Ignorant Drinkers

OK so I bartend at an Irish Pub that is a bit of an extention for a brew pub. We serve 6 House beers (light ale, Pale Ale, Nitrogen Red, Porter, Stout, Irish Lager) and one seasonal. We also carry common commercial beers as well as some better bottle beers (Schnider Wisse, Aventinus, Frauch) So we are fairly diverse. Now far be it from me to tell someone what beer will taste good to them, but I am constantly battleing misconseptions about craft brews. To me this is ignorance, but changing peoples minds about the quality of fresh brewed craft beers is a challange I face every day.

I love to taste new a different beers whereever I go. And I know I am preaching to the choir, but you all must have faced this problem when offering your beer to friends. How do you deal with it? What do you talk about?

I am very proud of our beers and love to talk about them, and often if they taste our beer with an open mind, they enjoy it. But too often, they won't even try.

Side note: Durring a busy evening, and dealing with a unruly patron, they wanted something we make that was like a Mic Ultra, so I offered to pour them a half draft and fill the rest with water.

mblakely said:

Side note: Durring a busy evening, and dealing with a unruly patron, they wanted something we make that was like a Mic Ultra, so I offered to pour them a half draft and fill the rest with water.

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Bwahahaha! Did that work? God, so funny...so sad...

Tell them if they can't handle real beer then they need to go down the road to the next BMC bar. If someone is unable to be open to trying new things then they should stick to what they know and not even enter a brew pub, or leave with out a fuss if they don't know what they are getting into. It's like my wife she hates IPA's but she try's everyone that I make with an open mind, thinking that maybe this one might be the one that changes her mind.

Cheers

Mark at GVB recommends 1/3 Golden, 1/3 Wheat, 1/3 soda water. The soda water has to go in first or you get a monster head.

Since all of my friends here are homebrewers, no problem! My neighbors won't touch the stuff.

The following is general advice and doesn't apply to the submitter or any specific person on these boards.


*shrug*

I think the only thing to do is offer to share your knowledge but, if declined, don't make yourself unapproachable by treating their choice with disdain.

In my experience the biggest problem that people who are passionate about something (and want others to be passionate about) is that they react to someone declining to follow their lead poorly--- they try and make them feel stupid for not appreciating the same things in the same ways. This is the worst way to try and change people's minds.

Not only does it make it less likely that they'll go to you for information on what 'good beer' is like but they are more likely to think that all 'craft brew people' are the same kind of person who will treat them poorly for not following their lead.

The best way to change people's minds is be friendly and approachable. Don't bag on folks who don't make the choices you do. When they are interested in hearing what you have to say and exploring something new they'll ask someone who was friendly and accomodating, not judgemental and lecturing.

This applies to so much more than beer--- politics, sex, wine, food, sports, video games, computers, operating systems.... there are enough people out there being jerks and polarizing people away from their passions. Don't be that guy too.

Took some of my scottish ale to a party last weekend and everyone was afraid to try it. Then a guy manned up and I poured him a glass and he said, "Wow Rick, this is really good. I thought I was going to have to tell you it was good and go around the corner and pour it out." I dunno how to take it either.

I know in my BMC days I didn't want to take the chance of spending good money on something I didn't like so I just went with what I knew. What finally turned me around was the samplers at a brewpub. On that note, does your pub allow you to pour samples? If you could give them a try before they spent their money I bet a lot more would come around.

I'm with kornkob. People should drink what they like. Do your best to open their eyes to the possibilities, but beyond that it's really none of your business. Maybe they've tried craft brews and didn't like them, maybe they just don't want to.

The Goose Island brewpub in Chicago has bottles of Bud Light available (and probably some other BMCs). Not on the menu, not on the beer board...but if you ask, you can have one. To me, that's the right approach.

For every person you look down your nose at for wanting a Bud Light, there's someone (not me) looking down their nose at your "Irish" pub for serving a light ale, or a pale ale...or even an Irish Lager, which is a late 20th-century invention...

fifelee said:

I know in my BMC days I didn't want to take the chance of spending good money on something I didn't like so I just went with what I knew. What finally turned me around was the samplers at a brewpub. On that note, does your pub allow you to pour samples? If you could give them a try before they spent their money I bet a lot more would come around.

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This is a philosophy I don't understand. Why waste your money experiencing something you are already familiar with? Why not try something new with that money?
I guess I'm a little different than most people in that I like just about anything, so worst case if I try something new it maybe just OK. But I do it because it may be great, or even one of the best beers/meals/etc I have ever had. I also do not drink to get a buzz. I think I've only done that a few times in my life. I just don't find it fun. So I have never tried to optimize my alcohol by buying cheaper drinks.

Craig

CBBaron said:

This is a philosophy I don't understand. Why waste your money experiencing something you are already familiar with? Why not try something new with that money?

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Same for food. I almost always try something different on the menu when I eat out. I know people who go to the same resturants all the time and then always order the same item. As they say, variety is the spice of life.

Bike N Brew said:

I'm with kornkob. People should drink what they like. Do your best to open their eyes to the possibilities, but beyond that it's really none of your business. Maybe they've tried craft brews and didn't like them, maybe they just don't want to.

The Goose Island brewpub in Chicago has bottles of Bud Light available (and probably some other BMCs). Not on the menu, not on the beer board...but if you ask, you can have one. To me, that's the right approach.

For every person you look down your nose at for wanting a Bud Light, there's someone (not me) looking down their nose at your "Irish" pub for serving a light ale, or a pale ale...or even an Irish Lager, which is a late 20th-century invention...

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Amen.

Say it isn't so, us craft brew people are turn into arch our enemy ... wine snobs. Who are we to say that guy drink a Bud isn't enjoying his piss water. To be honest I like a BMC every once in awhile. If we just have an appreciation for all beer, then we are much more approachable which makes it much easier to get people to try new things.

Korncob is right on.

Let people believe what they want to believe; you'll only elicit their disdain for any condescending attitude you show. Ignorance is so often arrogant. Someday, maybe they will catch on and if they don't, F*ck 'em.

I get a real kick trying to tell people about sushi and sashimi or just Japanese habachi-style dinners at all. They act like your eating raw, warm large mouth bass or something, and can't imagine it's THEM that has a problem understanding how good it is with beer.

Small minds...can only hold....so much...let it go....some people are just born obstinate.

CBBaron said:

This is a philosophy I don't understand. Why waste your money experiencing something you are already familiar with? Why not try something new with that money?

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I agree with what you are saying now, but there was a time when craft brew was very foreign. Imagine the guy who has had a long day at work and just need a beer to relax, but he decides to try something new and orders a lambic. He very well could be turned off of craft brew for a long time. If he could sample a few different brews he will defiantly find something he likes.

Familiarity and repeated exposure will foster acceptance.

Keep on trying. I’m old enough to remember a few other not-ready-to-be-accepted ideas:
Salsa
Iced Coffee
Multi-Grain (I can taste the nuts in this stuff) bread
Curry Powder
Cilantro

Offering a craft brew is like giving a presentation to an audience:
Tell them what they’re about to experience
Let them experience
Tell them what they just experienced

I find that preempting the beer with its “story” and heritage helps in their acceptance.

BierMuncher said:

Familiarity and repeated exposure will foster acceptance.

Keep on trying. I’m old enough to remember a few other not-ready-to-be-accepted ideas:
Salsa
Iced Coffee
Multi-Grain (I can taste the nuts in this stuff) bread
Curry Powder
Cilantro

Offering a craft brew is like giving a presentation to an audience:
Tell them what they’re about to experience
Let them experience
Tell them what they just experienced

I find that preempting the beer with its “story” and heritage helps in their acceptance.

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A most excellent point you made!!

I made a hard cider a few weeks ago and poured a glass for my Dad. He tastes it, wrinkles his nose, and says, "I don't like that at all..." I tell him, "Well, it's not a beer, it's a hard cider. Can you taste the apples?" And he says, "Hey! That's actually pretty tasty!"

I suspect most people aren't going to give you the second chance to tell them what they are drinking. You'd better let them know BEFORE they take the first sip. Say something like...

"This is an IPA. The style was invented back in a time before steam, when beer was carried by large boats harnessing the power of the wind with gargantuan sails. The journey could take months. Men would die. The beer would be spoiled. The only way to keep the beer fresh and tasty was to load it with hops, which acted as a natural preservative. Now, much like our soldiers came home from WWII with a taste for Coca Cola, the British soldiers came home from India with a taste for India Pale Ales- highly hopped beers. This is the kind of beer they loved...."

Now, if push came to shove, I couldn't prove half the things that I said there, but it's a good story and it's more or less true. It tells a good story. And I think most drinkers would be hard pressed not to appreciate an IPA after hearing it...

I normally have 6 beers on tap and when somebody new comes over the first thing they ask is either "whats good" or "what would I like". Both of those questions can't be answered because not everyone likes all beer.

I usually give them the taste test and have them sample each one and explain the characters of each style. Sometimes they don't like the beer after the first taste but after telling them what it is they are tasting they change thier mind and that beer becomes thier favorite.

I love converting BMC drinkers...

I've never had someone turn down my homebrews. Here is about how all the conversations go:

Me, "You drink Beer?"
Them, "Yeah"
Me, "Want some free Beer?"
Them, "Hell yeah!"

Boom they get stuck with some awesome hand crafted brew!

CBBaron said:

...I also do not drink to get a buzz. I think I've only done that a few times in my life. I just don't find it fun. So I have never tried to optimize my alcohol by buying cheaper drinks.

Craig

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Interesting. I'm unable to find other reasons to drink beer other than to get a buzz. As far as optimizing my alcohol by buying cheaper drinks...you have summed up my four years of college in a remarkably short sentence.

mummasan said:

Interesting. I'm unable to find other reasons to drink beer other than to get a buzz. As far as optimizing my alcohol by buying cheaper drinks...you have summed up my four years of college in a remarkably short sentence.

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I drink beer for two reasons. One I really enjoy the flavor. I find good beer to be very interesting and flavorful and often times refreshing. Two, it helps to relax and mellow out after a long day. This effect happens with somewhat less alcohol than required for a buzz. I'm not saying I don't occasionally get buzzed but on most occasions I drink beer a buzz is detrimental to my enjoyment. A party or other social event is a different story, but even then I do not find getting drunk fun.

Craig

mummasan said:

Interesting. I'm unable to find other reasons to drink beer other than to get a buzz. As far as optimizing my alcohol by buying cheaper drinks...you have summed up my four years of college in a remarkably short sentence.

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Why waste your time drinking beer then. Everclear is a way more efficient road to your goal.

mblakely said:

To me this is ignorance, but changing peoples minds about the quality of fresh brewed craft beers is a challange I face every day.

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Nobody said it wasn't an uphill battle. There are some that are never going to come to the table, too scared to try something new. That's just the way they are and it's a loss for them, not you. Then there are some that need some coaxing in the right conditions. My wife's family drinks mostly Bud Light but they're fans of my Kolsch (hey, it's still craft beer and has no freakin' rice syrup ) and I've even managed to turn my brother-in-law onto BARLEYWINE. Yes, 99% of the time he drinks Bud Light but if I bring barleywine into the house, he'll put a glass down for a pour in an instant.

Michigan's a great beer state so you have some tools at your disposal and some "backup" as well, with all the breweries doing well there.

OTOH, I've been to plenty bars and brewpubs with waitstaff and bartenders that had no idea whatsoever about what they were serving, even telling the customers "it's dark, you won't like it". So you have that to contend with too.

To each his own. If they're too much of a sissy to try it, hey, more for me.

CBBaron said:

I drink beer for two reasons. One I really enjoy the flavor. I find good beer to be very interesting and flavorful and often times refreshing. Two, it helps to relax and mellow out after a long day. This effect happens with somewhat less alcohol than required for a buzz. I'm not saying I don't occasionally get buzzed but on most occasions I drink beer a buzz is detrimental to my enjoyment. A party or other social event is a different story, but even then I do not find getting drunk fun.

Craig

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Craig,
I find that your assesment of the reason you drink beer is spot on with why I do. While I enjoy a good buzz now and then cracking a bottle of my homebrew after a long day at work just kind of signals my time away from the office. (well, ok, after my bike ride home ) I enjoy the taste of different beers and getting a buzz isn't what it's all about. I've gone to a few parties and consumed all the time I was there and didn't get overly lit but enjoyed the hefe's and company.

CBBaron said:

I drink beer for two reasons. One I really enjoy the flavor. I find good beer to be very interesting and flavorful and often times refreshing. Two, it helps to relax and mellow out after a long day. This effect happens with somewhat less alcohol than required for a buzz. I'm not saying I don't occasionally get buzzed but on most occasions I drink beer a buzz is detrimental to my enjoyment. A party or other social event is a different story, but even then I do not find getting drunk fun.

Craig

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Someday they'll invent the alcohol reversing pill.

Couple of cold ones on a Saturday afternoon with a sandwich...that nice warm feeling of relaxation...then...pop two of these magic pills and WHAM....all traces of alcohol eliminated from the body by one gigantic B E L C H...

...and...repeat as desired...

Someone is going to make a billion dollars.

I agree with fifelee the prices most pubs charge is outragous considering what the beer cost to make. If gas stations marked up gas like pubs do beer we'd be paying $20 a gal. If your pub offers free samples then that's a different matter.

That being said the average IQ is 100 that means 1/2 of the people have an IQ of less than 100. Couple low intellect with stubborness and you are fighting an uphill battle trying to convince anyone of anything.

Just like some people have better hearing than others, some have better eyesight than others, some people have more sensitive sense taste as well.

You most likely would not expect a 90 year old to think Tool is the greatest band ever or a 18 year old to think Benny Goodman rocks. People have different tastes.

I find that when someone refers to a certain kind of beer as "funky beer" then there is little point in trying to change their minds. I just smile and let them enjoy their BMC. In reality I want to ask them if they know what's actually in their beer. Then I would bring up the hotdog and steak analogy...the BMC is a hotdog with fillers and my "funky" beer is a steak.

Alas, I just smile and enjoy my brew.

That line of "what's in your beer" could lend itself to a pretty funny ad campaign for an all malt brew. Imagine seeing patrons in a bar. One guy has a corn cob sticking out of his glass. Another guy pours rice into his glass from his bottle...then you see his neighbor help himself with chopsticks.

Man I'm bored today...mind wandering in all directions.

I dont know about you guys, but I hated beer the first time I tried it. Infact, it took a long time for me to develop the taste for beer that I have now, and there are still beers that I can't stomach drinking. English porters, most amber ales, dunkleweizens, belgian dubbels, etc. I'm sure you guys would look at me funny for dumping some of the beers I have. Anyway, it takes time for lots of people, and you gotta sympathise.

Also, I love beer, but I love the relaxation that a few beers provides. I've got a really high tolerance right now, and it takes a LOT to get me 'drunk', but I do like a good buzz now and then, and I don't see what the problem is with that. I try to drink only on weekends, but heck, friday night, hard NOT to get 5-6 beers in me.

Bobby_M said:

Why waste your time drinking beer then. Everclear is a way more efficient road to your goal.

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Everclear...mmm...memories of high school are slowly surfacing...

I'll have a whiskey on the rocks now and then...sometimes SWMBO will mix up a mojito which is quiet tastey

But I like beer, which is why I brew it myself. I have simply have come to the conclusion that l will not deliberately make anything less than a 5% ABV beer.

kornkob said:

The following is general advice and doesn't apply to the submitter or any specific person on these boards.


*shrug*

I think the only thing to do is offer to share your knowledge but, if declined, don't make yourself unapproachable by treating their choice with disdain.

In my experience the biggest problem that people who are passionate about something (and want others to be passionate about) is that they react to someone declining to follow their lead poorly--- they try and make them feel stupid for not appreciating the same things in the same ways. This is the worst way to try and change people's minds.

Not only does it make it less likely that they'll go to you for information on what 'good beer' is like but they are more likely to think that all 'craft brew people' are the same kind of person who will treat them poorly for not following their lead.

The best way to change people's minds is be friendly and approachable. Don't bag on folks who don't make the choices you do. When they are interested in hearing what you have to say and exploring something new they'll ask someone who was friendly and accomodating, not judgemental and lecturing.

This applies to so much more than beer--- politics, sex, wine, food, sports, video games, computers, operating systems.... there are enough people out there being jerks and polarizing people away from their passions. Don't be that guy too.

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I like to go to fancy wine bars and order the house red. When they turn their nose up, I say faghettaboutit--just give me a beer.

mummasan said:

I have simply have come to the conclusion that l will not deliberately make anything less than a 5% ABV beer.

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I find myself in that boat as well - I'm formulating my recipes based on a particular style and a mid 5's ABV.

I think most neophites to craftbeer will find a moderate pale ale to their liking. They know its fresh beer and not BMC so they should expect something slightly different. Once they get used to that they could venture out to different stuff. Also having a buzz off three pales can get you to try a hefe or brown ale.

In fact a brown ale is pretty mellow. A blind BMC drinker might not have an issue with it because the are pretty descent session beers. Some of the craft beers get dinged because they don't fit that session flavor they expect from a beer.

I would wouldn't push the non-session craft beers to BMC drinkers right out of the gate.

Another thing is pair the beer with the food. That can win people over too. My FIL who is not a beer drinker ordered a dunkelweizen to go with smoked pork & roast beef combo and he liked it quite a bit.

Rook said:

I dont know about you guys, but I hated beer the first time I tried it. Infact, it took a long time for me to develop the taste for beer that I have now, and there are still beers that I can't stomach drinking. English porters, most amber ales, dunkleweizens, belgian dubbels, etc. I'm sure you guys would look at me funny for dumping some of the beers I have. Anyway, it takes time for lots of people, and you gotta sympathise.

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My first times drinking beer were at parties in college. I agree I didn't like Keystone Light (popular keg beer at parties in this college town) when I first tried it, and there are some people, my roommate included, who never got past this. Granted, they are few in far between when you get to the level of college I'm at (i.e. they adapted to the ever-presence of cheap beer and started drinking it). The people I do know that don't like beer are all the type that have never drank much, so it seems they tend towards more neutral drinks or soda-y drinks when they do drink. These people can rarely be turned on to beer, and I've given up on them.

When you do run across people who only drink BMC beer, then offer them something like it, with more flavor. Generally this means a lager. I know I've had the best comments from people who drink mostly Bud Light and Miller Lite, out of a pilsner that I didn't even like that much (too dark, being from LME, along with too much darker crystal malt in the specialty grain bill). Also, an American wheat is always a hit with almost everyone. I've had a few chances to explain beer styles and flavors to people before and if they are willing to listen I order a couple different pints for the table, and let people try them and explain the differences. I guess like wine tastings, but with more variety. In my mind there is a lot more variety in beer styles, but then I've never been able to grasp the difference between a $30 merlot and a $5 one.

kornkob said:

This applies to so much more than beer--- politics, sex, wine, food, sports, video games, computers, operating systems.... there are enough people out there being jerks and polarizing people away from their passions. Don't be that guy too.

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This sounds exactly like a polygamist hating, boones farm drinking, talking **** on Barry Bonds, Joust playing, Mac using vegan liberal would say. :rockin:

For the record I agree 100% with what you said, just had to make my obligatory drunk post.

I had one of my best friends wife tell me last night she wouldn't drink my beer because it has more sugar and carbs than BMC. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

are u callin ur wife a horse?

DeathBrewer said:

are u callin ur wife a horse?

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No. He's calling his best friends wife a horse.

RickWG said:

Craig,
I find that your assesment of the reason you drink beer is spot on with why I do. While I enjoy a good buzz now and then cracking a bottle of my homebrew after a long day at work just kind of signals my time away from the office. (well, ok, after my bike ride home ) I enjoy the taste of different beers and getting a buzz isn't what it's all about. I've gone to a few parties and consumed all the time I was there and didn't get overly lit but enjoyed the hefe's and company.

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Hey a fellow bike and brewer. Its always nice to enjoy a good beer after I have cooled off and rehydrated after my ride home.

Craig

Rook said:

I dont know about you guys, but I hated beer the first time I tried it. Infact, it took a long time for me to develop the taste for beer that I have now, and there are still beers that I can't stomach drinking. English porters, most amber ales, dunkleweizens, belgian dubbels, etc. I'm sure you guys would look at me funny for dumping some of the beers I have. Anyway, it takes time for lots of people, and you gotta sympathise.

Also, I love beer, but I love the relaxation that a few beers provides. I've got a really high tolerance right now, and it takes a LOT to get me 'drunk', but I do like a good buzz now and then, and I don't see what the problem is with that. I try to drink only on weekends, but heck, friday night, hard NOT to get 5-6 beers in me.

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I also hated beer the first time I tried it, and I still hate the BMC style of beer which was all I knew until I finished college. I didn't realize I liked beer until I got to try some good craft brews, especially stouts, and porters. Since then I've really come to appreciate good IPAs, Belgian strong ales and just about every other kind of full flavored beer. Though I will drink them I'm still not a fan of Blondes, Pilsners, or Kolshes.
Instead of drinking alot one or two days a week, I enjoy a beer nearly every day and sometimes 2 on the weekend. Have to watch those RIS and Belgian Stong Ales though

Craig

I worked in the bar industry for 20 years.

Do yourself a favor...............pour what they ask for, take their money and move on. If they want to know about your house brews, they will ask. If they don't, they aint worth talking too.

Love the part about the half draft and water!! Classic.

mblakely said:

OK so I bartend at an Irish Pub that is a bit of an extention for a brew pub. We serve 6 House beers (light ale, Pale Ale, Nitrogen Red, Porter, Stout, Irish Lager) and one seasonal. We also carry common commercial beers as well as some better bottle beers (Schnider Wisse, Aventinus, Frauch) So we are fairly diverse. Now far be it from me to tell someone what beer will taste good to them, but I am constantly battleing misconseptions about craft brews. To me this is ignorance, but changing peoples minds about the quality of fresh brewed craft beers is a challange I face every day.

I love to taste new a different beers whereever I go. And I know I am preaching to the choir, but you all must have faced this problem when offering your beer to friends. How do you deal with it? What do you talk about?

I am very proud of our beers and love to talk about them, and often if they taste our beer with an open mind, they enjoy it. But too often, they won't even try.

Side note: Durring a busy evening, and dealing with a unruly patron, they wanted something we make that was like a Mic Ultra, so I offered to pour them a half draft and fill the rest with water.

Click to expand...

I remember this brew pub I used to work at, and what they did is position the Microbrewed beer. you can do this for a discounted cost or for free, management would have to be a part of this. We had a Tray that you could request and had sample glasses of the different types of beer that you are selling. While you are with the customer, While the customer is tasting a certain beer, you or the waitress explain what is briefly in the beer and why it tastes how it does, explain the body, aroma, flavours to look for while tasting.

I know this method does work but you can't win them all. They will just go to the ones that they like. "THis does not taste like beer at all. Give me a Bud light, now that is a real beer" Just had to throw that in there

HarvInSTL said:

This sounds exactly like a polygamist hating, boones farm drinking, talking **** on Barry Bonds, Joust playing, Mac using vegan liberal would say. :rockin:

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For the record, I ....

• am a monogomous polygamist (My partner doesn't wanna share)
• prefer Mad Dog 20/20 to boones farm
• didn't know that there was still a professional baseball league
• haven't played Joust in years (but that was a cool game that ate a lotta quarters)
• don't own a mac but do use a PC mod that turns my task bar into one like the one they have in OSX
• think vegetarians are a food source
• am typically socially liberal and fiscally/internationally conservative

HarvInSTL said:

For the record I agree 100% with what you said, just had to make my obligatory drunk post.

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Cheers!

I am more than willing to sell anybody (within legal limits) any beer I have. That being said, I am also trying to sell the beer we make. The frustrating part is when I sugest and offer a sample of one of our beers. I have had the guest turn their nose up at my offer and tell me that "craft beer sucks". I am left a bit dumbfounded. By no means do I think that I will find a match for all drinkers, but give it a try. That is all I am asking. I know that sometimes a commercial beer goes down a bit easier sometimes, and I have drank my fair share of bud.

I just started this thread to voice a bit of frustration. Because I am passionate about my job and Beer. I would love to share that passion, but I will not push it on someone who does not want to listen. But trust the person who is serving you, and listen to their sugestions. Most of us find great new beers by listening to the advice of the local beer store clerk.

There are many other things about bartending that is frustrating, but those are forgotten by the end of the night. Ignorance just grinds me.