Anyone Actually Used Vinegar in a Witbier Recipe?

So I'm reading the witbier recipe @ BYO. I've made 3 witbiers in the past, but never used vinegar or acidulated malt. I'm brewing a wit tomorrow and was wondering if anyone's ever actually added vinegar as they call for---and if so, was it a thumbs up or thumbs down?

Also: can I find lactic acid at this late date somewhere other than a HBS?

I have not, nor have I heard of this before. Has anyone had the Pierre, South Dakota Witbier before? I have never picked up a vinegar flavor in wit beers before. But maybe I need to start looking

I have noticed that some American Wit beers (Zoomer Wit for example) have a different profile than the tradisional examples (Hoegarden...). Maybe this is their secret?

Evan! said:

Also: can I find lactic acid at this late date somewhere other than a HBS?

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You can find it in yogurt. I've used some yogurt to sour a mash once, worked alright.

the recipe says to add the lactic acid to the secondary just before bottling/kegging. So I guess I have some time. I just don't have a LHBS, so I'd have to order it.

Professor Frink said:

You can find it in yogurt. I've used some yogurt to sour a mash once, worked alright.

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Very interesting. Was it regular or non-fat, and how much did you use?

I feel the slightly sour component is one of the things that 'makes' a Wit, but I can't agree that using Acetic acid is the same. Lactic acid has a much mellower (not sharp) profile to it and I am not saying it wouldn't work, but to look at the history of the Wit tells us they simply soured the mash to some degree, which is obviously not an Acetobacter that is working.

Interesting, as I have a Wit planned soon. I plan on souring as I always have, just separate a portion of the mash hold it at around 120-130 °F for about 24 hours and then draining the resulting liquid into the boil. Either that or I may just lauter and sparge, and then inoculate with some liquid I kept from a green tomato pickle I did..just a tiny bit to get things rolling.

The biggest problem I had last time I made a sour beer with the souring pre-boil is that in my inexperience with it, I added the soured mash back into the tun with the rest of the mash. Bad idea. Conversion took forever and a day, I think mainly due to the pH drop.

Not sure where you can pick up straight Lactic acid, other than online.

Glibbidy said:

Very interesting. Was it regular or non-fat, and how much did you use?

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It was non-fat yogurt, and I checked to make sure it had Lacto Bacillis.

Well, I'm brewing it tomorrow---so short of someone from my local homebrew club coming through with some sauer malt, I'm gonna have to order some lactic acid and add to the secondary---I don't have time to do a long acid mash.

we are drinking that wit recipe now. but we did not add the lactic acid or the vinegar. we did add zest of a big navel orange with the spices at end of boil and let steep 15 minutes before cooling. and it is very good beer real close to a hoegarden at 18 days in the bottle.

i've used the acidulated malt before in a few different hefeweizens. it was really nice...just don't use too much

1 oz in a 5-gallon batch is enough. adds a nice sour tanginess to it. 2 oz puts it over the top and 3 oz will turn your beer into a weird soda drink.

i haven't tried it with a wit, tho. that could be a good idea.

DeathBrewer said:

1 oz in a 5-gallon batch is enough. adds a nice sour tanginess to it. 2 oz puts it over the top and 3 oz will turn your beer into a weird soda drink.

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Are you saying this just about hefe's? I realize you don't want much sourness at all in a hefe, if any. But if you're looking to get noticeable sourness in a finished beer, my experience is that 2oz is not over the top at all. I'd say you'd need quite a bit more. I have not used sour malt in a hefe so I can't speak to that, but in other beers I've used 8oz+ and the beers weren't that sour.

Are you going to add the vinegar Evan! ? They don't say what kind of vinegar to use, but I'd try not to get use any 'live' vinegar where you'd introduce the aceto/etc. into the beer.

I doubt I'll add the vinegar unless I really think it needs it.

So here's another question: an hbt'er here in town has an acid blend (citric/malic/tartaric) that he uses to balance sweet meads. Do you think that I could substitute this for the lactic in my wit and achieve the same end?

Evan! said:

I doubt I'll add the vinegar unless I really think it needs it.

So here's another question: an hbt'er here in town has an acid blend (citric/malic/tartaric) that he uses to balance sweet meads. Do you think that I could substitute this for the lactic in my wit and achieve the same end?

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I've tried it, it definitely tastes different then straight lactic acid in higher amounts, but with the little bit you'll be using it might be difficult to notice. I think you'd be fine, just add it slooowwllyyy and taste. You can add too much very easily/quckly if you're not careful. Mix it in a glass and see if you like the taste first probably.

landhoney said:

I've tried it, it definitely tastes different then straight lactic acid in higher amounts, but with the little bit you'll be using it might be difficult to notice. I think you'd be fine, just add it slooowwllyyy and taste. You can add too much very easily/quckly if you're not careful. Mix it in a glass and see if you like the taste first probably.

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awesome. I'll do that. I mean, we're only talking, at most, an ounce of the stuff in 5 gals, just to give it that slight acidic bite.

Evan! said:

awesome. I'll do that. I mean, we're only talking, at most, an ounce of the stuff in 5 gals, just to give it that slight acidic bite.

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My guess is not even that much, its very potent. What you could do is make a specific/set solution of grams per mL(acid blend and warm water) or whatever weight/volume measure you want, then measure a specific amount of the beer into a glass. Add two drops of the acid solution to the beer, take a small taste, and repeat until you get where you want. The volume of beer is getting smaller with each sip, but at least it will give you a reference when you decide how much solution you want to add to the entire batch for a first try. If it's; 5 drops in 500mL then its 'X' number of drops in 5 gallons, or whatever.
This is pretty basic, but I don't want you to add an ounce, ruin the beer, and then blame me.

landhoney said:

Are you saying this just about hefe's? I realize you don't want much sourness at all in a hefe, if any. But if you're looking to get noticeable sourness in a finished beer, my experience is that 2oz is not over the top at all. I'd say you'd need quite a bit more. I have not used sour malt in a hefe so I can't speak to that, but in other beers I've used 8oz+ and the beers weren't that sour.

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i don't like sourness in most beers...not really my thing. i know you're a fan, tho, and you probably have more experience with the acid malt than i do

i found the recipe i used with 2 oz really added to the tanginess...almost a tart taste to it. i wouldn't say it was sour, and it was actually really good. it was the hefe that i added 3 oz to...ugh, that tasted like soda for some reason.

i've actually been meaning to recreate my american hefeweizen, which was simply munich, wheat, acid malt and tettnanger...i cleared the beer with irish moss and a secondary (american, heh.) that was a damn fine recipe. again not a real pronounced sour taste, tho.

i don't think you'd want a huge sourness in a wit.

well, turns out one of the guys in my local homebrew club was placing an order, so he just tacked it onto that. So I'll use lactic, and I'll start with 1/2 oz (recipe in BYO calls for 1oz) and see how it tastes.

Next time just do an acid rest at 86-126°F

I used to do a gum rest at 113F and that overlaps the acid rest range.

Denny's Evil Concoctions said:

Next time just do an acid rest at 86-126°F

I used to do a gum rest at 113F and that overlaps the acid rest range.

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I thought about that---but another poster said that the acid rest needs to be ~24hrs. Is that right?

I did mine for 20 mn and actually found my wheats to acidic for my taste. Could me me malt, I dunno.

Evan! said:

I thought about that---but another poster said that the acid rest needs to be ~24hrs. Is that right?

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Don't confuse an acid rest and a sour mash - two wholly different things.

Personally, I'd avoid the vinegar completely, it's just a flavor I don't like in beer at all. I tried Rodenbach Grand Cru this past weekend, I couldn't get past the vinegar character. It's not the same as a lacto sourness at all.

the_bird said:

Don't confuse an acid rest and a sour mash - two wholly different things.

Personally, I'd avoid the vinegar completely, it's just a flavor I don't like in beer at all. I tried Rodenbach Grand Cru this past weekend, I couldn't get past the vinegar character. It's not the same as a lacto sourness at all.

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Yes, when I mentioned 24 hours what I mean is you allow the mash (or wort) to actually obtain sourness from the activity of Lactobacillus, and possibly some other players. Then when it reaches the desired level of sourness you halt the activity by boiling.

And that is the same way I feel about Acetic acid. It is a stronger acid than Lactic acid, and to me it comes through and seems to be more 'up front' than Lactic acid which to me, seems to come on the back end like an aftertaste. Although I do love beers that are sour, each one imho has it's place.

the_bird said:

Don't confuse an acid rest and a sour mash - two wholly different things.

Personally, I'd avoid the vinegar completely, it's just a flavor I don't like in beer at all. I tried Rodenbach Grand Cru this past weekend, I couldn't get past the vinegar character. It's not the same as a lacto sourness at all.

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Well, first, I've never done an acid rest or a sour mash...so I don't know what the difference really is---other than what's been said here---from which I surmise that an acid rest is shorter, where a sour mash is much longer.

Secondly, the BYO recipe said that vinegar was optional, to taste. I'm not planning on adding any, because, like you, I don't like the vinegar element in beers. I once had a bad batch of the Duchesse de Borgogne on tap at the Capitol Ale House---and normally, I love me some Duchesse---and instead of simply being a flemish sour like I'd had in the bottle version, this stuff tasted like a balsamic vinaigrette! The waitress, before I ordered it, was like "I don't like that stuff, it tastes like salad dressing!", but I assured her that I was experienced in the Duchesse and figured she was just put off by flemish sours. Apparently, she'd never had Duchesse before, when it wasn't bad, and so she couldn't tell that this was a bad keg. So---I highly doubt, after reading everything here and remembering that episode, that I'll do anything past the lactic acid.

Evan! said:

Well, first, I've never done an acid rest or a sour mash...so I don't know what the difference really is---other than what's been said here---from which I surmise that an acid rest is shorter, where a sour mash is much longer.

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Acid rest is Enzymatic. A rest step druing your mash that lowers PH.

Sour mash is bacterial.