different with the gas drops. I did use baby gas drops and not fermacap, but my batches (3 now with the drops) had 2.5" kruesen in each 5 gallon carboy. I read on a fermacap thread that you need to add more drops once the beer is in the fermenter as it drops out in the boil kettle during chilling. Not sure if using a plate chiller or dumping 100% of your chilled wort into your primary would make a difference as to whether the drops would continue to work or not.

2.5" isn't that bad; so in that case I would fill 3" from the top instead of 1" from the top.
If my objective was to not have any blowoff whatsoever, I would add a few extra drops in the fermenter and not fill it so high. But I like to collect a little blowoff, I just don't want it to get out of hand.

My main fermentation vessel is one of the Morebeer heated and cooled conical fermenters, but it's for 10 gallon batches. Starting with the accidental acquisition of significant post-boil wort with a Bitter I made, I began doing experimental beers in a 5 gal corny each brew day. The current batch is a Fig Brown Ale that is going ape in a corny - pushed out krausen yeast wort/beer since it started to ferment. Today I made the dumb mistake of taking the bubbler airlock cap off to try to clean it because the pressure was building up significantly (I thought I released it all -- HA!) and it spewed lots of yeast slurry all over the top of the corny, the walls, etc. I'm sure there's still more yeast in, but wow. I do think I overfilled the corny this time because I got a ridiculous amount of extract.

Then I went into the brewery proper and noticed that the 10gal Conical had some overflow too.

London Ale III from Wyeast. The packets were near bursting when pitched.

But my experience with the Krausen issue is that if it's happening the pressure is outward and nasties aren't getting in. I've been spraying with IP alcohol.

My first ferment was simply attaching a long hose to the IN port (air port) and into a bucket of water. This is how it's done in a production brewery. Worked great. Lately I've been using a cap with a blowoff airlock. Might go back to the hose, to be honest.

mredge73 said:

2.5" isn't that bad; so in that case I would fill 3" from the top instead of 1" from the top.
If my objective was to not have any blowoff whatsoever, I would add a few extra drops in the fermenter and not fill it so high. But I like to collect a little blowoff, I just don't want it to get out of hand.

Click to expand...

Mredge,

Is this a purpose for the collected blowoff or do you just like getting some out of the way?

I collect it in a second corny with ~ 1 quart of sterilized water at the bottom. This allows me to automatically "top crop" my yeast for my next batch (or storage). I am essentially collecting a small amount of yeast rich krausen and dissolving it in water. This makes washing easy because I don't have to deal with trub (just a few hop partials).

Wanted to thank all you guys for this long running thread. Recently made the transition to brewing in corny kegs and absolutely love it. Saves time (pre-carbonating), space, and overall more control.

So far I've been doing 9 gallon batches and splitting it between two 5 gallon cornys, but am finding I have what looks like a LOT of headspace. Not using fermcap or anything. Just blowoff tubes attached to the gas stem. I may mess around with 9.5 or 4.75 gallon batches and see how much I can get away with. Guess it depends on how vigorous the fermentation is.

On my first batch I removed the blow off tubes after 1 week (once the vigorous fermentation appeared to have stopped), replaced the poppet valves and have been letting it naturally carbonate. I choose to vent it down to the levels I wanted it carbonated at, but I'm wondering if I should have just let the pressure keep rising up to 30 or so? Probably doesn't matter.


Is there a safe maximum amount of psi I need to worry about in the cornies? Is it a good idea to keep constantly checking the psi, or is this something you can walk away from and not worry about?

I have pressure tested mine with my air compressor set at 110psi. I have heard that they are good up to 160psi but if they are used I couldn't be 100% sure.
Keep in mind that soda is carbonated in the range of 35-50psi; you are using a soda keg right?

30psi at 70F should net you 2.23 volumes of carbonation.
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/ForceCarbonation.html
You should do some reading in this thread; it is long but informative:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/closed-system-pressurized-fermentation-technique-44344/

Here is my new force carb system:

Thanks! Seems like I shouldn't have vented mine down to 18 or so. Was leaving town for a couple days and just worried about the pressure building up to high! (sounds like it isn't much of a concern.)

We have made many batches using a corney keg as primary and secondary. We simply attach a gas out line and put in an old plastic water jug. We use a chest freezer as a fermentation chamber to control the temperature. You can find a lid online that has a hole for a standard airlock, but we have never had a problem with the method we use. We have not modified the kegs in any way and use them to serve in a different batch if needed. We have done this for 2 years almost every month with three kegs, and we had a problem one time with a dry hop bag that broke and we had difficulty getting the beer out. We finally siphoned it out. We have only done lagers. We "burp" the kegs to get rid of trub after the first week. We used to transfer to a secondary (a different corney keg) but no longer do that. We also have not dry hopped as we liked our Pivo better without that. We just use CO2 and a "trub" line (Black Beer Out with an open end) to dump the trub. We also do a trub dump just prior to transferring to the final keg. We use a black to black QDs to transfer between kegs. We also fill the destination keg with CO2.
Very easy and clean and you can put a filter in line if you want to filter. We try not to move the keg we are transferring from and our beer can be very clear with this method so we no longer filter.
You must clean the corney well after fermenting in it. Normally the top part of the keg is most in need of cleaning.

Although it looks like we transfer with an open top, we do not. We actually have the lid on and use the same gray gas blow off tube connected to the destination Gas side. We hook up the CO2 to the ferment keg and transfer to final keg using low psi. The white rags are "Dave Rags" which were soaked in Star San and put over the open top when we transferred the Wort to the fermenter. We put on the lids after oxygenation and pitching the yeast and put the "Dave Rag" over the top as a precaution as the lids may not be 100% air tight. We also do that with regular air locks and stoppers.

Great info Oakbarn.

What ID hose are you guys using to push beer from primary to secondary?

Sherpa FE said:

Rob,
thats exactly what happened to mine, I hooked the blow off on the out side and it purged all 5 gallons out. Someone suggested to remove the dip tube and thats what I have been doing. I remove the dip tube and hook the blow off there. When I go to transfer I just put the poppet and dip tube back in the post, and transfer using co2.
I also go through a filter into the serving keg, makes it nice and easy to clean up.

Click to expand...

Why not hook up the blow off to the CO2 port rather than the beer side?

Yep, hooking the blow off to the gas side means it is above the liquid level, not below it since the beverage out goes to the bottom.

We only use this process for lager yeasts that we are fermenting at 65 degrees and below. We do not use this for ale yeast. We have several pieces of unique equipment although it is not used exclusively for fermentation that we find very useful. That being said, you could use the same equipment that you use to ferment in a bottle or bucket for fermentation in a Cornelius Keg.
Equipment: (We use Ball Lock so Black is “Out” and Gray is “In “
Primary Keg : A regular Cornelius keg clean and sanitized.
Secondary Keg: A regular Cornelius keg clean and sanitized.
Serving Keg: A regular Cornelius keg clean and sanitized.
Trub Line: A Black connecter with a beer line that is open.
Keg Blow Off: A Gray connecter with a beer line that is open.
Transfer Hose: A Black to Black with a beer line between.
Dave Rag: A Paper Towel that is soaked in Star San the squeezed dry.
Waste Keg: A bad Cornelius keg with both posts and no lid. We got one that did not hold pressure at a bargain price. You really only need the “Out” post.
Star San Keg: A regular Cornelius keg filled with Star San: This is a regular keg that we keep around filled with sanitizer that we use all the time to clean lines including our taps when we do not have beer running.
CO2 Keg: A regular Cornelius keg clean and sanitized. This is just so can pump CO2 into the “Out” of the Secondary and Serving Kegs so as to fill the kegs with CO2 from the bottom. This is not a special keg but just one that is used for the transfer. If I do not have an extra, I just use the regular Gray in off the CO2 supply and use the pressure relief on the lid to fill with CO2.
Jug Airlock: A one gallon distilled water jug half filled with Star San.
1. Boil the Wort.
2. Cool the Wort with a Plate Chiller and fill the Primary Keg covered with a Dave Rag.
3. Leave at least 2 inches or more from the top (give some head space).
4. Oxygenate the Wort. We use welding oxygen.
5. Add the Yeast.
6. Put on the Lid.
7. Put the Primary Keg into our fermentation chamber. We use a chest freezer controlled by a Ranco controller.
8. Connect the Keg Blow Off to the “In” side of the Primary Keg. Put the tube into the Jug Airlock.
9. Ferment according to schedule and temp.
10. After 7 days at fermentation temp, we do a diacytel rest in the Primary Keg. (Up 5 degrees a day till 67 degrees, wait two days and then back down to fermentation temperature.)
11. Purge the Secondary Keg with CO2 with the lid on. We do this by connecting the CO2 supply at 5 psi to our CO2 keg. We then connect our transfer line to the CO2 Keg and the Secondary Keg. A Keg Blow Off is also connected to the “In” side of the Secondary Keg. Run CO2 for a minute or so. This purges all oxygen out of the Secondary prior to and beer being introduced to the Secondary Keg.
12. After the oxygen is purged, we disconnect the CO2 Keg and put the CO2 Gas Supply to the “in” of the Primary Keg. Try not to disturb the Primary Keg.
13. We connect a Trub line to the “Out” of the Primary with the open line in the Waste Keg. Crud will come out into the Waste Keg.
14. Once the beer runs clear, we disconnect the Trub Out.
15. Clean the Trub Out with the Star San Keg and the Waste Keg
16. Connect the Transfer Line from the Primary to the “Out” on the Waste Keg and fill the line with clear beer. Sometimes there is a small amount of trub again.
17. Disconnect from the Waste Keg and connect to the Secondary Keg. Flow the beer to the Secondary. When trub starts to flow again, disconnect from the secondary.
18. Clean the Transfer Hose with the Star San Keg and the Waste Keg.
19. Remove the Primary Keg from the fermentation chamber.
20. Place the Secondary Keg into the fermentation chamber with the Keg Blow Off and Jug Airlock.
21. Clean the Primary Keg. I fill with tap water and rinse twice. I then add one gallon of warm PBW (one ounce in 1 gallon water). Let Sit 30 minutes. Put on Lid and turn upside down for 30 minutes. Re right and fill with water to the brim. Leave overnight. I then use a nylon scubbie and a carboy brush to clean the inside. I look inside with a mirror on a stick. If I have any doubt I repeat the entire process. Rinse well.
22. I repeat steps 11 to 21 from the Secondary to the Serving Keg, except that we have a Transfer Hose with a Filter if we want to filter the beer but we have not done that in a while as we are getting clear beer with our process.

Hi all, I just brewed my first in-keg beer on May 28th. (a little over a week)

II have a blowoff tube in the gas QD (no poppet removal) , and have been fermenting well for over a week. Now it's slowing down.

Can I take off the disconnect and let it carb- or will it hurt the yeast at this stage?
will this interfere with conditioning?
I'm planning on leaving it at 68 for another 2 weeks, so the 3rd week will be pressurized. (if you all say it's a good idea)


additional question:

How do you temp control? I have a ranco/chest freezer setup, but I don't know where to attach the probe. (I used to ferment in buckets and attach to side)

Heya all

I am looking to move to the corny keg method for primary fermentation.

If I boil 6.0 gallon batches (7 gallon boil) - and split this between two 5 gallon corny kegs - and add 2 drops of fermcap per corny - I think Ill be in good shape for head room etc.

Can I just take a standard gas disconnect and fit a tube on for a blow off? Do I really need to remove the gas dip tube?

Not sure what to do with the liquid dip tube. I could cut it and avoid picking up trub/yeast as much as possible. Or I could leave it there and be able to harvest my yeast....

Then transfer both cornys into either the secondary for dry hopping or the serving corny.

am I missing anything?

adamtroxel said:

Can I just take a standard gas disconnect and fit a tube on for a blow off? Do I really need to remove the gas dip tube?

Click to expand...

yes and no.

If you only have 3 gallons in each, you probably can use the gas disconnect. Especially if you use fermcap or something. One caution, if for some reason the beer would need a blowoff, it will cause problems and probably clog. I bet it would be ok though.

Regarding the dip tube, my trub/yeast cakes typically fits mostly in the concave bottom. If you bent a dip tube so it was against the edge of the keg, you would probably get very little gunk. Full disclosure, I don't dump my cold break from the boil kettle into my fermenters.

A question I forgot to ask -

If you were given the task of setting up a corny as a fermenter - how would you do it?

Id like to learn from others' experience and do the correct job the first time

-adam

Add wort to corny. O2 it. Pitch yeast. Add fermcap. Take off gas nut and little tube. Push on 1/2" vinyl tubing with worm clamp for blowoff.

There isn't really anything to it. Although, if you mess up and put the blowoff on the liquid side, please take pictures.

Don't put a full 5 gallons into it, you might get 4 with a lot of blowoff....

I use these all the time for lagers. I do nothing special except to have a blow off tube connected to one of the gray ball lock connectors that goes into a gal plastic bottle filled with star san ( I like the way it foams as I can "see" it is fermenting as there is not a lot of bubbling like on an ale. We fill the corney with about 2 inches of head room.

We:

1. Sanitize one last time.
2. Move the cooled wort into the Corney (covered with a "Dave Rag" (Paper towel wetted with Star San)
3. Add Oxygen
4. Add Yeast
5. Put on Lid
6. Pressure to 30 psi (to seal lid)
7. Let off pressure
8. Move to fermentaion chamber
9. Put on Blow off Tube
10. Drink a Home Brew.

I have never done an ale in one butt think maybe 3 to 4 gallons would be max you could do.

You can also get rid of the trub by simply putting a little pressure and using the black out to dump the trub after a day or so.

I have even dry hopped but that can cause them to clog where you might have to back pressure the out or siphon to another container if that does not work.

BTW: Do not connect the Blow Off to the Out. You will find about a gallon of Wort in your fermentation chamber an wonder "W T H?".

adamtroxel said:

A question I forgot to ask -

If you were given the task of setting up a corny as a fermenter - how would you do it?

Id like to learn from others' experience and do the correct job the first time

-adam

Click to expand...

Adam, I'm pressure fermenting in a corny. I got the idea from WortMonger's thread. I am able to put nearly 5 gallons of wort in the corny, I stop at the welded seam, add my dry yeast seal and shake, un-seal and add 10 drops of foam control, re-seal. I have very little blow-off. I also pressure transfer to a serving corny, no secondary. You can look at my photos in the link to see what I do, oh yes, also BIAB. ~richard

RonRock said:

I like the built in handle. No worries about dropping a glass Carboy. Stainless beats plastic always.

Click to expand...

Plastic, Glass, Stainless, SHOOT!!!

adamtroxel said:

A question I forgot to ask -

If you were given the task of setting up a corny as a fermenter - how would you do it?

Id like to learn from others' experience and do the correct job the first time

-adam

Click to expand...

Here's a good YouTube video on it.


[ame]http://youtu.be/29F7QR6vT4U[/ame]

Just thought I would add my 0.02 to the whole "no difference between fermenting in a corny or in a carboy" conversation. I talked to my waste water treatment prof (damn you chemical engineering curriculum!) and we just covered a section on zone settling. I asked the prof after class what effect reducing the diameter of a fermentation vessel would have on the attenuation of the yeast, and my prof had a few things to say.

She pointed out that due to the similarity in the size of culture mid way through fermentation, the yeast inside the corny will flocculate sooner. Since the same number of yeast cells are confined to a smaller space, they hit critical density sooner, and will fall to the bottom of the fermentation vessel. Additionally, having a smaller diameter will reduce the surface area of wort that the yeast comes in contact with, which would prolong fermentation times. Needless to say, she made the point that she couldn't see why a corny keg would facilitate greater consumption of maltose by the yeast in these conditions.

This was all speculation on her part, but it seemed to make sense to me. This is purely qualitative, and I think someone will need to brew an 8 gallon batch, and separate the wort into a carboy and corny keg. The yeast would ideally be cultured so that we can be sure that they have the same viability. Finally, readings should be taken every couple of days so the progress for each can be tracked over the fermentation period (who know, maybe the corny ferments quicker, and flocculates sooner as well!).

I don't have a corny to spare, so I'm hoping someone brave out there is willing to do this experiement!

Cheers,
Jay

I've been fermenting this way for at least 4 years now, and I can say from my own brewing that attenuation has never been an issue. In addition when I first transitioned from bucket fermenters to kegs I brewed many of the same recipes I had done in the past, and there was no significant difference in attenuation between batches. Similarly, all of my ferments are temp controlled, and my process is standardized for yeast pitching and aeration. IOW, a fairly controlled set of parameters existed outside of the change in fermenting vessels.

Bottom line, perhaps the overall volume(5-6 gallons) and relatively minor decrease in size does not have as great of an impact in this scale; I am not disputing the science, but based on the equipment and observation techniques available to us outside of a well equipped lab, I feel very comfortable fermenting in kegs (originally corners but the last couple of years 1/6 barrel sankeys), and see no reason to scare people off from using them either.

There are many factors that can impact your fermentation, but fermenter size is not one I would concern myself with too much at this level- temp control, proper yeast pitching rates, and oxygenation of wort are the biggest factors I have experienced over the years. If those are dialed in and you notice a perceptible difference in your beer post fermentation, then maybe switch back to a bucket or carboy. I still believe though that even if you notice a measured difference in attenuation, the perception of the final beer is what matters.

My $0.02!

I have also sorta have done the same with Ales. We have a 14 Gallon Stout Conical and Carboys. When we brew a 15 gallon Batch, It will not all fit in the Stout Conical, so we have to use a carboy. We have them in the same room and I normally make a starter. We cannot tell the difference between that brewed in the Stout Conical or the Carboy and the FG is normally exactly the same.

Fermentation Size is a factor in brewing, but I do not think it has much effect in Home Brew vessels.

Very good thread even if it is old, I learned a lot. I suppose I will try using corny kegs as primary and see what happens.

I've been using a corny keg to ferment in for a while now. I like the stainless steel aspect of it, as it's indestructible! The handles are also really nice for carrying it. Also, they're a breeze to clean! Unless your elbow doesn't fit inside the opening that is...then it'd be a pain.

I use the regular cap with the pressure relief valve still on it. I did however remove both posts to expose the threads, and then use tubing and hose clamps to make two little blowoff tubes. Hasn't failed me yet even with really active fermentations.

4 gallons is about as much as I trust in there so too much doesn't get blown off. I have ended up with 1 batch of over-carbed beer that I attribute to under attenuation in fermentation due to a small batch size. Perhaps 3 gallons made it into the fermentor. This was alllll my fault though, nothing to do with the equipment!

hey i just tried my first fermentation in a corny keg and transferred last night .Here is a guide I found while searching.
http://www.terifahrendorf.com/Closed-Pressurized-Fermenatation.pdf
So far excellent way to ferment 60 bucks for an extra keg its worth it.