100% brett cider

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See this is our point of difference. You think you know what is going on in the cider when you pitch brett (without any evidence except assertions you make). I think that the percentage of brett in the fermenting cider could be anything from zero to 100, probably closer to zero (but I don't know that). I don't say what will happen except I doubt that brett will have a strong part of the fermentation, because no-one has ever documented this as far as I am aware. (and experiments with sterile beer wort don't count). So I will leave you to your "experiment".

Pretty sure Crispin has done an all Brett Cider. They seem to know a thing or 2 about cider.
 
Marquez said:
Nice active ferment!

You should have no problem removing the airlock and replacing with foil.

When the activity slows, replace the airlock.

As long as there is positive pressure, you'll won't have any problems with contamination.

But be sure to get the airlock back on when the furious activity slows.

Cool. 100 % Brett (pitched in primary) does work after all. Also thanks for responding.
 
Pretty sure Crispin has done an all Brett Cider. They seem to know a thing or 2 about cider.

Doesn't invalidate what greg is saying though, just because Crispin pitched 100% Brett doesn't mean that's what was doing the brunt of the fermentation.

According to Scott labs, yeasts are very competitive, and even a slight dominant advantage of one strain over another can tip the scales and result in 100% of the more vigorous strain after 48 hrs. Brett is well known to be a comparatively weak strain, which often goes to work as a spoiler after primary fermentation is complete and no other yeasts are active.

LF, do you have access to a good microscope so you can track the populations throughout the fermentation and see what is dominant at different stages? That would settle this definitively.

Regardless of whether the fermenations are 100% Brett or not, they will certainly be unique!
 
I don't have a microscope. I still would argue that wild (untrained) yeast at such a low count will not out-compete a pitched culture of commercial Brett.
 
image-243734262.jpg

Brett goo. Pretty cool. It's like the stuff.
 
I'd suggest doing at least one variation with oenococcus in place of the LAB. I've had very pleasant results from Wyeast 3068 and oenococcus fermented cider, and a shorter time frame than you would expect with pedio involved.
Curious to hear how these turn out, as I love brett beers and basque ciders.

Failing

"It works in practice, but does it work in theory?"
 
Bobbybob said:
gregbathurst is polite in all other posts I have read.

Remember guys, we are all just people and sometimes we have good days and sometimes we have bad days and sometimes we just have differences of opinion or things that get under our skin.
I am the first one to admit that I can be a hothead or sometimes misunderstand, And I'm sure there are a few others like me out there, But I'm sure if we sat down together and all had a beer we would be great friends. My girlfriend has been wonderful in my life because she's been teaching me patience and understanding more than I ever could have on my own.

She also says to me "you don't have enough information to judge", Maybe someone just lost a pet or loved one or friend, Had a really bad day at work or a problem with the spouse...

Just keep that in mind and try not to be too hard on each other.

57CC31FA-E724-408F-BD48-6FB9D26ED779-860-000000EEFDD52BAE_zpsb2ebacab.jpg
 
I'm no scientist by any means. But wouldn't a control batch from the same pressings illustrate the progress of the brett in a side by side comparison?

So one with natural yeasts from the skins and one with brett. I would think you might get better data from the brett batch if you have a comparison of a wild strain in the other.
 
I'm thinking about doing a panel of 100% brett fermented ciders. A few single strains, a few multiple strains, and a few of both with lacto/pedio added.

Here is the list of fermentations I came up with:
1.) 100% Brett B
2.) 100% Brett C
3.) 100% Brett L
4.) 100% Brett Drie
5.) Brett B,C,L
6.) 100% Brett B & LAB
7.) 100% Brett C & LAB
8.) 100% Brett L & LAB
9.) 100% Brett Drie & LAB
10.)Brett B,C,L & LAB

("LAB" is Lactic Acid Bacteria, which is the lacto/pedio)

Good luck. Be sure to post you results comparing the flavors produced by the different yeasts. Not sure you really need to do the Lactic Acid Bacteria. The Brett will have used up all the sugars, leaving very little for them. Cider is already acidic.

I've done a number of all-brett ciders. Brett and Belgian yeasts are my favorites for fermenting ciders. I think these yeasts provide more flavor to the cider than regular yeasts.

Using just Brett, will not give you the characteristic rustic brett flavors, but will provide a more fruity flavor.

When used as the primary yeast, Brett works similar to Sacc, and will be done in about the same time (a couple of weeks). I prefer to leave my ciders at least 6 months before bottling.

Your Brett B cider that was slow to start. You either pitched low and it took a while to buil;d up its population (Brett really needs a decent sized pitch), or it was too cold. Brett prefers to ferment warm; fermenting in the 80s is not a problem. I'm not sure what the lower temp limit is for the yeast.
 
Calder said:
Good luck. Be sure to post you results comparing the flavors produced by the different yeasts. Not sure you really need to do the Lactic Acid Bacteria. The Brett will have used up all the sugars, leaving very little for them. Cider is already acidic.

I've done a number of all-brett ciders. Brett and Belgian yeasts are my favorites for fermenting ciders. I think these yeasts provide more flavor to the cider than regular yeasts.

Using just Brett, will not give you the characteristic rustic brett flavors, but will provide a more fruity flavor.

When used as the primary yeast, Brett works similar to Sacc, and will be done in about the same time (a couple of weeks). I prefer to leave my ciders at least 6 months before bottling.

Your Brett B cider that was slow to start. You either pitched low and it took a while to buil;d up its population (Brett really needs a decent sized pitch), or it was too cold. Brett prefers to ferment warm; fermenting in the 80s is not a problem. I'm not sure what the lower temp limit is for the yeast.

It was low when I pitched. Around 55 F. It was up to 63F that night and a week later it started to get nice. It's still bubbling away. It's been around 65 F for three weeks now. The low end for Brett B is around 60 F. I like the low temp fermentation. Let them take their time, build complexity, yadda yadda. The batch I started at the same time is completely dry and sitting on its lees for a week now. That one has wyeast champagne and has been at 58F the whole time. Pretty cool to watch them at the same time.

The Brett one was fArty for like two weeks but now smells of apples and cherries and still has plenty of Sugar to eat up. Ill keep y'all posted.
 
The low end for Brett B is around 60 F. I like the low temp fermentation. Let them take their time, build complexity, yadda yadda.

From something like Brett, you will get more complexity fermenting it warm. I doubt you will get a clean ferment with Brett, but generally the lower the temp, the cleaner (less yeast developed flavors) the brew.
 
Calder said:
From something like Brett, you will get more complexity fermenting it warm. I doubt you will get a clean ferment with Brett, but generally the lower the temp, the cleaner (less yeast developed flavors) the brew.

Ok. I checked the sg today and its at 1.050. It tastes rad for being so young. All of the apple is there, and it has this super nice tart acidity. It's by no means funky. I am going to let it sit for at east another month and hopefully as it gets warmer some of the Brett characteristics will come forward.

Thanks Calder. I am sort of hoping that a clean ferment will let the complexities in the fruit come out ahead and that the Brett will underline that.
 
CodlingMoth said:
Ok. I checked the sg today and its at 1.050. It tastes rad for being so young. All of the apple is there, and it has this super nice tart acidity. It's by no means funky. I am going to let it sit for at east another month and hopefully as it gets warmer some of the Brett characteristics will come forward.

Thanks Calder. I am sort of hoping that a clean ferment will let the complexities in the fruit come out ahead and that the Brett will underline that.

Edit. I meant the sg is at 1.010, not 1.050.
 
Thanks for coming back and updating us, just yesterday, I was thinking about sending a PM asking for a follow-up.

Question:
Just how much Brett character was in the ciders? You covered the aromas of each batch as compared to the others, but how do they compare to a more typical Saccharomyces cider? Only #3 and #5 have any descriptors that I would link to Brett. Just curious.
 
Thanks for coming back and updating us, just yesterday, I was thinking about sending a PM asking for a follow-up.

Question:
Just how much Brett character was in the ciders? You covered the aromas of each batch as compared to the others, but how do they compare to a more typical Saccharomyces cider? Only #3 and #5 have any descriptors that I would link to Brett. Just curious.

The descriptors I listed were mostly flavor descriptors. I'd say the flavor contribution from the brett is comparable to the contribution normal saccharo would provide. Some strains were more flavorful than other, but that can be said about saccharo as well.

100% brett fermentations are expected to be cleaner and less "funky", and I would say that held true with this. Also, I fermented at 60 degrees. My next experiment might be to take a couple of these strains and try them at different temperatures. The brett contributed plenty of flavor, its just to say they aren't "brett bombs" you may know of in the beer world.

And yes, you hit on it, the flavor descriptors are not the typical brett flavors. We know wyeast's brett brux as the barnyard/musty/wet hay strain, and in cider it kicked off this sweet nectarine flavor. Crazy. You'd never get that in beer from that strain. All I can figure is that cider provides a different food source and so it creates different flavors. Its pretty fun.
 
Is it possible for Brett to occur naturally? I've made three batches using Wyeast4766 and unfiltered, organic juice. I really enjoy the way it turns out but friend who's sampled the same batches tells me he thinks it is "growing" characteristic claiming it is stronger each time he tastes it. I have cold crashed and kegged each batch. The last 5 gallons lasted about 10 days before it was gone and I definitely enjoyed the last bit. My other ciders with different juices and yeasts don't have this, so by deduction it has to be the yeast or the juice, obviously. My thought is the juice, wouldn't the yeast people advertise some sort of Brett qualities with this strain?
 
Is it possible for Brett to occur naturally? I've made three batches using Wyeast4766 and unfiltered, organic juice. I really enjoy the way it turns out but friend who's sampled the same batches tells me he thinks it is "growing" characteristic claiming it is stronger each time he tastes it. I have cold crashed and kegged each batch. The last 5 gallons lasted about 10 days before it was gone and I definitely enjoyed the last bit. My other ciders with different juices and yeasts don't have this, so by deduction it has to be the yeast or the juice, obviously. My thought is the juice, wouldn't the yeast people advertise some sort of Brett qualities with this strain?

Brett was almost certainly in the juice unless you used a campden tablet or pasteurized the juice.

It is possible that the brett built up and is working post fermentation, but it wouldn't be a noticeable difference in 10 days.
 
In a follow up: I had some leftover plain juice kicking at room temp in the gallon jug it came in and after a few days of cracking the lid here and there, it developed a pretty sizable yeast cake. Took a reading and it was 1.02 up from 1.06. Fizzy and sweet with that distinct Brett taste I have been getting in my previous batches. Cool juice!
 
Glad to see this one humming again. I just bottled my 100% Brett B and wow. It's nice. We drank it out of a porron a few nights ago. It hasn't really fully carbed yet. But before bottling, it tasted of unripe stone fruit and that meaty salami like Brett aftertaste. Killer! I will never not make a big batch of this style every year now. Really nice stuff.
 

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