Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

What a thread! Thanks for keeping this going.

It looks like some yeasts are being suggested as better when there is some sweetness left in the cider. If I wanted to ferment dry, are there any yeasts I should be looking into, that do well in that kind of cider?

Holy moly! I just finished re-reading this sticky. I first read it back in 2009 and I was even surprised to see a couple of comments of my own that I had forgotten about.

I took last year off from cider because Michigan's crop was killed by the drought and a late frost. Juice was going to cost $8/gal so we decided to lay off for a year. And what a difference this year! The trees are falling over because they have so many apples.

Anyway, Kevin thanks again for the wonderful resource and for being such a patient person answering the same questions over and over.

Last weekend I bought a new batch and after reading though this thread I've decided that I'm going to try 3056 yeast with 2/3 turbinado & 1/3 dextrose to bring it up to 1.065, stopping the ferment at around 1.020 for a sweeter cider.

I'll be kegging and probably drinking it as soon as it carbs up so storage isn't really much of an issue.

The questions that I did have that I didn't see answered previously are:


The juice I have is unpasteurized and without preservatives and I don't plan on adding anything (other than the sugar and yeast).

It looks like some yeasts are being suggested as better when there is some sweetness left in the cider. If I wanted to ferment dry, are there any yeasts I should be looking into, that do well in that kind of cider?

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I've had decent results with D47, 71B, Wy1275 Wy4184 for fermenting dry. E1118 and DV10 are OK if you have good cider apples. Typically if you ferment all the way dry, the quality of the apples is going to matter more and it will typically take half a year or more to age before you get the peak flavor.

Have you ever used ferm-cap in your wheat yeast fermentations to keep the krausen down? I've used it quite a bit in my beer brewing and it's worked pretty well.

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No - It might be worth trying to see what it did to the flavor. All of the cider proteins going back into the mix would probably have some affect on the flavor, but might be OK. Not having to deal with blowoff tubes would be a time saver.

What's a typical time-line for 3056 assuming I can keep the temperature at 60 (or 55 even)? I have to go out of town a few times this month and I'm trying to time it so that I don't miss the golden opportunity to stop the fermentation at the right time.

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I'd guess around 4 weeks if you can keep it at a steady 60F, but could be plus or minus up to a week depending on how strong the smack pack is, how much natural nutrient is in the cider. If you have temp control you could always drop the temp and slow it down if you think it might get done when you are out of town. Or bring the temps up if you want to finish earlier. I crashed my first batch of 3056 this season after 9 days at 62-68F.

So far so good... This photo is four days in to fermentation. I used four drops of ferm-cap at a temperature of 55 degrees. My yeast was a couple of months old so I'm not sure if that would factor in too much, but as of now no need for the blow off tube.



I just checked the gravity because I was worried about how fast it might be moving, but after 4 days it has only dropped 3 points. I guess I can just sit back and watch for a while. I'm going to raise the temperature to 60 to get it rolling a little quicker.

I wish that I could get a hold of some of those brew balls (that sounds funny). Seems like they would come in handy for ball-parking when to start checking the gravity.

I wish that I could get a hold of some of those brew balls (that sounds funny). Seems like they would come in handy for ball-parking when to start checking the gravity.

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Yep, the brew ball have saved my cider more than a few times - including this last batch. The first week of fermentation, temps were nice and cool. I was able to keep the range from about 62 to 66 by opening a window in the basement at night. We pressed on a Thursday, and by the following Friday night (8 days later), all 8 batches had both balls floating - so SG was at least 1.018 on all the batches. On Saturday, we had another warm spell, and the basement temps warmed up to 68F - but I didnt notice until Saturday evening when I went to look at how things were going and of the 8 batches, only one had a single ball that was floating - all the others had sunk. Checking with a hydrometer, the Notty had dropped to 1.008 and the Brupaks and 3056 batches were all at 1.010 - so they had all dropped at least 8 to 10 points in just one day when the temp hit 68F. I was not expecting that at all, and I ended up staying up until about 1 in the morning making space in the fridge and then crashing the first 5 batches. If it hadnt been for the brew balls, I probably wouldnt have checked the gravities until Sunday afternoon, and at the rate those carboys were going, it might have been too late for most of them.

So it seems that 68F is a major temp threshold for the yeast - because that is when they really took off. Also, pitching the 2 batches that I sulfited a day later didnt seem to make any difference - by Saturday night, they were all at the same SG.

I was only able to crash the first 5 batches for 2 days, because by then I needed to crash the last 3 batches. So I kegged the unsulfited Brupaks and 3056 batches (which taste great, and I have been enjoying for the past couple of weeks) and racked the Notty and the sulfited Brupaks and 3056 batches to 5 gallon carboys, to clear up.

A few days later, the sulfited Brupaks and 3056 batches started up a light fermentation and I had to re-crash them again to get them stable. I ended up having to recrash the WLP005, WLP041 and Wy3068 also to get them still - so I was doing musical chairs with carboys in the fridge for about a week. Thankfully, the Notty stopped dead at 1.008 and got nice and clear on the first crash, so I didnt have to worry about that one. I let it sit for a couple weeks and just kegged it. Its a little drier than I wanted, and tastes drier than 1.008. Especially compared to the Brupaks and 3056 batches which are only 2 points higher but seem much sweeter. The Notty has a great apple flavor though. I'm pretty sure its going to be a hit with my wine drinking friends. We'll see this weekend.

At this point, the difference between the sulfited and unsulfited batches is very subtle - at least to me. They are all the same SG and the sulfited batches are just a little more bitter tasting in the finish, but the taste could pass for extra tannin to me. So a half dose of sulfite seems to work OK from an early drinkability perspective, and going by last season's experience, should help with longevity. OTOH, my girlfriend does not like the sulfited batches at all - she says they have a horrible aftertaste. That was about the same reaction she had last season, but 6 months later, they tasted OK to her, so hopefully these will turn out the same in a few months. The WLP005, WLP041 and Wy3068 batches all taste great to me as well, but unfortunately I dont have enough room in the fridge to tap them yet, and they could use a little more time to clear anyway.

CvilleKevin said:

I've had decent results with D47, 71B, Wy1275 Wy4184 for fermenting dry. E1118 and DV10 are OK if you have good cider apples. Typically if you ferment all the way dry, the quality of the apples is going to matter more and it will typically take half a year or more to age before you get the peak flavor.

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Thanks for the tips. I appreciate it.

I'm a fan of Basque style cider, which is tough to find around here (and expensive when you can). I know Basque method doesn't use any pitched yeast, but I want more control than I'd get from a fully wild fermentation. I'm expecting to get unpasteurized cider, hit it with half the usual Kmeta, pitch yeast, and just let it go. I fully expect to bulk age for a while, then bottle age for a good time, too. Hopefully, I'll get something good out of it - dry, a little tart, some interesting flavors from the wild stuff that wasn't hit too hard by the Kmeta. I'll have to do some split batches and see what comes of it.

Can someone share more info about these brew balls and where to find them?

I'm a fan of Basque style cider, which is tough to find around here

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I've only had a few Basque ciders, which were not all that dry, but the acidity made them seem more dry than they were. You might want to try a wheat yeast with no sulfites. The ones I've made have a tendency to go through a weird stage after 6-9 months, which often tastes somewhat like a Basque style to me.

Can someone share more info about these brew balls and where to find them?

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I dont believe they are made any more. I was in contact with the guys who made them, but I havent heard from them in years. In some ways they were ahead of their time, because they are not all that useful for most beer brewing - but they are very handy for cider and high gravity beers, both of which are becoming more popular. Hopefully someone will start making something a similar product. In the meantime, keep an eye out in your local craigslist for brewers who are selling their stuff. A friend of mine found a set that way. Most of the stock set is not all that useful but the 20 and 10 balls are handy for cider. Maybe the 5 also if you like it toward the dry side. Another option is to just leave a hydrometer floating after the krausen settles

What happened to the 2 Indian dudes from U of Iowa, Mupor tech, I think the brewball co. is named.
However, I was surprised to discover that bb's are several years older than that, and that there exists a simple method to make your own using non-toxic materials. Try searching for yeast immobilization. Good luck.

MuPor Technologies in Moscow, Idaho.

CvilleKevin said:

Another option is to just leave a hydrometer floating after the krausen settles

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This is what I ended up doing. Funny thing though, that damn thing always seems to be facing the wrong direction for me to see the SG scale. haha



I'm trying a crash at 1.020. It seems a little sweet, but I think that once I carb it up, that might give it a little "zing" to offset the sweetness. It's in the JK Scrumpy range right now.

CvilleKevin said:

I've only had a few Basque ciders, which were not all that dry, but the acidity made them seem more dry than they were. You might want to try a wheat yeast with no sulfites. The ones I've made have a tendency to go through a weird stage after 6-9 months, which often tastes somewhat like a Basque style to me.

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Interesting method - thanks for the tip. Most of the Basque ciders I've had struck me as very dry, although I suppose I could be wrong. You're right that the acidity (and typically high tannins) could be covering up more residual sweetness than I imagine. Anyway, if I have any luck at all, I'll be sure to post back.

This thread might be the most useful source of information on fermenting hard cider anywhere. Thank you for all the work, CvilleKevin and others. I'm only ~40 pages through and my head is spinning.

I'm new here and to brewing generally, but I'm getting into cider because I love it and I'm planning a hobby orchard on land I recently purchased. While my wife and I wait to plot out and plant trees and let them come to fruit-bearing age, I figured I better start learning the art of fermentation.

I love JK's Orchard Gate Gold Scrumpy, as many do. My goal, at least initially, is to attempt to clone this style without keeving (as such an advanced technique, I will come to it in due time).

My question: What yeast would you recommend for a long, cold/cool fermentation that I could stop at a moderately sweet SG?

I have a chest freezer that I will temp. control, and I am *not* over-eager to drink my cider - in other words, I'm happy to let it age. It seems like most of the ale and wheat yeasts ferment quickly while wine and champagne yeasts go all the way dry.

I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere.

Thanks so much for this wealth of information!

My goal, at least initially, is to attempt to clone this style without keeving (as such an advanced technique, I will come to it in due time).

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If you are fermenting juice from your own orchard then you dont need to worry about keeving. Just dont use any nitrogen fertilizers once the trees start bearing apples.

My question: What yeast would you recommend for a long, cold/cool fermentation that I could stop at a moderately sweet SG?

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I'd use wild yeast or a wheat yeast for a JK Scrumpy clone. For more info, see here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/anyone-sucessfully-done-jk-scrumpys-clone-125852/

I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere.

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No worries - dont forget you can use the search function to search a thread or the whole cider forum. For more info on JK Scrumpy, search on "Scrumpy" and "Koan"

Thanks for the quick response, Kevin! I'll give the search function a workout soon.

One further question. Cold crashing has been an integral part of almost all your experiments. If I choose to ferment at 50F, say, is cold crashing still warranted? Or could I simply rack off to a new carboy at the desired gravity and replace it in the 50F chest freezer?

Thanks again.

If I choose to ferment at 50F, say, is cold crashing still warranted? Or could I simply rack off to a new carboy at the desired gravity and replace it in the 50F chest freezer?

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If you have good control of your own juice, then you may be able to stop the fermentation via nitrogen reduction - which is what JKS and some of the French cider makers use. In that case you may be able to shut the ferment down by repeat racking, ie removing the old dead yeast hulls as a source of nutrients. I've had some success with stopping ferments just by racking, but cold crashing is more reliable, especially since I only have limited control over my juice.

CvilleKevin said:

If you have good control of your own juice, then you may be able to stop the fermentation via nitrogen reduction - which is what JKS and some of the French cider makers use. In that case you may be able to shut the ferment down by repeat racking, ie removing the old dead yeast hulls as a source of nutrients. I've had some success with stopping ferments just by racking, but cold crashing is more reliable, especially since I only have limited control over my juice.

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Looks like I have some trial and error in my future. Looking forward to it! Just want to say thanks a million for taking the time to answer questions like these for *years* in this thread.

Cheers to you.

Just wanted to share with everyone since this board has been such a huge help. On Oct 13th I pitched White Labs WLP380 into 3 gallons of Big B's Cold Pressed Cider that was UV pasteurized. It's the only non heat pasteurized juice I've been able to find locally. I pitched it with the juice at 65 degrees, 1.050 SG and added turbinado and corn sugar to bring it to 1.065 SG. I didn't check the Ph but the juice had a very nice flavor with tart finish.

I checked the SG last Sunday and was at 1.030 so let it go one more week. Today I checked and was at 1.013 so I am now cold crashing. I fermented at 61-63 degrees in a wine fridge retrofitted with a digital temp control and heat pad. The cider tastes amazing today and by far the best I've made up to this point. I would add that this combo required a blow off tube for the first 4-5 days then went to a standard three piece air lock. I topped off the head space with CO2 after pitching and each time I opened for testing.

I think what really helped this time was the temperature control during fermentation, topping off with CO2 and then giving the carboy a swirl a few times during ferment to avoid a stall.

The taste of the cider is a great balance of sweet but not too sweet, a nice apple flavor and very easy to drink.

Hope this helps for others looking to try their hand at some hard cider. I also liked that the yeast didn't go so quickly that it became too dry. Also, I didn't add any yeast nutrient and have no issues with rhino farts. I think a steady lower temp really helps.

Add me to the list of "great post you got here!"

Reading through I saw a 1/2011 post of yours you said "Tartaric blend to a test gallon, but it didn’t give me what I was looking for. It dropped the pH by a couple tenths and made the juice taste more tangy in the mouth, but didn’t add anything to the finish and it stomped on the spicy part of the flavor. The juice was already tangy enough in the mouth, it just didn’t have any tang in the finish. Not really much finish at all. Since the acid blend didn’t really help that, I didn’t use it. So lesson learned – acid blend can provide more tang in the mouth if the juice is missing that, but it wont give you a nice finish if the juice doesn’t already have one"

I have found that Crab apples give me that missing body, and allow the finish to "hang". I attribute it to higher tannins. I aim for around 15-20% crab in a 60% Stayman blend, (yep remaining 20-25% are the sweets)

Great Thread!

CidahMastah said:

I will chime in here because I make a lot of back sweetened cider that has a lot of success. I ferment dry then back sweeten with
a. double sweet fresh pressed cider (cider frozen then half thawed and poured off)

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I use this for batches that ferment too dry, its the best way to "turn back the clock" It's thick syrupy goodness.

Wow...very impressed with your dedication to ciders and cysers! I'm a complete newbie and started making small batches of cyser due to an abundance of crabapples in my neighborhood that nobody else is using. I currently have two batches racked and aging and one batch that I started 4 days ago. The first two are made with Champagne Yeast and the third is with Safale s-04. I had 4 cups of freshly extracted juice, 6 quarts of water, 1lb 12 oz white sugar, campden tablet, yeast nutrient, pectin enzyme and the extraction leftovers in a cheesecloth bag, in a primary fermentation bucket for 24 hours. Removed the bag and pitched the yeast. I'm letting the first two batches stay dry, priming and bottling. But for the third, I would like it to be a little sweeter. My OG for batch #3 is 1.053 adjusted. After 4 days, the SG is at 1.021 adjusted. So, my potential is for over 8% ABV, if it ferments out to the 0.990 range. I think a little sweetness might take a little of the edge off. I have no equipment for pasteurizing or cold crashing and have not yet attempted either. I prefer cyser, but only have bottling capability. I want to backsweeten, but read a lot about bottle bombs. I'm planning on using Munton's CarTabs (but wonder if floaters in my test bottles are coming from them?). I guess I'm looking to ferment out and then backsweeten with something non-fermentable. I am skeptical about Splenda, as I have heard people complain about weird aftertastes. I can rack into a couple of carboys and leave indefinitely, if a particular length of time is ideal. I would love to benefit from your experience and hear your thoughts/advice/comments. Thanks for indulging my ramble!!!
PS...I may try mixing with some regular apple varieties next year, but I wanted to see what the pure crabapples would do. So far, I like the aromas and flavors I'm getting. I'm also thinking about experimenting with a batch next year by including pumpkin pulp and cinnamon.

I have found that Crab apples give me that missing body, and allow the finish to "hang". I attribute it to higher tannins.

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I may try mixing with some regular apple varieties next year, but I wanted to see what the pure crabapples would do.

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Crabapples are great for picking up a mix. They do take a bit of patience to pick, but are often worth it. A few seasons ago, some friends were pressing apples and all we had were bushels of Empires and the juice was kinda mediocre until another friend showed up with two 5gal pails of crabapples. All it took was about 10 percent crabapples to make the juice really good. He also fermented a gallon of straight crabapple, which came out well. Now some of the commercial orchards around here are planting Hewes Crab which have high sugar, good tannins and big enough so they dont take all day to pick (golf ball size).

I guess I'm looking to ferment out and then backsweeten with something non-fermentable.... I would love to benefit from your experience and hear your thoughts/advice/comments. Thanks for indulging my ramble!!!

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While crabs are great in an apple mix, I'm not sure that they will be able to turn water into cider. I guess you will find out. If the trees still have apples, maybe you could employ some local kids to fill a couple 5gal buckets of crabs for you (something I've been thinking about myself) I'd suggest tasting both batches as the sg is dropping between say 1.015 and 1.000, and take note of what sg tasted the best to you. Then you can decide on the next batch if it is worthwhile to go to cold crashing or pasteurization to get that taste. Most of the apple flavor is in the last few points of apple sugar that ferment off. You can get back the sweetness with backsweetening, but you can really get back the apple flavor unless you use juice or some sort of apple based sweetener. If you are doing gallon batches, then cold crashing or pasteurization dont take much equipment

We did the 2nd pressing of the 2013 Season a few weeks ago, on October 24th. I just finished crashing the last of 8 carboys from that batch - The mix was Stayman, Gala and Winesap apples. I forget exactly how much we got - it was about 200 gallons between myself and friends. I dont think the juice was as good as the first pressing, but final results are coming out pretty well. The Staymans probably could have used another week or two on the trees. They usually have fairly high sugar this time of year but the overall mix was only 1.042, which was lower than last time. We only could get half a bin of Winesap, so the juice wasnt as tart in the finish as I like. The mix still had a good aroma and flavor - the Galas were carrying the mix. I filled 8 carboys and bumped 7 with 6oz/gal of turbinado/corn sugar mix and one with Orange Blossom Honey.

I sulfited 4 of the carboys, and because the juice wasnt real tart, I used 1/6tsp in 6gal instead of the usual 1/8tsp (which is half the recommended amount). I pitched those with Brupaks, 3056, 3068, and WLP041. No sulfite on the other four, which were pitched with Brupaks, 3056, US05, and Wy3333 (for the cyser).

Basement temps have been nice and cool for the past 3 weeks - between 56 and 64, and mostly around 60. This kept the ferment times nice and slow, so the cider was a lot easier to manage than the first batch. Since the juice wasnt real tart to begin with, I let them go a little lower than usual before crashing. So far, all of the crashes seem to be holding - none have started back up after the crash. At the time of crashing, they were only dropping about a point a day, which seems to make the crash a lot more reliable.

I've also got a carboy going with some juice that I helped some friends press by hand a couple weeks ago. I wasnt planning on fermenting any, but the juice came out so good that I had to take a carboy home. It was 10 bushels of random #2 apples and another 10 bushels that supposedly were #2 Winesaps, but they looked like they were A grade and had perfect ripeness. The mix came out great with decent sugar (1.054), lots of flavor and plenty tart in the finish. I bumped it with 4oz/gal of sugar, pitched a pack of Brupaks and its chugging along

Next Saturday, the orchard is going to do a special pressing for cider week, using old school cider apples. Ashmead's Kernel, Spitzenburg, Arkansas Black, Pippen and Winesap. Its going to be twice the price of what I'm generally paying for a commercial apple mix, but I'm still contemplating filling up all 8 of my primaries, just to see how the heritage mix compares to the commercial #2 apple mixes that we've been getting

Hmmm. Well, I may do the pasteurization thing. Seems pretty straightforward and I have a big pressure canner that I could fit several bottles in at a time. (Not for pressure, just for size!) Sounds like, if it's done properly, it doesn't really affect the flavor. The first two batches have cleared in carboys nicely and I just bottled the first batch today. FG is 0.990 and OG was 1.047. For batch #3, though, if I want to rack and age, I would have to backsweeten and pasteurize, I guess. But, if I don't mind skipping the clarifying and aging, I could prime and bottle when the SG is still above 1.000 and pasteurize after a few days?
I'm afraid the crabs are starting to rot...really would have to pick through the carefully! But I have picked a BUNCH this year and made crabapple butter and crabapple jelly, in addition to 3 batches of cider. That heritage cider blend sounds good. Maybe I'll put together a blend through the Farmer's Market available varieties for my next batch! My recipe calls for about 4-1/2 lbs of apples (or crabs) and adding 6 quarts of water. I don't have a press, but my juice extractor works fine for small batches. I think I'll take a breather and keep working on what I have going until after Thanksgiving!

mattmmille said:

Hmmm. Well, I may do the pasteurization thing. Seems pretty straightforward and I have a big pressure canner that I could fit several bottles in at a time. (Not for pressure, just for size!) Sounds like, if it's done properly, it doesn't really affect the flavor. The first two batches have cleared in carboys nicely and I just bottled the first batch today. FG is 0.990 and OG was 1.047. For batch #3, though, if I want to rack and age, I would have to backsweeten and pasteurize, I guess. But, if I don't mind skipping the clarifying and aging, I could prime and bottle when the SG is still above 1.000 and pasteurize after a few days?
I'm afraid the crabs are starting to rot...really would have to pick through the carefully! But I have picked a BUNCH this year and made crabapple butter and crabapple jelly, in addition to 3 batches of cider. That heritage cider blend sounds good. Maybe I'll put together a blend through the Farmer's Market available varieties for my next batch! My recipe calls for about 4-1/2 lbs of apples (or crabs) and adding 6 quarts of water. I don't have a press, but my juice extractor works fine for small batches. I think I'll take a breather and keep working on what I have going until after Thanksgiving!

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Well, I did pick a few more crabs and mixed with some Fuji apples. I created 2 buckets with about a gallon and a half in each. Mixed with regular sugar, but when I divided into two, I think I weakened it too much. I added some honey and brown sugar to boost the SG, but I think it's still weak in apple flavor. I've never done it before, but I may wind up adding some apple juice concentrate. As for batch #3, I did pasteurize it...it was already giving a little gush from my test bottle after only two days. The pasteurization process went pretty well...I did have one bottle break right as I was reaching 190F. Luckily, I had the lid partially covering the pot. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried bringing the bottles up to temp with the water, but add them when the 190F is attained. Anyway...bottled and aging. A little sediment , but that's okay. Test bottle was slightly sweet and very tasty! I think these are going to be very good!

Very informative! Lots of information to dig through, I spent the last 3 days reading the entire thing and it's a lot to absorb.

I just re-started using a 1g glass jug to experiment until I find the right mix. I started with 1g Musslemans and 1/5 packet EC-1118, which now that I have read this kinda screwed me!

I don't have a Hydrometer. That being said I am also finding that particular strain as mentioned by the OP is VERY hard to cold crash. I do not want a dry cider, I would like to retain some of the original sweetness, but I also want to bottle carb it as I do my own beer, however from all I am reading that is hard to do experimentally. Somewhat afraid of the pasteurization process with reading all about the explosions

Figuring at this point all I can do is wait for it to ferment out and back-sweeten a still cider until I either get a Hydro or I want to do a bit of experimentation using the "almost exhausted" method of carbonation. I may end up doing that this weekend, as I will be home to be able to check the bottles more regularly for over-pressure prior to pasteurization. Was hoping for a good start, should have read this before I started

Kevin, definitely looking forward to trying the S04 as I use that with my beer and always have some to spare, didn't even think of using that, and it seems to be better to be able to control like I would hope to.

I do not want a dry cider, I would like to retain some of the original sweetness, but I also want to bottle carb it as I do my own beer, however from all I am reading that is hard to do experimentally.

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All is not completely lost here. You can always do what I used to do when I was using EC1118 - which is to pick a day to drink it all with your friends, and then plan around that. EC1118 is hard to crash, but you can slow it down a bit by chilling if you need to. Go through the same steps as crashing, except it wont stop, so keep it in the fridge after the crash and after you've racked it off the sediment that drops in the crash. It will still ferment, but not as much. Then 2-3 days before you are planning to drink it, put it in a plastic screw top jug, keeping it in the fridge and it will carb up. Check the jug and relieve pressure if it seems like it might burst in the fridge. Yeah, its a PIA, but its only a gallon, and having a gallon of cider in your fridge thats about to explode is a good excuse to rally some friends

Somewhat afraid of the pasteurization process with reading all about the explosions

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I havent done bottle pasteurization before, but it doesnt look too difficult. Most of the explosion stories involve not following one of the steps correctly.

or I want to do a bit of experimentation using the "almost exhausted" method of carbonation.

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You cant use nitrogen reduction to stop EC1118. It needs very little nutrient and is often used to restart stuck fermentations.

Awesome thread! Thanks to CvilleKevin. I brewed hard cider for 5 years and I still learned quite a bit reading this. Anyone ever do this with store bought apple juice for those of us who don't have access to fresh juice?

Lalvin 1118-I just used this yeast for a cider-----tastes like dry white wine.
definitely using ale yeast next time.. thanks for the info!

I just recently rediscovered an old childhood friend...Murray"s Cider. Made in Roanoke, Virginia from a blend of whole, tree ripened apples. No sugar or preservatives added and it's pasteurized. And a bonus...comes in a 64 oz glass carboy! I haven't tried it yet, but a friend adds yeast and pops on an airlock...voila! Better than using a frozen concentrate that has apple juice in it from China and Argentina!

Anyone ever do this with store bought apple juice for those of us who don't have access to fresh juice?

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Depends on what you mean by 'store bought'. If you go to a produce or health food store, you can often find decent juice. That is actually how I found the orchard where I get juice now. The stuff they were selling in the local produce store was better that what I was getting from farmers markets and fruit stands. I bought their juice from the store for a year before I started making the trip to the orchard. OTOH, most of the stuff that I've tried to ferment from supermarkets has been utter crap.

I just recently rediscovered an old childhood friend...Murray"s Cider. Made in Roanoke, Virginia from a blend of whole, tree ripened apples.

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I havent tried Murrays, but it looks like it has potential. In theory, I dont see any reason why an apple processor couldnt put out a really good juice with supermarket distribution. It just doesnt seem like anyone is really trying. Its mostly just cheap apple drank. It would be nice to see someone put out a good frozen concentrate product that was aimed for the homebrew market, so folks who dont live in apple country have some better stuff to brew with.

Speaking of fresh juice - this past Saturday, Showalter's Orchard did a special pressing for cider week, using old school cider apples. The mix was Spitzenburg, Arkansas Black, Ashmead's Kernel and Calville Blanc. It was some great tasting juice. Good sugar at 1.058 - especially compared to everything else this season which has been low sugar - and nice and tart. This is the first juice this season that I didnt need to add sugar to in order to get the OG up.

I sulfited 4 of the carboys with 1/8tsp of k-meta in 6 gallons. I pitched those with Brupaks, 3056, 3068, and Nottingham. No sulfite on the other four, which were pitched with Brupaks, 3056, Nottingham, and S04.

This is the first time that I've fermented with old school cider apples, so it will be interesting to see how it compares to blends with more readily available commercial apples. The mix tasted better than anything I've tasted so far this season, although it seemed about comparable to the Stayman, Pippen, Winesap mixes that we were doing last season. This season it seems that the apples are just more watery that usually. I had some fresh pressed juice from another local orchard at a party about a week ago and it was just table juice so I wasnt expecting it to be great or anything, but it tasted like it had been watered down

I'm going to let the Nottingham and SO4 carboys go a little lower this time round, maybe to 1.006 or 1.004, as I'm thinking that this mix would be a good one for some semi-dry ciders.

The carboy that I pressed with friends in the beginning of November is crashing. It tastes great, but is not clearing at all. Still really murky. I'm not sure what is up with that.

For the past couple of years, I've been meaning to pull the useful bits of this thread together into a more coherent summary. Back in September, I started on a re-complilation of the yeasts I've been using, inspired in large part by some exchanges with TrentFysty (thanks Trent). Well, I didnt get very far, but figured I'd better put up what I have so far in the hopes that it will be useful to some folks. I'll try to get back and summarize the rest when things are a little less hectic. For now, here is a better summery of the properties of the better yeasts that I've found

Yeast – the best ones so far (for the juices I used) - Updated

Disclaimer - The best yeast is very much dependent on the style, juice and process. I generally like a pub style cider in the range of 1.004 to 1.012, that you can drink by the pint vs a drier style that you would have with food. I also like to keep some of the residual apple sugar for flavor rather than any sort of backsweetening, so I cold crash. These yeasts all work well for my purposes YMMV

Fermentation times for the yeasts depend a lot on ambient temperatures. I ferment in my basement, which isn’t temp controlled, but generally stays about least 10 degrees cooler than the rest of the house. I’ve divided the yeasts into three general categories.

Slow: 2 wks early season (62 – 66), 3wks midseason (58-64), 5+ wks late season (54-62)
Moderate: 8-9 days early season, 2+wks midseason, 3+ wks late season
Fast: 3-4 day early season, 6 days or less mid or late season


Brupaks Ale Yeast – This has been my go-to yeast for the past several years. It works great for a straight cider in the 1.008 to 1.014 range. Moderate fermentation time. It crashes easily and usually has a little more apple character than most of the other ale yeasts. It doesn’t work as well fermented dry or with honey. Generally no blowoff tube needed. For some reason, its not available in the US. I get it from the Hop and Grape, which is a UK store that does web sales and ships to US.

Wyeast 3056 – A close number 2. It can be used for a wider range of styles than the Brupaks – it can go up to 1.020 without being too sticky in the finish. At the high SG end, it has more of a juicy taste vs a sticky taste that some of the ale yeasts can get. It can also can get down to 1.002 or 1.004 for a nice dryish cider, without getting harsh or acidic. Not great for cysers. Moderate fermentation time. Usually a little slower than ale yeasts at warm temps, but a little faster at cold temps. Cold crashes easily, but usually takes a bit more time to clear fully after the crash than ale yeasts. It always needs a blowoff for the first week of fermentation.

Safale S-04 – Another very good ale yeast for cider. Moderate fermentation time, crashes easily and tastes great in the 1.002 to 1.012 range. It works great for cysers, which is mainly what I use it for these days. It does a nice job with wildflower and white sage honey, while keeping the apple flavor. No blowoff needed for straight juice. Generally best to use a blowoff tube for the first few days when making cysers. With regular juice, stopped at the 1.002 to 1.004 range, it has the mouthfeel and finish of a dry cider, but with more apple flavor and doesn’t require any aging to be drinkable right away. Its OK fermented completely dry, but usually takes at least a year or two of aging to mellow out.

Nottingham – This is the quintessential yeast for a pub style and a good one to start out with. Its easy to work with and easy to find at just about any homebrew store. Sadly, its no longer the great value, but the new packaging is nice. It starts fast, kicks up very little krausen, moderate fermentation time and cold crashes well with any juice. It typically clears a little faster than the other ale yeasts. It’s the only yeast I know of where the cold crash performance is part of the yeast spec. “Shows flocculation at completion of fermentation, and settling is promoted by cooling”. It does well in the 1.004 to 1.010 range. Not a good choice for fermenting dry, as it tends to strip out the flavor if it goes too far.

Gervins English Ale Yeast – As near as I can tell, this is the same yeast as Notty in the old style packaging for half the price. I’ve fermented them side by side and couldn’t tell the difference.

WLP041 – Good for early season ciders, it’s a slow fermenter and easy to crash. This is particularly nice early in the season when temps are warm and everything else is fermenting relatively quickly. For someone who doesn’t have a cool place for brewing, this one would be a good choice. It doesn’t do so well later in the season, as temps drop its more prone to stalling and wild yeast takeover. I’ve been using it mostly for sweeter styles, up to 1.025, but it does fine down to 1.010 and could probably go drier.

Wyeast 3068 – This is my girlfriend’s favorite yeast and a real crowd pleaser. Its good for a sweeter cider, in the 1.020 to 1.025 range and not very good below 1.012. At high gravities, it leaves a nice juicy taste, vs a lot of the ale yeasts which often taste overly sweet and sticky above 1.014 or so. Moderate to Slow fermentation time. Cold crashes easily. It always needs a blowoff. It works better with sufited juice – unsulfited tends to turn a little weird and get acidic over time.

Safale US-05 – This yeast is good when sugar or malt are added to the juice. Not so good with straight juice or honey. When turbinado/corn sugar mix is added, it gets a nice malty taste. I’m not a big fan of graffs, but of the half dozen yeasts I tried for graffs, the US05 came out the best. Moderate fermentation time, no blowoff needed. Works well for a raspberry cider, which is what I mostly use it for these days. Compared to other ale yeasts, it keeps the raspberry and apple flavor without getting to winey in the finish.

Saflager S-23 – This lager yeast makes for a cider that is lighter tasting and a little more complex compared to an ale yeast. My friends who are more wine drinkers and/or like a drier style like this one a lot. I usually try to stop it around 1.010. Moderate fermentation time, no blowoff needed. Because it’s a lager yeast, it’s a little tougher to crash, but it tastes good down to about 1.002, so its generally OK if the first crash doesn’t hold. I find that it works better mid to late season when ferment times are longer, which seems to make it easier to crash and stay stable. Sometimes is a little stinky, but not too bad.

Wyeast 3333 - Good for cysers using Orange Blossom Honey. Uses a lot of nutrient so a good one to try if you want to try using nitrogen reduction to stop fermentation

WLP005 - This is another good English Ale strain that does not seem to be as resistant to wild yeast as some of the others, but if you sulfite the juice first, it tastes great. I just started using this again this season and so far (two keg batches) I'd put it close to Brupaks for making a cider in the 1.008 to 1.012 range with a nice distinctive apple taste. It also ferments a little slower than most of the other ale yeasts, which is handy when doing multiple batches. Several years ago, I had good results with it before in test batches, but the first keg batch I did was taken over by wild yeast and fermented out before I could crash it. This season I sulfited the WLP005 batches first, and that seems to help a lot. Half a dose of sulfite, 24hrs before the pitch seems to keep the wild yeast at bay and no noticeable sulfite residual taste (to me anyway) after 2 months. Also, when sulfited, this yeast doesnt seem to get as stinky as some of the ale yeasts in presence of sulfites.

Yeasts I’ll probably try again

Wild yeast – I’ve done a lot of experiments with wild yeasts. Generally, they are more work and less predictable than ale or wheat yeast batches, but sometimes its worth it. Some of my best batches have been with wild yeast but also some of the worst. They generally do better with a long slow fermentation, with temps in the 50 to 55 range and taking several months to finish. If they get too warm, they have a tendancy to take off and ferment the juice down to nothing. Best for late season or temp control fermentation. You can also leave a plastic jug with a pop top (don’t use glass or screw top) in the fridge for 5-6 months and that usually works well, although it ties up fridge space for a long time. If you can ferment them cool and slow, the can sometimes be cold crashed. Above 60F they are impossible to crash

Danstar BRY97 - I did a couple of gallon batches with this at the end of the 2013 season and they came out well. Good apple and moderate to slow fermentation times - a little slower than most ale yeasts, not quite as slow as WLP005 and Wy3068, so a good one to use when making multiple batches and you want to space out the crash times. Does not like sulfites. The batch that I treated with k-meta, 24hrs before pitching yeast got very stinky. I plan on using this in a few keg batches next year and if these come out well, this yeast will probably go into regular rotation.


Yeasts that are good, but tend to get stinky

Wyeast 1010 - This one is really good for cysers, fruit cider, or just plain juice. It is a moderate fermenter, crashes relatively easily and has a real juicy, appley flavor that works best around 1.010 or so. It can get a little sticky tasting above that. The best scoring cider that I've ever had at a tasting was with this yeast and a pound of raspberries. The only problem is that its really stinky while fermenting, regardless of temps and sometimes after the crash as well. There were a few kegs that I had to scrub with CO2 a couple times to get the stank out, although after that, they tasted great.

Wyeast 2001 - Good for a semi dry cider with plain juice. My friends who like dry cider liked this one a lot. In the 1.006 to 1.008 range it tastes a drier than it really is, with hardly any perception of sweetness, but nice mouthfeel and a crisp finish. Similar in style to S23, maybe a little better tasting. Moderate fermenter, crashes fairly well. Consistently stank up the whole house and took multiple CO2 scrubbings to get the smell out of the keg. The end result was always pretty good, but a lot of work to get it drinkable

This is great information and looks like there's a couple more yeasts Ii want to try! I have a batch of cider that I just bottled at FG 1.002 and I used Safale s-04. It is a 2 gallon batch of about 60% crabapples and 40% Fuji apples to make a little over 5 cups of juice and I added 6 qts water, 4 cups of Murray's Cider and about 1lb 9oz white sugar, 1lb brown sugar and 4oz honey. The OG was 1.05. (Primary fermentation went for 4 days and carboy racked for 7 or 8 days before bottling) When I bottled, there were some small bubbles rising still and the color was a nice, clear golden. I racked to a bottling bucket and bottled. There is still a very thin layer of sediment on the bottom of the bottles. I'm hoping that I'm going to get bottle carbing without having primed them. I have a test flip-top to check in a couple of days to see what's going on. The rest are in 22oz bottles. I plan to pasteurize and bottle age if they carb. If they don't carb, I guess I can skip the pasteurizing. So, what I'm wondering is, is the small amount of sediment going to be a problem and how long should I bottle age for carbed vs. still? Interested in your opinions!

Kevin,

So we have started our yeast experiments with some quality local juice (1.044). Just checked two 2.5 gallon batches --one 3942 and one 3056. 3942 is tart/sour, but pretty tasty at 1.006. The 3056 is really nice...lots of apple jolly rancher coming through at 1.012. Wouldn't have thought to try this one if it weren't for your experiments....

Thanks again!

Stay tuned...

Hi all
Long time lurker first post.
First thanks for all your work Cville.

I'm on my 3 rd year making ciders. I picked up 5 carboys at cider days.
BTW. This is a must (ha ha) for anyone into cider. I will cross post re this event.
I have 5 gal. 2/3 baldwin 1/3 norther spy.
5 of 100% redfield. OG 1.03. It has beautiful crimson color,
I've had this fermented by West County, sparkling like pink champagne!
5 of 27% baldwin, 23% redfield, 10% spitzenberg, 10% g. delicious, 8% spencer, 8% spencer, 8% mutze? 4% empire. OG 1.049.
5 of lost notes sorry.
5 of 28% redfield, 17% fuji, 12% northern spy, 12% golden russet, 12% jonathan, 9% baldwin. OG 1.052.
These are made for making cider.
My basement stays low 50 all winter.
My life is simpler than yours cuz wife and I like it dry. I am using red star champagne yeasts. I have been adding campden tabs at 50 ppm. to be safe. May experiment without next season.
Pressed Nov 1. All OGs were before adding 5 lbs. of sugar. Added 5 lbs. honey to the first batch.
All at 1.000 now. I've racked into secondaries to clear and condition.
Usually 2 months then bottle carb. I get a sparkling clear cider.
It's Best after several months in the bottle.
The unknown batch was split into 3 gal carboys. One with 3 lbs wild blueberries and 1.5 liters of current juice. Started into ripping, I had to put on a blow by.
The other half war racked onto 5 oz of ginger, I know strong but I like me some ginger.. May try some mead after I bottle and have empty carbs.
Can I do mead at lower 50's?

Good Morning
I was looking at your attached photo am I correct are you using the plastic cider jugs ?If so that will save me aton . Oh wait I press my own cider,still I like your idea.

wildlife1 said:

Good Morning
I was looking at your attached photo am I correct are you using the plastic cider jugs ?If so that will save me aton . Oh wait I press my own cider,still I like your idea.

Click to expand...

I'm planning on doing a cider using the plastic gallon container. I'll sanitize the neck, pour some into a glass, toss in my yeast & nutrient, then put an airlock on the thing and enjoy my glass of juice I poured off. It'll take maybe 5 minutes. Fastest. Brewday. EVER.

CvilleKevin said:

Those are the plastic jugs that the cider press uses, which are about the same thickness as milk jugs. They are plenty strong for fermenting and are very handy for making experimental batches because all you need to do is pour off a little juice, add k-meta, sugar and yeast (or whatever else you want to add), slap on a fermentation lock and you are good to go.

BTW - I have now cold crashed all but 4 of the last round of experimental batches. For the juice I got from the cider press, the batches without the k-meta taste much better than those with. They could be consumed right away (and probably will be this weekend). They taste just like the pasteurized juice, (which I didnt sulfite) so I am certain it is the k-meta that makes the juice sour after fermentation.

On the other hand, I have a few gallons that I got from a cider pressing party. That juice was not as tart and for those gallons the ones with k-meta taste better. Having a little bite helps and it seems to have a little more body as well.

Reading some more on the web about k-meta and pH, I believe the recommended dose of 1/4 tsp for 5 gallons before fermentation is meant for wine, which usually has a higher pH than cider. As pH drops, recommended dose of k-meta also drops.

When I get new juice I plan to get another 18 single gallons and experiment around with different k-meta doses before and after fermentation. I'll post results when I get some preliminary results, which should be in about a month.

If any of you are planning on fermenting unpasteurized juice and it is already nice and tart, I would recommend cutting the k-meta back to at least half the recommended dose if you want to drink it sooner. If the raw juice doesnt have much bite then stick with the recommended dose.

Click to expand...

I really recommend using malic acid to add tartness I think you should give it a try just on one batch please! Malic acid is actually derived from Apples. It is apples natural tart flavor and even adds a more distinct apple flavor.. I also prefer not using and sulfites/preservitives in any of my brews