Risk of autolysis in a 3 week fermentation

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neudson

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Hi guys, i'm new around here and maybe your already have answer this question somewhere, but here is the deal.

I'm brewing my first batch right now. I'm using malt extract and steeped grain to brew an Imperial IPA (at least i intend it to be). The original gravity for it was of 1.082, and i'm intending to leave it fermenting for almost three weeks (i'm entering in the 4th day fermenting) before taking it to bottle conditioning and carbonation.

The thing is, when i said that on an brazilian homebrew forum, they told me that the fermentation time (not using a second fermentor) was too long and i was risking to have an autolisis. One of them recommended me to drop the temperature to 40F (5ºC) after the fermentation is complete to avoid autolisis.

Is there any logic in this? I'm using John Palmer's How to Brew as a guide and nowhere there he mentions droping the temperature for an ale to a lager one.
 
You're not brewing a 30 bbl batch in a conical fermenter are you? Then don't worry about it. Autolysis isn't a factor in that timeframe. You don't need to drop the temperature either. Let it sit at fermentation temperature for three weeks, let the yeast do their job. Then rack and bottle.

Palmer doesn't mention dropping that temperature because you don't have to do it.
 
Well alot of people like to cold crash their brews to help clean things (yeast, hop/grain bits, etc) out and let it all settle to the bottom of the fermentor. I currently don't have the option to cold crash until I pick up a fermentation chamber but if u have the means i know alot of people will recommend it. As far as worrying about autolysis with a three week ferment, no u will be fine. I've heard different amounts of time used but most of them state that u can in fact leave the brew on the yeast cake for up to and beyond a month and a half to two months and still be ok. Most people here don't even bother with a secondary ferment as the risk of infecting the batch far outweighs the risk of autolysis.
 
Hi guys, thanks for quick feedback. Skeptidelphian, no it's not a 30 bbl batch using a conical fermentor. In fact it's a really small first batch, someting like 3 gallons. And Pratzie, i also don't have the means to cold crash my beer, i just have to hope that the three weeks fermentation time will do most of the this job and deliver me a quite clear beer, but if it is a little bit hazy, i won't mind!
Just can't wait to taste it!
:mug:
 
If the beer isn't clear enough to suit you at 3 weeks, leave it another week. It'll be fine. I've gone 9 weeks without autolysis. I've heard from another brewer who left his beer in the primary for 8 months without ill effects.
 
You could leave it for months and not have to worry about autolysis. RDWHAHB and cheers!
 
Curious, you mentioned your were making an IPA, but didn't mention anything about drop hopping. Double check your kit recipe and make sure they didn't specify this, as most IPAs get some kind of dry hopping for a week to ten days. If so, add the dry hops after fermentation directly into your primary bucket during the three week period.
 
You could leave it for months and not have to worry about autolysis. RDWHAHB and cheers!
The working word here is "could". Autolysis is a real thing. Stressed yeast (low pitch rate, poor temperature control . . .) combined with storing your primary warm or where there are temperature swings "could" cause autolysis.
 
After the first few days, some people will slowly warm their beers to about 70F to help the yeast clean up the byproducts from fermentation.
 
Yeah, i'm aware about the dryhopping for IPAs, but as i was not too much sure about the process, i left it for another time.

AnOldUR, in case of temperature control, do you think that this variation of around 6 degrees (62F to 68F) (in terms of celsius it's just 3 degrees) is very poor? I wasn't able to get a fridge to keep the temperature fixed (here we are at constant 86F room temperature) so I had to improvise. Anyway...I think my pitch rate was good, so if i'm to have problems is with the temperature control. For you to have an idea, i've made a gravity measure with 24hs and the OG has droped from 1.082 to somewhere around 1.045. I think it's good, isn't it?
 
Read this, and you'll see that even John Palmer, who caused the whole autolysis panic among new brewers like you has retracted his views on it....

Nowadays even many instructions, in BYO magazine, and even some kits suggest a long primary as opposed to using a secondary. So it's pretty obviously that they're not buying that bogeyman anymore either.

I suggest you read THIS thread, it's become the "uber discussion" on this topic thread.

To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .


Autolysis is not the inevitable end of healthy yeast. It is the unnatural end that is a product of yeast health...like peritinitus or even cancer in us....it is an abberation....UNHEALTHY AND STRESSED yeast autolyse... but rarely do we have unhealthy yeast these days, most of the yeast we pitch is fresh...and unless we are making a huge beer, even underpitching will not NECESSARILY produce stressed out yeast. Or stressed out yeast that will automatically autlolyse....

Most yeast that folks call dead, is actually dormant. Like most of what's in the bottom of the fermenter when fermentation is complete. And the yeast is indead dead, a lot of it is canibalized by the living yeast. And the rest, if the yeast was healthy to begin with, is just dead....think of it as natural causes, it's not necessarily spilling it's "intestinal" goop into our beer.

As Palmer and Jamil have said it is a RARE occurance these days that yeast actually dies anymore, let alone actually autolyses. It just goes dormant when the job is done and waits for the next round of sugar (much like when we pitch on top of the old yeast cake- which even some commercial brewers do for multiple generations.) The cells rarely rupture and die off.

It's not like 30 years ago (when most of those opinions that you espouse about autolysis originated from) when our hobby was still illegal, and there wasn't a lot of FRESH yeast available to us. The yeast used in hobby brewing was usually in cake form, which came from Germany and England in hot cargo ships and may have sat on a store shelf for a long time....or the brewer just used bread yeast.

Palmer even said this in the broadcast I quote from above-

So the whole health and vitality of yeast was different back then compared to now. Back then it made sense. You had weaker yeast that had finished fermentation that were more susceptible to autolysis and breaking down. Now that is not the case. The bar of homebrewing has risen to where we are able to make beer that has the same robustness as professional beer. We've gotten our techniques and understanding of what makes a good fermentation up to that level, so you don't need to transfer the beer off the yeast to avoid autolysis like we used to recommend.

Yeast in the 21st century is much healthier to begin with, and is less prone to have issues like their cells autolysing....just like our own health tends to be better these days.

Many of us leave our beers a MINIMUM of 1 month before racking or bottling, folks have left their beers in primary for a year or more with no issues. This is not something these days that most brewers (except noobs just stumbling onto Palmer's free book,) worry about.
 
For you to have an idea, i've made a gravity measure with 24hs and the OG has droped from 1.082 to somewhere around 1.045. I think it's good, isn't it?
Yeah, you're good. And those temperatures are fine. Just try to keep it in that range throughout the time it's in the primary.

I agree with what's in Revvy's post. Autolysis is unlikely. But between it being your first batch and your warm location, I was thinking worse case scenario of your beer sitting in that 86 degree room for an extended period.
 
:off:

here we are at constant 86F room temperature

I should pay you to give my SWMBO a presentation on first world problems. I've been chewed out several times this year for keeping the thermostat at 75-76. She DEMANDS 72-73. :cross:
 
You'll be fine. Leave it alone for three weeks, a month, six weeks. As long as it's not in there for three or four months, you'll be fine.
 
I had two different brews in their primaries for 14 months. Pulled them off after tasting to make sure flavor was good & bottled with yeast added to the bottling bucket along with priming sugar. Was not a problem.
 
Many of us leave our beers a MINIMUM of 1 month before racking or bottling, folks have left their beers in primary for a year or more with no issues. This is not something these days that most brewers (except noobs just stumbling onto Palmer's free book,) worry about.

Just leave the fermenter lid on to keep the CO2 "blanket" from being blown away and you will be fine..

bosco
 
Thanks everyone!

I was just for taking it out of my head. I'll keep it fermenting for the planned three weels and then going for racking and bottling. When it's ready i came back to share the results with you!
 
I can't really add anything that you haven't already read here, but for reference, I only rack to secondayr for dry hopping and weather or not I do that, I leave the beer in primary for at least 3 weeks. So far, that has been my magic number of giving the yeast enough time to clean everything up.

From everything I have read on this site and information given to me personally, the old ways of racking to secondary, getting the year off the yeast in two weeks, etc. Thos are all things that were developed in the early days of homebrewing. Today's technology and better products have changed those old ideas quite a bit. Sometimes it's hard to adapt to change. And when the old ways of brewing have worked for someone, it's tough to convince them there may be a better way.
 
Most of the Ales I brew are in the my conical for three weeks, and my lagers can be in for months, never even the hint of autolysis. I don't even know anyone whose had it.
 
I think people are taking the "no secondary" thing too far. Autolysis is a real thing and it can happen on a 5gal batch...probably not with 1056 but try leaving 1318 london 3 for a month on the yeast cake and taste the "mythical" yeast bite. That said, I don't think 1318 needs a secondary but when its done get it off the yeast because 3 weeks is way too long...but package and drink it, don't stick it in another carboy. Even english yeasts that aren't autolysis prone don't do well if left for weeks on the yeast cake after fermentation is done- 1968 will chew up all the malty goodness and english character once its done fermenting.
 
I can't say about 1968 because I don't use it, but I do use a LOT of WLP002, and I've definitely left ESBs, English IPAs and porters on the yeast cake for upwards of a month, and had absolutely zero issues with autolysis. In fact, I think the porter I left on the cake for six weeks (I was traveling and couldn't get home to rack) was one of the best I've made. Moral of the story: YMMV.

Cheers
 
I can't say about 1968 because I don't use it, but I do use a LOT of WLP002, and I've definitely left ESBs, English IPAs and porters on the yeast cake for upwards of a month, and had absolutely zero issues with autolysis. In fact, I think the porter I left on the cake for six weeks (I was traveling and couldn't get home to rack) was one of the best I've made. Moral of the story: YMMV.

Cheers

I haven't had autolysis issues with 1968 but it will often continue fermenting far past the 70% attentuation advertised for the strain resulting in a very clean beer. Not necessarily bad but you will lose everything that makes the strain unique. here is a great thread discussing british yeasts https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...on-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/
 
I haven't had autolysis issues with 1968 but it will often continue fermenting far past the 70% attentuation advertised for the strain resulting in a very clean beer. Not necessarily bad but you will lose everything that makes the strain unique. here is a great thread discussing british yeasts https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...on-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/

Yeah I guess I could see that. I tend to mash my British styles a little on the higher side so I don't worry too much about over-attenuation. I especially like a higher temp mash with WLP007, which I think gives a great full british flavor but without getting too sweet.
 
Hi guys, back here. Well, passed that thing with autolisis i'm here to share the progress of the beer. Today, almost 7 days fermenting, i took another gravity reading, and got 1.036 (it started on 1.082) and the trub has settled. I took a sip of it, and it tasted a little bit like wine, astringent, and alcoholic.

I don't know, I expected a gravity a little lower, maybe in the range of the 20's, and would like to know if this flavor it's normal for such a young beer.
 
With that high of a starting gravity, your beer isn't done fermenting at 7 days. Try a gravity reading at 3 weeks and see what you get and what it tastes like.

The temperature of the fermenting wort makes a huge difference in the flavor. Find out the temperature range your yeast strain likes and keep the fermenter near the bottom of that range at first because at the higher temperature the yeast give off flavors and fusel alcohol which will give a "hot alcohol" taste. The trick I've learned is to start the ferment as close to the coolest the yeast prefer and after a week let it warm to room temperature or warmer to encourage the yeast to finish the ferment.
 
With that high of a starting gravity, your beer isn't done fermenting at 7 days. Try a gravity reading at 3 weeks and see what you get and what it tastes like.

Yeah, i'm aware that the fermentation process is not done yet. But i could say that the primary fermentation is done judging by that drop in gravity and the trub having settled?

I'm planning leaving it fermenting along with the yeast cake for another 2 weeks, then rack it and bottled for carbonation and conditioning, taking more 2 weeks on this.
 
Yeah, i'm aware that the fermentation process is not done yet. But i could say that the primary fermentation is done judging by that drop in gravity and the trub having settled?

I'm planning leaving it fermenting along with the yeast cake for another 2 weeks, then rack it and bottled for carbonation and conditioning, taking more 2 weeks on this.

You might want to consider leaving it longer than the 3 weeks total. Remember that this is a high gravity beer and it might take longer because of that.
 
You might want to consider leaving it longer than the 3 weeks total. Remember that this is a high gravity beer and it might take longer because of that.

But in that case, would be better change for a secondary fermentor or i could just leave it where it is along with the yeast cake?
 
You might want to consider leaving it longer than the 3 weeks total. Remember that this is a high gravity beer and it might take longer because of that.

But in that case, would be better transfer the beer to a second fermentor or could i leave it where it is, along with the yeast cake?
 
I think that there are advantages to leaving it on the yeast cake. For one, you have more chance of infection if you transfer the beer and a chance to get some more oxidation. The yeast cake seems to help clear up off flavors and make the beer mature faster too.
 
I think RN-MN is right on with this....remember 1.082 is a relatively big beer, they take longer. Also there is more harm potential from transfering it (i.e Infection Oxidation, etc) to secondary than leaving it right were it is in it safe happy place;)

Yeast are really good at cleaning up after themselves, unlike my children.....
 
Getting back here with you guys to share the progress of my brew. Well, today, after 2 weeks fermenting i took another SG reading and it showed 1.029 (last week i've got 1.036).
That alcohol aroma and flavor it is still there, but way less strong than the week before. It smells more like beer now, not wine anymore. It's less cloudy too. I'm planning to leave it fermenting for one more week, but now rising a little the temperature to the high end (around 20 and 23ºC).

Really happy with the progress of this first brew! :)
 
Getting back here with you guys to share the progress of my brew. Well, today, after 2 weeks fermenting i took another SG reading and it showed 1.029 (last week i've got 1.036).
That alcohol aroma and flavor it is still there, but way less strong than the week before. It smells more like beer now, not wine anymore. It's less cloudy too. I'm planning to leave it fermenting for one more week, but now rising a little the temperature to the high end (around 20 and 23ºC).

Really happy with the progress of this first brew! :)

It's hard to make plans when you aren't in charge, the yeast are, and they work on their schedule, not yours. They are working hard (as evidenced by the change in gravity and smell) but they are working in difficult conditions as the alcohol content keeps going up. Warming the beer is a good idea at this point as it helps the yeast get the last of the sugars and the byproducts of fermentation broken down. Check your gravity in a week but don't be in a rush to bottle because if the yeast aren't done you are going to get overcarbonated beer at best and bottle bombs at worst.
 
Check your gravity in a week but don't be in a rush to bottle because if the yeast aren't done you are going to get overcarbonated beer at best and bottle bombs at worst.

Thanks! I will do some gravity checks next week, see how it progress. I will bottle only if the gravity has stopped dropping coimpletely. If it takes another week, so be it!
 
Back to you here guys. Another gravity readign of my brew today, 4 days after the last one. And i got, again, 1.029. It was fermenting at a higher temperature range for the last four days (between 20º and 23º, sometimes a little higher) and it seems it's stuck. Well, i did what i have read in other posts: I stirred to get the yeast back at suspention, and see how it goes. I will try to keep it fermentig near 23º for the next days.
 
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