My Electric Brewery

HumulusHead said:

@onkel_udo @augiedoggy @iijakii I am going to need to brew a batch for you guys, amongst others, after this project is complete. I owe you guys many thanks

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I appreciate the props, Just trying to pay it forward and share what I have learned to help others who were I was a couple years ago..

Testing your emergency stop should be perfectly safe. Its my understanding the resistors make it even safer although perhaps I have that wrong?
I wired my e stop to my main power so it just works to kill my main power relay instead of tripping my gfci since theres no real mechanics to stop the emergency stop is more of an "OH crap" kill switch than anything for these setups... If someone was being electrocuted it would almost always be all over before the estop could help unfortunately

augiedoggy said:

I appreciate the props, Just trying to pay it forward and share what I have learned to help others who were I was a couple years ago..

Testing your emergency stop should be perfectly safe. Its my understanding the resistors make it even safer although perhaps I have that wrong?
I wired my e stop to my main power so it just works to kill my main power relay instead of tripping my gfci since theres no real mechanics to stop the emergency stop is more of an "OH crap" kill switch than anything for these setups... If someone was being electrocuted it would almost always be all over before the estop could help unfortunately

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I would prefer to just tie my estop in to the main power, but someone told me (Kal maybe?) that you need a switch capable of doing that??? The switch I have, and most I found, are rated for far less than the 30a it could possibly see

I mean I guess I am tying it into the main power I just have the resistors inline with the switch.

HumulusHead said:

Yes that's what I mean ha. See! I should be careful about this stuff!

But finding out by trying is not what I hope happens ha....

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The problem is that the transformer is running off just one leg...what is it being used for and what else if being used simultaneously when it is being used. This is where the imbalance that can trip the GFCI can come from. It is rare, but If your GFCI is particularly sensitive (usually means they are not that great) it could trip every time to turn on the item while your element is one too.

Onkel_Udo said:

The problem is that the transformer is running off just one leg...what is it being used for and what else if being used simultaneously when it is being used. This is where the imbalance that can trip the GFCI can come from. It is rare, but If your GFCI is particularly sensitive (usually means they are not that great) it could trip every time to turn on the item while your element is one too.

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Eesh I hope that's not my case! That sounds like a pain in the ass!

Does anyone install a coil in their BK for chilling just like one would in a HLT? Is there any reasons why someone wouldn't do this?

HumulusHead said:

I would prefer to just tie my estop in to the main power, but someone told me (Kal maybe?) that you need a switch capable of doing that??? The switch I have, and most I found, are rated for far less than the 30a it could possibly see

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I use a switch that controls the power to my pid as well as my 24v powersupply which powers all my coils for my relays so in essence once I kill the 1 amp circuit that powers everything the rest shuts off with it.

augiedoggy said:

I use a switch that controls the power to my pid as well as my 24v powersupply which powers all my coils for my relays so in essence once I kill the 1 amp circuit that powers everything the rest shuts off with it.

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I really like that idea!

Though I don't have 24v contactors. I have 220v ones. So I would need a 220v switch to do this.

Is this the reason you went with 24v contactors?

So basically the way I have the estop setup right now is when you throw the estop, it trips the gfci. This would be different then cutting the power right? I want a way to cut all the power, not so much throw the gfci.

Like was mentioned earlier, by the time something truly electrocuting would happen, I wouldn't be able to throw the damn thing anyways. I want to have a quick access to kill the power, but also as like a fail safe. Like once I pull the estop out, I know the system is live.

I have a switch incorporated into my system that turns on the PID. If I just replace that switch with my estop would I get what I'm looking for?

This action would happen:
Pull estop. Turns on PID. Power is then able to be sent from PID to elements. So if PID is off, the elements can't be on. Is that right?

I'll also have a switch after the PID that will either allow power or not to an element.

HumulusHead said:

Does anyone install a coil in their BK for chilling just like one would in a HLT? Is there any reasons why someone wouldn't do this?

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This would honestly be a great idea..May look into modifying a 20 gallon pot to replace my Keggle BK to do this very thing and give it a go.
Probably cost me another $500 to get this done, but hey, its only money. They print more of it every day.

bbohanon said:

This would honestly be a great idea..May look into modifying a 20 gallon pot to replace my Keggle BK to do this very thing and give it a go.

Probably cost me another $500 to get this done, but hey, its only money. They print more of it every day.

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I'm thinking of doing this in a keggle BK. you can pick up custom made stainless coils for relatively cheap from stainless brewing. They even can add in bulk heads and disconnects. Thinking of going this route. Pretty much a herms coil just in the BK

You know, one thing to mull over might be mounting the coil in the lid. You could use that lid on your HLT during mash for HERMS, and then swap the lid over to the BK for chilling.

iijakii said:

You know, one thing to mull over might be mounting the coil in the lid. You could use that lid on your HLT during mash for HERMS, and then swap the lid over to the BK for chilling.

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Damn dog. I really really really really really like this idea. It'll save me a good deal of money and I was worried about the potential of breaking the chill coil in my bk from stirring and what not. This would also be awesome because I wouldn't need to pop as many holes in my vessels!!!!! Love it

Thanks man. This may be the route to go!

I know I've seen it on here a few times before. Can't recall the threads though...

I can totally picture what I would do too. Just need to come up with a lid since I threw away the keggle tops ha. But I think I have one for a turkey fryer that may be big enough.

what do you guys use for a 24v transformer to run those little tan pumps? i may incorp one into my panel if it is small enough

does anyone use anysort of speed control for those little pumps?

i always love me some links

I'm currently looking through the depths of ebay, but there are many options!

HumulusHead said:

what do you guys use for a 24v transformer to run those little tan pumps? i may incorp one into my panel if it is small enough

does anyone use anysort of speed control for those little pumps?

i always love me some links

I'm currently looking through the depths of ebay, but there are many options!

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http://www.ussolarpumps.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=145&products_id=113

MS

HumulusHead said:

Does anyone install a coil in their BK for chilling just like one would in a HLT? Is there any reasons why someone wouldn't do this?

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My BK heating element stopped working during a brew day once. So I transferred the wort to my HLT (that has a HERMS coil in it) and finished the brew day.

And then I had to clean the HLT afterwards.

Yeah. Not fun trying to clean the coils and cleaning the bottom and sides of the pot with the coil in the way.

LandoLincoln said:

My BK heating element stopped working during a brew day once. So I transferred the wort to my HLT (that has a HERMS coil in it) and finished the brew day.

And then I had to clean the HLT afterwards.

Yeah. Not fun trying to clean the coils and cleaning the bottom and sides of the pot with the coil in the way.

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You make a very good point there!

I think I am going to go the route of mounting one to a lid and can transfer from HLT to BK and then clean it all after!

Why not just fill the HLT with ice/water and pump the wort through the HERMS coil you already have? Cost no extra money. Sure you have to clean the coil, but you could just pump the cleaning solution that you already have to use on the BK through it. I bet it would be an extra 5 minutes to pump it through there and would save you hundreds.

Thats my plan at least.

If someone sees a problem with that I would love to hear it before I totally commit.

jonesry09 said:

Why not just fill the HLT with ice/water and pump the wort through the HERMS coil you already have? Cost no extra money. Sure you have to clean the coil, but you could just pump the cleaning solution that you already have to use on the BK through it. I bet it would be an extra 5 minutes to pump it through there and would save you hundreds.

Thats my plan at least.

If someone sees a problem with that I would love to hear it before I totally commit.

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I plan on doing something kinda similar. I want to use one coil for my herms setup. And that coil I will make semi portable. It will be attached to a lid that will fit my keggles. Then when I chill I just pick up the lid and move it to my brew kettle.

While as a herms coil it will be connected to my MLT. When I move it to the BK I will then connect it to my house water supply. So basically move the coil and swap connections.

It may be a little more expensive this way, but honestly not too much more than the way your planning on it. Just a couple more quick disconnects.

The reason I am Leary to do it the way you are is cuz I've always had a fear of pumping the cooled wort through areas that I can't visually confirm are clean. Such as through the coil. Same goes for me with counter flow chillers and plate chillers. I know that you can get this things clean and they work great, it's more of just maybe a phobia on my end.

jonesry09 said:

Why not just fill the HLT with ice/water and pump the wort through the HERMS coil you already have? Cost no extra money. Sure you have to clean the coil, but you could just pump the cleaning solution that you already have to use on the BK through it. I bet it would be an extra 5 minutes to pump it through there and would save you hundreds.

Thats my plan at least.

If someone sees a problem with that I would love to hear it before I totally commit.

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I would test this method first. I have heard that this does not chill nearly as efficiently as you would think.

cantrell00 said:

I would test this method first. I have heard that this does not chill nearly as efficiently as you would think.

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What do you think of the method I propose? Only issue I am coming across is the ass load of fittings I will most likely need

HumulusHead said:

what do you guys use for a 24v transformer to run those little tan pumps? i may incorp one into my panel if it is small enough

does anyone use anysort of speed control for those little pumps?

i always love me some links

I'm currently looking through the depths of ebay, but there are many options!

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Id use..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-24V-DC-...959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5feda61f

which will power multiple pumps at once so your future proofing.
And one of these to control speed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-36V-Pul...151?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d4ee8922f
I use one of the same ones along with other models and as long as they are the frequency for driving motors and not for dimming leds you should be fine...

HumulusHead said:

What do you think of the method I propose? Only issue I am coming across is the ass load of fittings I will most likely need

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for one thing you need something to constantly agitate the chilling water/ice...

augiedoggy said:

Id use..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-24V-DC-...959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5feda61f

which will power multiple pumps at once so your future proofing.
And one of these to control speed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-36V-Pul...151?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d4ee8922f
I use one of the same ones along with other models and as long as they are the frequency for driving motors and not for dimming leds you should be fine...

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1 question i have per item you listed.

The transformer. I dont need to worry about the tan pumps only needing 1.4 amps or whatever and this supplys 6A? If thats ok, would I be ok running some DC computer fans off this thing too? What about if my DC fans are 12V?

Could you reccomend the smallest size transformer that would run 2 tan pumps and 2 small DC fans? I am getting quite limited in space. If I ever need additional pumps or what not, I will be doing a new build...

The PWM. I was looking at a similar item and this is what I like. I like the 0-100%. Lots of them are only 10-100%. Do you use a switch in conjunction with this or is the 0% power good enough to consider "turned off"?

Maybe I could add a switch just to the transformer.

augiedoggy said:

for one thing you need something to constantly agitate the chilling water/ice...

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Did you mean to quote someone else? My method involves immersion chiller in boil kettle???

jonesry09 said:

Why not just fill the HLT with ice/water and pump the wort through the HERMS coil you already have? Cost no extra money. Sure you have to clean the coil, but you could just pump the cleaning solution that you already have to use on the BK through it. I bet it would be an extra 5 minutes to pump it through there and would save you hundreds.

Thats my plan at least.

If someone sees a problem with that I would love to hear it before I totally commit.

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I did this, and no it does not work the way you think. I filled my HLT with 20# of ice and water and trust me it burns through that like no tomorrow.

Don't do it... Either go with an immersion chiller with whirlpool, or go with a Plate or CFC.

HumulusHead said:

What do you think of the method I propose? Only issue I am coming across is the ass load of fittings I will most likely need

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It will not chill as efficiently as you would think...

The hot liquid heats the icy water faster than the icy water can chill. It reaches an equilibrium & the only way you can proceed is to add more ice cold water.

When you do the opposite with a IC, the chilling liquid stays at a constant (groundwater) temp & the wort cools down to match it.

That is the difference.

You CAN use the HLT/HERMS as a pre-chiller for your IC though. You just need to keep it recirculating to avoid stratification.

cantrell00 said:

It will not chill as efficiently as you would think...

The hot liquid heats the icy water faster than the icy water can chill. It reaches an equilibrium & the only way you can proceed is to add more ice cold water.

When you do the opposite with a IC, the chilling liquid stays at a constant (groundwater) temp & the wort cools down to match it.

That is the difference.

You CAN use the HLT/HERMS as a pre-chiller for your IC though. You just need to keep it recirculating to avoid stratification.

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You must also be talking about the other guys method??

My coil will be a herms coil then move the coil to the BK where I hook up groundwater and its now a IC

Oh... OK... Yeah you could do that... In fact in my setup I built an IC and converted it to a HERMS coil. So yeah you could do that... I would still recommend Whirlpooling during this time though.

HumulusHead said:

You must also be talking about the other guys method??

My coil will be a herms coil then move the coil to the BK where I hook up groundwater and its now a IC

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That'd work fine, just like any other IC.

Fittings wont be hard. Just on your garden hose have a 1/2" (assuming it's standard 1/2 hose...) to camlock, QD or whatever adapter on it.

HumulusHead said:

1 question i have per item you listed.

The transformer. I dont need to worry about the tan pumps only needing 1.4 amps or whatever and this supplys 6A? If thats ok, would I be ok running some DC computer fans off this thing too? What about if my DC fans are 12V?

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The pump will only consume its rated power (give or take).

The fans, if you use 2, can be placed in series and I think they will than be 24V. but this reference from computer builder blog seems to indicate it is not a good idea.

"One reason is that the current through to motor coil needs to alternate, so this is either done by a brush (commutator) or an inverter (for brushless fans). And when the current changes direction, there will be a short duration when no current flows, which translates into high impedance,
Which translates into a fan receiving more voltage which translates into that fan spoiling if you exposed it to voltages greater than what the fan can handle."

So I would suggest just buying the 24V fans (they usually are like $1 more).

iijakii said:

That'd work fine, just like any other IC.

Fittings wont be hard. Just on your garden hose have a 1/2" (assuming it's standard 1/2 hose...) to camlock, QD or whatever adapter on it.

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only reason i think fittings will be hard is due to i want to mount this through a lid.

start with SS coil with both ends ending in the vertical position through lid.

compression fittings with 1/2 mip on the bottom side of lid with mip going through lid

cam QD male end on upper side of lid, sandwiching lid in place.

That is the easy part.

Now i've read that these hoses tend to kink fairly easy when subject to tight corners and heat. And if you can picture what ive laid out so far, my hoses will be heading vertically out from lid. they will need to make a 180* to get to where they are going.

Was thinking of either hard plumbing some 90* bends or finding a spring that will snugly slip around the end of my hose to keep if from kinking

HumulusHead said:

You must also be talking about the other guys method??

My coil will be a herms coil then move the coil to the BK where I hook up groundwater and its now a IC

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Apparently so....

Yeah , you are good to go that way. Especially if you are whirlpooling.

Onkel_Udo said:

The pump will only consume its rated power (give or take).

The fans, if you use 2, can be placed in series and I think they will than be 24V. but this reference from computer builder blog seems to indicate it is not a good idea.

"One reason is that the current through to motor coil needs to alternate, so this is either done by a brush (commutator) or an inverter (for brushless fans). And when the current changes direction, there will be a short duration when no current flows, which translates into high impedance,
Which translates into a fan receiving more voltage which translates into that fan spoiling if you exposed it to voltages greater than what the fan can handle."

So I would suggest just buying the 24V fans (they usually are like $1 more).

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why not buy more fans when i've already got the 12v ones. oh well, ive got 2 of everything so far it seems like! I'm gonna have one hell of a selling list once my build is over

I ended up buying some 40A SSRs to replace the 25A ones as you suggested. Shoulda done that in the first place!

So say im running 2-24v tan pumps and the 2 fans at once. Say the tan pumps are 1.5A and the fans are .5A each. 4A power supply would be enough then right?

cantrell00 said:

Apparently so....

Yeah , you are good to go that way. Especially if you are whirlpooling.

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I'm going to add a whirlpool port.

I have a question maybe you can answer about this.

I want to use one of the whirlpool ports as my inlet when i transfer the wort from the MLT to the BK. would you think one of those little tan pumps would be able to fill the BK from the bottom up? Thats where I want to put the whirlpool ports. Just not sure if those little pumps can push up through that liquid. In my mind that shouldn't be any different that pumping to the top of the liquid level tho??

HumulusHead said:

I ended up buying some 40A SSRs to replace the 25A ones as you suggested. Shoulda done that in the first place!

So say im running 2-24v tan pumps and the 2 fans at once. Say the tan pumps are 1.5A and the fans are .5A each. 4A power supply would be enough then right?

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I think you have me confused with someone smarter on the SSR's things.

You calculations are accurate but I am not sure why you would run two fans at once. I can imaging having two fans for built in redundancy (one fails, your brew day is not over...just switch on the other) but if you are running both at once, is one pushing and one pulling? This is not me saying your are doing something wrong, just curiosity.

Onkel_Udo said:

I think you have me confused with someone smarter on the SSR's things.

You calculations are accurate but I am not sure why you would run two fans at once. I can imaging having two fans for built in redundancy (one fails, your brew day is not over...just switch on the other) but if you are running both at once, is one pushing and one pulling? This is not me saying your are doing something wrong, just curiosity.

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yup one would be pushing one would be pulling

the fans are very small so i thought two might be necessary

and they were cheap!