Balancing Water Profile Questions

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redwood

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This is what we have for our Source Water- Calcium (ppm): 33, Magnesium (ppm): 14, Alkalinity as CaCO3: 72, Sodium (ppm): 24 Chloride (ppm): 68, Sulfate (ppm): 51 and Water pH: 7.7

We are using Palmer's brewing worksheet and we are trying to make sure that our mash pH is correct. With our calculations we would have to add 2.8 grams of gypsum to get the residual alkalinity for an SRM of 5.

The problem is that once we get towards the bottom of the worksheet we end up with a "more bitter" sulfate to chloride ratio. How do we correct this, or would this be characteristic of the style we are brewing (Lager) or is this going to come out tasting like crap?

Our other question is calculating pH of sparge water...every spreadsheet I have tried to use, I end up with Div#/0 on the spreadsheets - can anyone offer any help? I think we have been sparging with too high of a pH and we are getting excessive tannin extraction.

:mug:
 
This is what we have for our Source Water- Calcium (ppm): 33, Magnesium (ppm): 14, Alkalinity as CaCO3: 72, Sodium (ppm): 24 Chloride (ppm): 68, Sulfate (ppm): 51 and Water pH: 7.7

Pretty nominal water except that the chloride is a bit high (not a problem). The sulftate is high if you want to do delicate lagers but a simple 1:1 dilution with RO would get that down and also get your alkalinity below 50 which is a good thing.

We are using Palmer's brewing worksheet and we are trying to make sure that our mash pH is correct. With our calculations we would have to add 2.8 grams of gypsum to get the residual alkalinity for an SRM of 5.

You don't make sure your mash pH is correct with a spreadsheet. You do it with a pH meter. There is no RA for an SRM of 5 or any other SRM. It would be lovely if this were the case but in fact the correlation between beer color and water RA is far too weak to use as a basis for water treatment decisions.

Generally speaking, you cannot achieve the desired mash pH by the addition of minerals alone. Except with dark beers some form of acid (sauermalz, lactic acid, phosphoric acid....) is required.

The problem is that once we get towards the bottom of the worksheet we end up with a "more bitter" sulfate to chloride ratio. How do we correct this, or would this be characteristic of the style we are brewing (Lager) or is this going to come out tasting like crap?

You get rid of this problem by forgetting about the idea of a bitter-malty scale defined in terms of a sulfate to chloride ratio and understanding what each of these ions does independent of the another. For many lagers the goal is to keep the sulfate as low as possible but there are exceptions. For a delicate lager with your water the best bet would be dilution of 2:1 or 3:1 which will lower sulfate to 17 or 13 and chloride to 23 or 17. The ratio doesn't really matter. What matters is that the sulfate is low. Given that it is, chloride can be anywhere from the teens up to 100. The higher it is, the more round, mellow, sweet the beer will taste.

A 2:1 dilution will lower alkalinity to 24 but will also drop calcium to 11. Fine lagers are made with calcium at that level but there are many who will tell you it needs to be augmented. In this case calcium chloride would be the salt of choice as you do not want to increase the sulfate while, as noted above, you have considerable latitude with the chloride.

Our other question is calculating pH of sparge water...every spreadsheet I have tried to use, I end up with Div#/0 on the spreadsheets - can anyone offer any help? I think we have been sparging with too high of a pH and we are getting excessive tannin extraction.

Can't comment here other than to say that except in unusual circumstances there is seldom reason to treat the sparge water any differently that the water used in the main mash. If you, for example, dilute the main mash water to lower the alkalinity to a more desirable value it is unlikely that the new lower alkalinity will be sufficient to pull runoff pH above 6 at reasonable runoff gravity. As is the case with mash pH, certainty WRT runoff pH comes from measuring it with a meter - not through the use of a spreadsheet.
 
Pretty nominal water except that the chloride is a bit high (not a problem). The sulftate is high if you want to do delicate lagers but a simple 1:1 dilution with RO would get that down and also get your alkalinity below 50 which is a good thing.

You don't make sure your mash pH is correct with a spreadsheet. You do it with a pH meter. There is no RA for an SRM of 5 or any other SRM. It would be lovely if this were the case but in fact the correlation between beer color and water RA is far too weak to use as a basis for water treatment decisions.

We were following the advice to pay more attention to RA than to pH, which is why we weren't too concerned with using the pH meter. On the spreadsheet it says to maintain a certain SRM range we need to achieve a certain RA, that's why we had a focus on that.

It gives us the low-high range of estimated RA, and we ended up seeing that "Additional Eff. Hardness Needed: 75". We calculated that we needed 2.8g of gypsum to raise our hardness to 75.

Is most of what we are doing incorrect?

Generally speaking, you cannot achieve the desired mash pH by the addition of minerals alone. Except with dark beers some form of acid (sauermalz, lactic acid, phosphoric acid....) is required.

I understand, but was under the impression that the mash would by virtue of it's properties, bring the pH down to some acceptable level. Obviously if we had a meter in, we would know exactly to what, and then add acid or salts from there.

There is no way to get near ballpark numbers using spreadsheets?


You get rid of this problem by forgetting about the idea of a bitter-malty scale defined in terms of a sulfate to chloride ratio and understanding what each of these ions does independent of the another. For many lagers the goal is to keep the sulfate as low as possible but there are exceptions. For a delicate lager with your water the best bet would be dilution of 2:1 or 3:1 which will lower sulfate to 17 or 13 and chloride to 23 or 17. The ratio doesn't really matter. What matters is that the sulfate is low. Given that it is, chloride can be anywhere from the teens up to 100. The higher it is, the more round, mellow, sweet the beer will taste.


1) Why keep the sulfates low, what is happening chemically?


A 2:1 dilution will lower alkalinity to 24 but will also drop calcium to 11. Fine lagers are made with calcium at that level but there are many who will tell you it needs to be augmented. In this case calcium chloride would be the salt of choice as you do not want to increase the sulfate while, as noted above, you have considerable latitude with the chloride.

Ok :mug:


Can't comment here other than to say that except in unusual circumstances there is seldom reason to treat the sparge water any differently that the water used in the main mash. If you, for example, dilute the main mash water to lower the alkalinity to a more desirable value it is unlikely that the new lower alkalinity will be sufficient to pull runoff pH above 6 at reasonable runoff gravity. As is the case with mash pH, certainty WRT runoff pH comes from measuring it with a meter - not through the use of a spreadsheet.

So you're saying just diluting the source water will allow for the alkilinity to be low enough that we'll avoid tannin extraction?


I originally thought we just needed to add acid to the mash and our sparge water so we would stay away from tannin extraction.


Thanks for the help! We feel quite a bit of this is over our heads right now!
 
We were following the advice to pay more attention to RA than to pH, which is why we weren't too concerned with using the pH meter.

That is bad advice indeed.

On the spreadsheet it says to maintain a certain SRM range we need to achieve a certain RA, that's why we had a focus on that.

The author of this concept has referred to the SRM ~ RA concept as "hand waving at best' but the home brewing community continues to adhere to it as gospel truth. You will be well served if you put it out of your mind.

It gives us the low-high range of estimated RA, and we ended up seeing that "Additional Eff. Hardness Needed: 75". We calculated that we needed 2.8g of gypsum to raise our hardness to 75.

But if I understand the original post correctly you are trying to do a lager and for lagers you want (with notable exceptions) soft (low mineral water) so you do not want to use minerals for mash pH control. You want fewer rather than more minerals.

Is most of what we are doing incorrect?

I wouldn't say wrong because adding calcium does decrease mash pH. Just not enough, in most cases, unless an inordinate quantity is added. Remember that it takes 3.5 mEq of calcium to neutralize 1 mEq of alkalinity. In any event you can do better than just adding salts.



I understand, but was under the impression that the mash would by virtue of it's properties, bring the pH down to some acceptable level. Obviously if we had a meter in, we would know exactly to what, and then add acid or salts from there.

And that's why I advocate the use of the meter. You can calculate (with a spreadsheet or otherwise) what the temperature of a doughed in mash would be and probably do that but you wouldn't think of not checking the result with a thermometer. It's much the same with a pH meter. The major difference is that the pH models are not nearly as robust as the temperature models and it is therefore doubly important to check pH.

There is no way to get near ballpark numbers using spreadsheets?

Yes, the spreadsheets do give ballpark numbers and some are better at it than others and all work better for some types of beers than others. For success (however you define it - better beer by whatever criterion of goodness you choose and there are several) it is necessary to understand what is going on and use that knowledge to guide you in the use of a spreadsheet. For example, in a lager you know that you usually want soft water and so would shoot for proper pH by the use of acid rather than salts whereas in a Burton style ale you know gypseous water is traditional and so the calcium in gypsum should be a part of the pH reduction.

Why keep the sulfates low, what is happening chemically?
The details (or even the high level picture) of the chemistry I don't know. Concern stems from the fact that sulfate renders hops bitterness sharp, coarse and dry. Sometimes these qualities are desired (aforementioned Buton style ales) and sometimes not (Bohemian Pilsner). In general high sulfate and noble hops seem to be a bad mix. I'm told you can test the effect by adding gypsum to finished beer which suggests that the chemistry takes place in your mouth rather than the mash tun or kettle.




So you're saying just diluting the source water will allow for the alkilinity to be low enough that we'll avoid tannin extraction?

I originally thought we just needed to add acid to the mash and our sparge water so we would stay away from tannin extraction.

If the sparge water is highly alkaline then it will neutralize the acid in the runoff and pH will go high. If it is not then the converse will be true and you will probably be able to sparge down to 3-4 °P before runoff pH rises above 6. You can, of course, measure this and having done so a couple of times will know where to cut off collection to stay under pH6. Or you can add acid to the sparge water.

Note that in traditional lager brewing the mash (grains included) is boiled one or more times which is going to extract tannins but that the beer is lagered so that the tannins have an opportunity to drop out.


Thanks for the help! We feel quite a bit of this is over our heads right now!

I understand how overwhelming all this can be especially given the diversity of opinions. Unfortunately some of the commonly accepted information is not very solid. Note that I don't have the temerity to suggest that I'm the only guy who understands this. What I'm reporting is what works for me and seems to have some basis in brewing science.

I've tried for many years to think of some way to simplify all this and have concluded I can't. But I did give it a shot in the Primer in the stickies here. You might want to look at that.
 
That is bad advice indeed.

:tank:

The author of this concept has referred to the SRM ~ RA concept as "hand waving at best' but the home brewing community continues to adhere to it as gospel truth. You will be well served if you put it out of your mind.

Alright, will do.

But if I understand the original post correctly you are trying to do a lager and for lagers you want (with notable exceptions) soft (low mineral water) so you do not want to use minerals for mash pH control. You want fewer rather than more minerals.

I see. Every spreadsheet has it's own "range" of ions. I guess what we're seeking now is what will make a beer representative of the water source, but not taste like crap?

I see Palmer's ranges, but where do those come from?

Where can I find acceptable ranges for all styles?

Where can I find a document that shows high RA is good for dark beers, and low RA is good for lagers/pilsners?

I'm not after replicating Munich's water or anything like that, but seeking to get the local water to produce a decent beer.

I wouldn't say wrong because adding calcium does decrease mash pH. Just not enough, in most cases, unless an inordinate quantity is added. Remember that it takes 3.5 mEq of calcium to neutralize 1 mEq of alkalinity. In any event you can do better than just adding salts.

And that's why I advocate the use of the meter. You can calculate (with a spreadsheet or otherwise) what the temperature of a doughed in mash would be and probably do that but you wouldn't think of not checking the result with a thermometer. It's much the same with a pH meter. The major difference is that the pH models are not nearly as robust as the temperature models and it is therefore doubly important to check pH.

Understand fully on the meter, but now these questions come up:

Once I learn the acceptable "ranges" of ion concentration, and we start the mash and use our pH meter, how do we know how much salts or acid to add to lower or raise pH?

How much is too much gypsum? How would we know to add chalk instead of gypsum? How much is too much lactic acid?


Yes, the spreadsheets do give ballpark numbers and some are better at it than others and all work better for some types of beers than others. For success (however you define it - better beer by whatever criterion of goodness you choose and there are several) it is necessary to understand what is going on and use that knowledge to guide you in the use of a spreadsheet. For example, in a lager you know that you usually want soft water and so would shoot for proper pH by the use of acid rather than salts whereas in a Burton style ale you know gypseous water is traditional and so the calcium in gypsum should be a part of the pH reduction.

Understood.

If the sparge water is highly alkaline then it will neutralize the acid in the runoff and pH will go high. If it is not then the converse will be true and you will probably be able to sparge down to 3-4 °P before runoff pH rises above 6. You can, of course, measure this and having done so a couple of times will know where to cut off collection to stay under pH6. Or you can add acid to the sparge water.

Note that in traditional lager brewing the mash (grains included) is boiled one or more times which is going to extract tannins but that the beer is lagered so that the tannins have an opportunity to drop out.

Interesting, thanks.

I understand how overwhelming all this can be especially given the diversity of opinions. Unfortunately some of the commonly accepted information is not very solid. Note that I don't have the temerity to suggest that I'm the only guy who understands this. What I'm reporting is what works for me and seems to have some basis in brewing science.

I've tried for many years to think of some way to simplify all this and have concluded I can't. But I did give it a shot in the Primer in the stickies here. You might want to look at that.

I have read the primer, and it makes sense, but then a million more questions pop out as seen above. I'm on my second time through the entire thread of the primer.

Thanks again for the help, it's very much appreciated! At this rate I don't know that we'll ever figure it out! :eek:
 
I see. Every spreadsheet has it's own "range" of ions. I guess what we're seeking now is what will make a beer representative of the water source, but not taste like crap?

There are several criteria by which one can jusdge the "goodness" of beer. Some of them are
1. Tastes good to the brewer
2. Tastes good to the brewers wife
3. Tastes good to the brewers friends
4. Wins ribbons in competitions
5. Is authentic i.e. is a good "clone" of some existing or past commercial beer.
6. Is stable i.e. doesn't change much over long storage time.

Each of these (and there are probably more) produces a slightly different beer. You seem focused on authenticity which is fine if that's really what you want but you should keep in mind that you can brew a better Burton ale than the original Burton brewers did because you have more knowledge and better technology on your side. If those people had known how to remove sulfate from their water they probably would have done so. But the fact that you are brewing a Burton ale says that you want some Buton character because if you didn't you would be brewing something else. So the idea is to get a better tasting beer with some Burton character and, IMO, the only way to do that is to start with low mineral water, adding some gypsum and calcium chloride and then doing it over and over again until you find the mix that suits you under any of the above criteria. In the course of your explorations you will find which you like best, which your wife likes best and which is most likely to win competitions. You will then be able to tailor your brewing (e.g. less sulfate to please Mrs, more to satisfy the style Nazi's) to your target "market".

Obviously, researching the beer you intend to brew is a good place to start. Continuing the Burton example research will show you that Burton water is modestly carbonaceous and highly gypseous with a low RA so it should be clear that you would need some sulfate to attain Burton character. If researching Pilsen you would find the water extremely soft so it is clear that you would brew Pisner with soft water if you can. Etc.

I see Palmer's ranges, but where do those come from?
That you would have to ask John. There are hundreds of 'published' water reports for various famous brewing cities floating around on the internet, in textbooks, in magazine articles, in the AHA style series monographs etc. I expect he poured over those and took the extremes but I really don't know.

Where can I find acceptable ranges for all styles?

You'd really have to do the research your self. But the research should only give you a general idea. You will really need to experiment to hit the sweet spot for any particular style. Accordingly I recommend concentrating on one style i.e. brewing it more often than any other. When you have mastered that one (note: it took me 20 yrs to get Pils right) you can move on to another. But the things you learn trying to brew a good Pils will help you make a better stout too.

Where can I find a document that shows high RA is good for dark beers, and low RA is good for lagers/pilsners?

You can't because it isn't really true. RA was developed for comparison of brewing waters. If a water source has high RA that doesn't mean it can't be used for brewing lagers. It just means that the treatment of the water and grain bill need to recognize that the source water has high RA. Conversely, you don't need high RA to brew a good stout. You just need to know what to do to low RA water in order to produce good stout from it.

I'm not after replicating Munich's water or anything like that, but seeking to get the local water to produce a decent beer.

The recommendations in the Primer will get you a decent beer. From there you can step off towards better beer.



Once I learn the acceptable "ranges" of ion concentration, and we start the mash and use our pH meter, how do we know how much salts or acid to add to lower or raise pH?
Salts have limited power to lower pH. It takes 3.5 mEq of calcium to "neutralize" 1 mEq of alkalinity. So the best bet, IMO, is to set calcium to 50 mg/L (lower for some beers) and then rely on acid to get you to the right pH. The best way to figure the amount is to withdraw about a half pound of the grist, mix it with the water you intend to use, warm it to about 140 F, let it sit for a minute or 2, draw off some liquid, cool it back to room temperature and measure the pH. That's the pH (or close to the pH) you will get in the main mash. If you want a pH lower than that then add 1% sauermalz to the grist for each 0.1 unit pH drop sought. This should get you pretty close. Adjust on subsequent brews. Or, if you prefer another acid, add it incrementally to the test mash until you get the desired pH and scale for the full brew. The test mash can be the whole mash but the danger of doing this will the whole mash is overshoot (i.e. you add too much acid and wind up with pH 4.8). You can try to correct that but can windup with the acid bottle in one hand and the alkali jar in the other chasing the elusive pH.

Following the recommendations in the Primer should get you reasonably close.

How much is too much gypsum?
It's the amount that makes the beer too "hops forward" according to your chosen criterion of goodness.

How would we know to add chalk instead of gypsum?

They have, in terms of pH control, opposite effects. One adds calcium to lower pH (though it is generally better to use acid for this) and chalk to raise it however chalk should only be added to the mash if a pH meter measurement indicates a low mash pH. It should only be added to the water when the ultimate in authenticity is sought including an authentic brewing experience i.e. you are going to do all the things a, for example, Munich Helles brewer did to Isar water to brew a Helles which includes decarbonating it so you prepare cabonaceous water and then procede to decarbonate it. Seems a waste of time to me.

How much is too much lactic acid?
An amount that a) lowers the mash pH too much or b) results in an undesired lactic quality in the finished beer.


I have read the primer, and it makes sense, but then a million more questions pop out as seen above.

That's to be expected. The Primer represents an extreme simplification of a complex subject. First, the chemistry is intricate and second there is the variability of styles and water treatment practices which have evolved over many years of brewing.

At this rate I don't know that we'll ever figure it out! :eek:

I've been at it for over 20 years and there are still plenty of questions in my mind too so don't expect quick gratification here. It can be an interesting area of study though.
 
AJ -- you should write a book about brewing chemistry. Your posts are always filled with great information!
 
Great thread. I have come to the difficult conclusion that once you get past any parameters that are seriously out of range, the rest almost relies upon school of hard knocks and trial and error. There just doesn't seem to be any definitive answers or a conversion chart of sorts that says "add X amount of agent Y" to make the best beer. Partially because there are variances in styles, partially because nobody other than yourself can verify your mash pH which consequently could vary by grain bill, and partially because some of this is less dependent on exact data points than it is on individual palates, which cannot be quantified. AJ does a great job trying though and seems to be the best versed on the subject as anyone I've seen. Just my. 02, if its even worth that. :D
 

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