Lagering... how to?

Okay, I am brewing my first lager this weekend... a Helles. I have been trying to read up on the process for the ferment and here is what I have, opinions and ideas welcome!

#1 Cool the wort to 55F (WLP833 ferment temp) as well as the starter to avoid shocking the yeast.

#2 Ferment at 50-55F for 1-2 weeks

#3 Rack beer to secondary and allow it to warm to approx 60F for 2 days for a diacetyl rest

#4 Cool beer to approx 40F for 3-4 weeks (or longer)

#5 Keg and carbonate.

What a pain, but, it will be worth it!

This reply is not necessarily for the OP but Kaiser has written an article on the wiki about this. It's extremely informative and well worth the read.

THANKS

Pol

Here is my thought, since there are SO many different ideas about homebrew lagering.

#1 produce a starter 24-30 hours prior to pitching, at 68F....
#2 cool wort to 68F after brewing
#3 pitch starter at high krausen
#4 immediately move carboy to ferment fridge set at 50F
#5 ferment here for 1-2 weeks
#6 raise temp of ferment fridge to 65F to finish ferment and to clean up any sulfer and diacetyl
#7 crash beer to 35F for 4 weeks to lager

My thinking is this... I will get a more active starter at a warmer temp, I will get a boost to my ferment at a warmer temp, the 5.5 gallons of beer in a 50F fridge will take some time to cool. Doing the diacetyl rest will clean up any byproducts of the warm starter and the potentially warmer initial ferment.

I am doing a lager for the first time this weekend. I was thinking along the same lines. 68 degree starter, and pitch at same. Once pitched, cool down to 50. By the time it gets to 50 degrees, the yeast should be eating sugar at full speed!!!

Yeah, I guess we will both have to see how it works out. I cannot imagine that 5.5 gallons of 68F liquid will cool to 50F too quickly for the yeasties, especially after pitching a starter. And, any diacetyl will be cleaned up with the diacetyl rest later... God Speed!

That sounds ok, but I like to pitch 50 degree yeast starter (spent wort decanted off) into 52 degree wort. The slightly warmer wort gets the yeast going, and there is no chance of off flavors. The diacetyl rest will get rid of any diacetyl (and some lager yeasts don't even need one) but if you get fruity esters, they seem to be there to stay. I think some people advocating pitching warm like that and bringing the temp down, but I'm a believer in pitching at fermenting temps. I wouldn't pitch an ale yeast at, say 80 degrees, and then bring it down to 68 degrees; so I wouldn't do it to a lager yeast either.

The key is a big starter, whichever you choose!

THIS is my problem... I have 24-48 hours to make a starter (being a pilot sucks)... so, if I make my starter and cool it, it wont START like I want it to, meaning little propogation. The other issue is getting my wort to 50F... so, what is a guy to do?
I only have Friday-Sunday to make a starter and brew a beer... I COULD brew the beer and then chill it in my fridge ovenight, then pitch my starter which would give my starter more time to actually propogate yeast.....?

The Pol said:

Yeah, I guess we will both have to see how it works out. I cannot imagine that 5.5 gallons of 68F liquid will cool to 50F too quickly for the yeasties, especially after pitching a starter. And, any diacetyl will be cleaned up with the diacetyl rest later... God Speed!

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id like to disagree with you on that, i did a Pilsner Urquell clone in april i cooled the wort down to around 75-80F pitched the yeast placed my glass carboy into an Igloo Icecube loaded with ICE cubes, 2 frozen 2 liters and some water in the bottom and my fermentation took around 4 days to start. A couple problems i ran into. I Never aclamated the yeast to the cold, You are supposed to drop the temp a few degrees every day or something, i took it from 75 to below 50 in around a day. and i didnt pitch a big enough starter. i should have went with a 2 qt starter instead of a 1qt.

The Pol said:

THIS is my problem... I have 24-48 hours to make a starter (being a pilot sucks)... so, if I make my starter and cool it, it wont START like I want it to, meaning little propogation. The other issue is getting my wort to 50F... so, what is a guy to do?
I only have Friday-Sunday to make a starter and brew a beer... I COULD brew the beer and then chill it in my fridge ovenight, then pitch my starter which would give my starter more time to actually propogate yeast.....?

Click to expand...

Well, you need a big starter regardless. You could make the starter this weekend, let it ferment out, and then refrigerate it until it's time to brew. Then you can make sure to decant your spent wort which can lead to off flavors and still have a nice sized starter. Just decant, and put a little fresh wort in the day before you want to brew. Then you could actually pitch your starter at high krausen at the right temperature, and have a large enough starter, too. Just a thought! A nice lager starter should really big large and if you make it at room temperature (which is fine, to grow the yeast), you want to decant that spent wort. I would NOT let it sit overnight without pitching the yeast, though.

Ok, well I am brewing on Saturday, no way around it. I am going to start my starter Friday morning as early as I can, at 50F... let it ferment for 30 hours and pitch into my (immersion and ice bath chilled wort) at 50-55F... then to my new lagering fridge that I just bought on craigslist... I am sure that it will work, but I will be relegated to pitching the WHOLE starter at high krausen into my beer... we will see how that all works out. If my damn LHBS had the proper yeast, Id have done a starter last weekend, let it ferment and settle out and decanted... but, of course, they carry VERY little if any lager vials. Hope it is ok...

For lagers, I start a week ahead. Starter & step up to a BIG starter.
Chill the wort to the minimum yeast temp, & pitch the decanted BIG starter of about the same temp.

That is great, but I didnt have the luxury, my LHBS did not have the yeast in time, and then I am an airline pilot, so I am home for three days, then gone for four days... hopefully the extral light DME doesnt mess up my beer too much and my starter is sufficient... Hell, if the date on the yeast is pretty recent, I may just brew another Heffe with my saved yeast and make the Helles in a couple weeks when I can get a starter going a week in advance...

bradsul said:

This reply is not necessarily for the OP but Kaiser has written an article on the wiki about this. It's extremely informative and well worth the read.

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First time I have read this one and I'll second that. It is really informative.

Thanks

The Pol said:

Ok, well I am brewing on Saturday, no way around it. I am going to start my starter Friday morning as early as I can, at 50F... let it ferment for 30 hours and pitch into my (immersion and ice bath chilled wort) at 50-55F... then to my new lagering fridge that I just bought on craigslist... I am sure that it will work, but I will be relegated to pitching the WHOLE starter at high krausen into my beer... we will see how that all works out. If my damn LHBS had the proper yeast, Id have done a starter last weekend, let it ferment and settle out and decanted... but, of course, they carry VERY little if any lager vials. Hope it is ok...

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That should work. I wouldn't be surprised to see a big lag time, but it should still be ok. Make sure you oxygenate your cooled wort extra well, since you're starting with a small amount of yeast. Good luck!

I will probably brew my Hugh Heffe again... I saved a vial of that yeast, I can easily make a starter for it, I trust I will have a good yeast count at high krausen in 30 hours.
I do not trust that I will have a sufficient yeast count with the lager yeast, therefore I am worried about a slow, compromised ferment, and I do not want to mess up a lager, it is enough trouble anyway. If I dont have the time to do it RIGHT, then I don't want to do it at all. I will pick up my vial of WLP833 and put it in the fridge, as long as it has a month or so left on the vial (it is NEW, so it should) then I will just brew it a little later. Ideally I wanted to male a 1/2 gallon starter and let it ferment out for a week, then chill and deacant... that did not happen.

Pol